Not By Works

[SoulWeaver]

Maybe he is saying that God sees him as sinless as a result of what Jesus did on the cross?

I don't think that's what he said... I've just read that he said to have power to be sinless... Apostle John must have missed the memo... I am still waiting for a straight explanation from him what he believes about himself, instead of trying to hide behind Bible verses and pretend to answer yet deflect questions...

 

[SoulWeaver]

@Micaiah-imla do you agree that there were occasions since you first believed Jesus that you have stumbled in any sin - thought, word, action?

YES NO

 

[Micaiah-imla]

@Micaiah-imla do you agree that there were occasions since you first believed Jesus that you have stumbled in any sin - thought, word, action?

YES NO

Philippians 3:15
[15] ...and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

No.

Struggle can only happen if you still have a desire to satisfy the flesh of your body (the old man which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts - Ephesians 4:22).

There have been times of struggle with worldly affairs. I lost a job years ago and was forced to stay with ungodly relatives. This was a time of great testing. I remember one time raising my voice at God while I was alone in the basement asking why I was going through all this, why was I here. But through it all I never turned my back on God.

Today some worldly affairs are still trying, but remaining faithful to heavy Bible reading has kept me strong in the Lord.

I aim to spend most of my downtime in reading and meditating on the word which leaves little to no opportunity for stray thoughts to cross my mind; and in the rare event that a brief fleshly thought comes to my mind, I quickly bring it into captivity:

2 Corinthians 10:5
[5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

 

[EleventhHour]

Philippians 3:15
[15] ...and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

No.

Struggle can only happen if you still have a desire to satisfy the flesh of your body (the old man which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts - Ephesians 4:22).

There have been times of struggle with worldly affairs. I lost a job years ago and was forced to stay with ungodly relatives. This was a time of great testing. I remember one time raising my voice at God while I was alone in the basement asking why I was going through all this, why was I here. But through it all I never turned my back on God.

Today some worldly affairs are still trying, but remaining faithful to heavy Bible reading has kept me strong in the Lord.

I aim to spend most of my downtime in reading and meditating on the word which leaves little to no opportunity for stray thoughts to cross my mind; and in the rare event that a brief fleshly thought comes to my mind, I quickly bring it into captivity:

2 Corinthians 10:5
[5] Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

What a heavy burden you have put yourself under, that is not of God.

 

[BillG]

I don't think that's what he said... I've just read that he said to have power to be sinless... Apostle John must have missed the memo... I am still waiting for a straight explanation from him what he believes about himself, instead of trying to hide behind Bible verses and pretend to answer yet deflect questions...

Can't say I've seen that.
Point me towards it please, then I can read it.

I was just wondering if he was trying to convey a point but not presenting well.

The reason I posted what I did was because maybe being hidden in Christ then God sees us as sinless based on the righteousness of Jesus being appropriated to us?

 

[Micaiah-imla]

You have no sin?

Only Jesus can make that claim.

Why?

John 14:12-13
[12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. [13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

We will do greater works than Christ; he said so.

And if you ask him to give you power over sin, can’t he do so? He said he’ll do whatever you ask him for.

Believest thou these things?

Have you any faith?

 

[Micaiah-imla]

What a heavy burden you have put yourself under, that is not of God.

Actually my burden is light.

 

[BillG]

Why?

John 14:12-13
[12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. [13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

We will do greater works than Christ; he said so.

And if you ask him to give you power over sin, can’t he do so? He said he’ll do whatever you ask him for.

Believest thou these things?

Have you any faith?

You confuse the verse and what it means and apply it to overcoming sin.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

I am still waiting for @Micaiah-imla to explain to us the difference between "not having sin" (in present) and "having ceased from sin"

You should not be waiting on me friend. You should be searching the scriptures to see if what I say is in scripture. I have referenced scripture for all my claims and they continue to fall on OSAS deafened ears.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

You confuse the verse and what it means and apply it to overcoming sin.

Did Jesus tell us the limitations of his word?

 

[SoulWeaver]

Can't say I've seen that.
Point me towards it please, then I can read it.

I was just wondering if he was trying to convey a point but not presenting well.

The reason I posted what I did was because maybe being hidden in Christ then God sees us as sinless based on the righteousness of Jesus being appropriated to us?

That interpretation was effectively denied in conversation, see this post and the one after

 

[BillG]

Did Jesus tell us the limitations of his word?

He told us to interpret his words correctly and apply it.

Sorry but I say you have taken those verses and not interpreted them correctly and therefore not within the context of what he was saying.

It has nothing to do with not sinning or becoming sinless.

 

[Micaiah-imla]

He told us to interpret his words correctly and apply it.

Can you point me to that scripture please?

 

[Micaiah-imla]

It has nothing to do with not sinning or becoming sinless

So says you.

 

[BillG]

Can you point me to that scripture please?

No you point it out to me because you have interpreted it therefore there must be a reason why. So please tell me how and why you believe it relates to being or becoming sinless.

The verses you quoted were to do with works.

 

[BillG]

So says you.

Yes so says me and Jesus.

You should have quoted the concourse with adulteress woman to make your point if there such a point to make

 

[BillG]

So says you.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/john-14-12.html

https://www.gotquestions.org/greater-works.html

 

[SoulWeaver]

Why?

John 14:12-13
[12] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. [13] And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

We will do greater works than Christ; he said so.

And if you ask him to give you power over sin, can’t he do so? He said he’ll do whatever you ask him for.

Believest thou these things?

Have you any faith?

Apostles were able to transfer the power of the Holy Spirit by laying on hands to whomever wanted to receive it.
Considering that even greater works are reserved for you, are you able to lay hands on any other believer in Jesus so they can also become sinless like you?

Let me tell you, all who espouse sinless perfectionism doctrine are never able to extend healing to other believers like the apostles did - they only talk about how THEY are "sinless", and that's where the story ends. What a useless and fruitless teaching.

That's as if the apostles would say to crippled people who came to be healed, "we have functioning legs and can walk, read the Bible so you can also walk" but this isn't what they did, they shared the power by laying on hands, the people who wanted to be healed already demonstrated faith by hoping and asking for healing. But you and others who teach these things are not capable of extending the power you speak of to the other believers. None of you can share the power to make others sinless who wish to be sinless. Which means either 1. you don't actually have power of God in you, or 2. you are not sinless.
(I am not saying the first, I disagree with your notion of being sinless the way you claim it, sinless by not ever stumbling as opposed to imputed righteousness)

 

[BillG]

Apostles were able to transfer the power of the Holy Spirit by laying on hands to whomever wanted to receive it.
Considering that even greater works are reserved for you, are you able to lay hands on any other believer in Jesus so they can also become sinless like you?

Let me tell you, all who espouse sinless perfectionism doctrine are never able to extend healing to other believers like the apostles did - they only talk about how THEY are "sinless", and that's where the story ends. What a useless and fruitless teaching.

That's as if the apostles would say to crippled people who came to be healed, "we have functioning legs and can walk, read the Bible so you can also walk" but this isn't what they did, they shared the power by laying on hands, the people who wanted to be healed already demonstrated faith by hoping and asking for healing. But you and others who teach these things are not capable of extending the power you speak of to the other believers. None of you can share the power to make others sinless who wish to be sinless. Which means either 1. you don't actually have power of God in you, or 2. you are not sinless.
(I am not saying the first, I disagree with your notion of being sinless as you claim it, sinless by not ever stumbling)

And that's the context of the verses he quoted and you expand above to refute his context.

Jesus could only be in one place doing supernatural. From miracles to words of knowledge and so on.

So he had was saying I must go back to the Father because when I do you will receive the Holy Spirt (all believers) and then go out and do those works.

The works are not greater than what Jesus did but many many belivers will do this works there greater (in number) are the works.

 

[SoulWeaver]

And that's the context of the verses he quoted and you expand above to refute his context.

Jesus could only be in one place doing supernatural. From miracles to words of knowledge and so on.

So he had was saying I must go back to the Father because when I do you will receive the Holy Spirt (all believers) and then go out and do those works.

The works are not greater than what Jesus did but many many belivers will do this works there greater (in number) are the works.

I agree with you that this isn't a correct interpretation in that context. I just conceded to his understanding to show what is wrong with this teaching. It upsets me how people who present this teachings are never able to heal others or help others be sinless. Everything ends with the claims of themselves being sinless, and beating other believers on the head. If you have a power from God, then by all means extend it to others so they can also be healed and empowered. That's fruitless, and not the way power of God had been used throughout the Bible.