Human righteousness

[Bbrdrd]

One of the key contentions of Augustine Christianity is the inherent sinfulness of man. This claim is built on a handful of Scripture such as Isaiah 64:6 and Romans 3:10 which are held up to claim that not only are we all guilty before God but we are equally guilty. Yet the Bible seems to present a different picture regularly citing individuals for their righteousness:
These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, [g]blameless in his [h]time; Noah walked with God. (Genesis 6:9)
There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil. (Job 1:1)
even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves,” declares the Lord God. (Ezekiel 14:14)
and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (2 Peter 2:7)

Even further, the psalms indicate righteousness is possible and David attributes himself with such righteousness:
The Lord has rewarded me according to my righteousness;
According to the cleanness of my hands He has recompensed me. (Psalm 18:20)
Vindicate me, O Lord, for I have walked in my integrity,
And I have trusted in the Lord [b]without wavering. (Psalm 26:1)

Looking to the common verses used to support the inherent unrighteousness of man highlights the point further, such as Romans 3:10 which is a quotation of Psalm 14 and in Psalm 14 we have:
There they are in great dread,
For God is with the righteous generation. (Psalm 14:5)

and before Isaiah makes his statement in 64:6 he speaks of the faithfulness of the Lord to the righteous:
For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear,
Nor has the eye seen a God besides You,
Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him.
5 You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways. (Isaiah 64:4-5a)

With all of these testimonies from the Bible itself how can we understand as absolute man's unrighteousness rather than taking such verses as poetic or rhetorical fluorishes?

 

[Dino246]

Jeremiah27:9 The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

 

[tourist]

Jeremiah27:9 The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

I certainly can't.

 

[Bbrdrd]

Jeremiah27:9 The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

Not quite an answer to the question, especially considering that one also is juxtaposed with a picture of the righteous man in Jeremiah 17:7-8 which references Psalm 1.

 

[AndyMaleh]

One of the key contentions of Augustine Christianity is the inherent sinfulness of man. This claim is built on a handful of Scripture such as Isaiah 64:6 and Romans 3:10 which are held up to claim that not only are we all guilty before God but we are equally guilty. Yet the Bible seems to present a different picture regularly citing individuals for their righteousness:
These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, [g]blameless in his [h]time; Noah walked with God. (Genesis 6:9)
There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil. (Job 1:1)
even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves,” declares the Lord God. (Ezekiel 14:14)
and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (2 Peter 2:7)

Even further, the psalms indicate righteousness is possible and David attributes himself with such righteousness:
The Lord has rewarded me according to my righteousness;
According to the cleanness of my hands He has recompensed me. (Psalm 18:20)
Vindicate me, O Lord, for I have walked in my integrity,
And I have trusted in the Lord [b]without wavering. (Psalm 26:1)

Looking to the common verses used to support the inherent unrighteousness of man highlights the point further, such as Romans 3:10 which is a quotation of Psalm 14 and in Psalm 14 we have:
There they are in great dread,
For God is with the righteous generation. (Psalm 14:5)

and before Isaiah makes his statement in 64:6 he speaks of the faithfulness of the Lord to the righteous:
For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear,
Nor has the eye seen a God besides You,
Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him.
5 You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways. (Isaiah 64:4-5a)

With all of these testimonies from the Bible itself how can we understand as absolute man's unrighteousness rather than taking such verses as poetic or rhetorical fluorishes?

You are bringing up a valid point. Righteousness is in fact very important. It is the source of practical power (from God) for every Christian in daily living. Those who ignore righteousness stumble and fall receptively until they have repented for every sin they are conscious of.

People fail to put those Bible verses in context. They forget many of the New Testament verses about accepting people as sinners were a reaction to the extreme that the Pharisees and Jews of the time practiced, in which they overly shamed anyone who fell a tiny little bit short of God's Law, neglecting respect for people's limits and forgetting God's grace completely.

Unfortunately, some modern-day Christians took the other extreme of assuming God's grace is going to be there all the time even if they sinned repetitively without repentance because Paul said people are "sinners" while neglecting what Jesus Christ said:

“If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me." (John 14:23-24 ESV).

"4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned." (John 15:4-6 ESV)

".10If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. " (John 15:10 ESV)

Saying otherwise is just a lame excuse for slacking off on following Jesus Christ's commandments and being lazy about doing one's best (albeit no more is needed) for God and his people. As such, society crumbles around many modern Christians today and yet they remain in denial about their responsibility in all of this as if God's grace is supposed to do everything for them while denying that they are not truly receiving any grace precisely because of lack of righteousness. Ironically, that is pretty much what happened to the Jews in the Old Testament whenever they neglected to follow God's commands.

The good news is that this can all be turned around pretty quickly by taking responsibility, repenting and correcting the consequences of all conscious sins, and resolving to always follow Jesus Christ's commandments no matter what.

 

[soberxp]

how do you think about these verse
(Mat)
9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

(Mak)
2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

(Luk)
5:32
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

 

[Bbrdrd]

how do you think about these verse
(Mat)
9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

(Mak)
2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

(Luk)
5:32
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

The audience he was addressing has to be considered there. Especially as it seems to me someone who is righteous would be fully aware of their true shortcomings, recognizing their sin for what it is. So it seems Jesus was using something akin to sarcasm for the pharisees unmerciful approach to the law.

What I mean to address is not simply an acknowledgment of being sinners saved by grace, but instead to challenge the common usage of verses such as Jeremiah 17:9 and Isaiah 64:6 to justify a view of man that is far more pessimistic than I think the Biblical picture warrants.

 

[soberxp]

The audience he was addressing has to be considered there. Especially as it seems to me someone who is righteous would be fully aware of their true shortcomings, recognizing their sin for what it is. So it seems Jesus was using something akin to sarcasm for the pharisees unmerciful approach to the law.

What I mean to address is not simply an acknowledgment of being sinners saved by grace, but instead to challenge the common usage of verses such as Jeremiah 17:9 and Isaiah 64:6 to justify a view of man that is far more pessimistic than I think the Biblical picture warrants.

for Jeremiah 17:9
People's normal feelings come from the heart. When a normal feeling inside is magnified infinitely may cause deveitful and wicked, that is what this text describes

and Isaiah 64:6
such as if I said :"you are sinners,should do repent."
or if I said:"we are sinners,We should repent."
do You think which one tone is easy to accept by people.

 

[Bbrdrd]

for Jeremiah 17:9
People's normal feelings come from the heart. When a normal feeling inside is magnified infinitely may cause deveitful and wicked, that is what this text describes

and Isaiah 64:6
such as if I said :"you are sinners,should do repent."
or if I said:"we are sinners,We should repent."
do You think which one tone is easy to accept by people.

It's not the verses I find problematic, but that they seep into all sorts of sermons and statements out of context. They're some of the most abused verses in the Bible.

Too often I've heard "all our works are as filthy rags" to try to claim that there are no works that please God in their own right, despite the Bible saying things like:
And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. (Hebrews 13:16 NASB)

and

He has told you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justice, to love [a]kindness,
And to walk [b]humbly with your God? (Micah 8:6)

 

[soberxp]

It's not the verses I find problematic, but that they seep into all sorts of sermons and statements out of context. They're some of the most abused verses in the Bible.

Too often I've heard "all our works are as filthy rags" to try to claim that there are no works that please God in their own right, despite the Bible saying things like:
And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. (Hebrews 13:16 NASB)

and

He has told you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justice, to love [a]kindness,
And to walk [b]humbly with your God? (Micah 8:6)

I don't know exactly who you mean,I see what you mean. You're worried about the words of Bible being abused.
Luke 6:41-42
(Proverbs 27:5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.)

 

[p_rehbein]

FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

1 John 2:29 - If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Romans 5:1-5 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Read More...)

1 John 3:7 - Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Isaiah 33:15-17 - He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; (Read More...)

Psalms 106:3 - Blessed [are] they that keep judgment, [and] he that doeth righteousness at all times.

1 Peter 5:10 - But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you].

1 Peter 3:14 - But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

Romans 10:4 - For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Matthew 5:20 - For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

2 Timothy 2:22 - Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Romans 8:4-6 - That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Read More...)

1 John 5:18 - We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Ezekiel 18:5-9 - But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, (Read More...)

Philippians 1:11 - Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Proverbs 2:5-20 - Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. (Read More...)

James 1:4 - But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

 

[Bbrdrd]

FOOD FOR THOUGHT:

1 John 2:29 - If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Romans 5:1-5 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Read More...)

1 John 3:7 - Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Isaiah 33:15-17 - He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; (Read More...)

Psalms 106:3 - Blessed [are] they that keep judgment, [and] he that doeth righteousness at all times.

1 Peter 5:10 - But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you].

1 Peter 3:14 - But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy [are ye]: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

Romans 10:4 - For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Matthew 5:20 - For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

2 Timothy 2:22 - Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Romans 8:4-6 - That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Read More...)

1 John 5:18 - We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Ezekiel 18:5-9 - But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, (Read More...)

Philippians 1:11 - Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

Proverbs 2:5-20 - Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. (Read More...)

James 1:4 - But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

What's interesting about all of these verses is they could be said to simply be of the new birth rather than disspelling the peculiar notion of being totally dead in sin.

The ones I curated were at least in part chosen because they demonstrate that righteousness was ascribed to men prior to any post-cross regeneration. It hints towards the salvation that is in Christ being the same across time though the full revelation of what it means to be righteous did not occur until Jesus. The closest prior to that I would say are probably best found in the questions God posed to Job and the answers that are implied or stated.

 

[Nehemiah6]

One of the key contentions of Augustine Christianity is the inherent sinfulness of man.

The term used is *total depravity* and it does not really take into account (1) the influence of the conscience on human beings, (2) the righteous acts of men who are not regenerated, and (3) the works of the Law, which are done in good faith. It also fails to address the fact that the unregenerate can indeed respond to the Gospel under the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus Calvinists teach that sinners are regenerated BEFORE they saved (which is total nonsense).

The Ten Commandments are embedded in the human conscience.
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the Law shall be judged by the Law;
13 For not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the Law, do by nature the things contained in the Law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the Law [the Ten Commandments] written in their hearts, their conscience [συνειδήσεως (syneidēseōs)] also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my Gospel.

This tells us that those without the Law and without the Gospel have their conscience to show them right from wrong. Therefore many unsaved have this human righteousness, and do righteous deeds, act ethically and morally, etc.

But the Gospel tells us that this is not enough, since unless a human being has the imputed righteousness of Christ, God does not see him/her as righteous enough to enter Heaven. And by the deeds of the Law shall no man be justified in the sight of God. Hence the need for the preaching of the Gospel and the conversion of sinners.