For those who are following this and are in agreement, I would like to bring to your attention that there is no such thing as "the dead in Christ" AFTER the resurrection of Christ. The only people that have ever been dead in Christ are all of those that were in Christ BEFORE Christ paid the price of their redemption.
The Biblical Resurrection
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so you've got 3 groups of people in Christ at the time He descends to snatch us up with Him:
the Bible mentions only two groups, however:
either no one whose bodies died after ~ 33AD is part of the Bride Christ returns to take with Him or, alternately, your definition of the word "resurrection" is not God's definition of the word "resurrection"
- "the dead in Christ"
- those in Christ whose bodies are in graves
- those in Christ whose bodies are living at that time
the Bible mentions only two groups, however:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
- "the dead in Christ"
- those "which are alive and remain"
- ((that's your group #3))
either no one whose bodies died after ~ 33AD is part of the Bride Christ returns to take with Him or, alternately, your definition of the word "resurrection" is not God's definition of the word "resurrection"
well now you're using two different definitions of resurrection, aintcha?
because you were saying it means passing from being dead in sin to alive in God, totally non-physical.
so if you've got Jesus being "resurrected" you've either Got Jesus dead in his own sins, an enemy of God, and then later redeemed in a completely non-physical process, or you've got resurrection meaning a physical rising from the grave in Christ's case but not for anyone else's.
because you were saying it means passing from being dead in sin to alive in God, totally non-physical.
so if you've got Jesus being "resurrected" you've either Got Jesus dead in his own sins, an enemy of God, and then later redeemed in a completely non-physical process, or you've got resurrection meaning a physical rising from the grave in Christ's case but not for anyone else's.
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here's something the Bible says on the topic:
not sure how that jives with "resurrection" only applying to spiritual rebirth. unitarianism??
Jesus says something strikingly similar:
see a problem with your OP yet?
is Jesus talking about the damned being spiritually reborn to damnation?
. . and have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow,
that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
(Acts 24:15)
the wicked are resurrected. actually -- "shall be" -- it hadn't happened yet at the time Acts was written. not sure how that jives with "resurrection" only applying to spiritual rebirth. unitarianism??
Jesus says something strikingly similar:
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(John 5:29)
the Lord talks about a future resurrection unto damnation. see a problem with your OP yet?
is Jesus talking about the damned being spiritually reborn to damnation?
again I disagree yes it does the very word of God says that too. Jesus is the very example of what we can expect. Jesus did not die spiritually He died a physical death because of sin. God cannot die. We die physically because of sin in the context of flesh. Jesus overcame that death and we shall too in HIM. The spiritual death is the relationship with God that was broken because of sin until Christ reconciled us to GOD. for us to have eternal life we must be connected to the Eternal God.
(Joh 11:26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Christians have been raised from death to life through Christ. Christ said he that believeth in him will never die.
Where do you come up with a group of "the dead in Christ" after Jesus rose from the dead?
Understanding who the dead in Christ are, is the key to understanding the verses you quoted.
Christians have been raised from death to life through Christ. Christ said he that believeth in him will never die.
Where do you come up with a group of "the dead in Christ" after Jesus rose from the dead?
Understanding who the dead in Christ are, is the key to understanding the verses you quoted.
(Act 24:14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
(Act 24:15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
The things WRITTEN (past tense) in the law and in the prophets - They themselves (law and PROPHETS) allow that there SHALL BE (future to the law and prophets) a resurrection of the dead.
I never said the unjust would not be raised and I have no idea what kind of body they will be raised in. I would assume it's some kind of eternal body since they will suffer for eternity.
I don't see a problem yet.
(Act 24:15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
The things WRITTEN (past tense) in the law and in the prophets - They themselves (law and PROPHETS) allow that there SHALL BE (future to the law and prophets) a resurrection of the dead.
I never said the unjust would not be raised and I have no idea what kind of body they will be raised in. I would assume it's some kind of eternal body since they will suffer for eternity.
I don't see a problem yet.
Those who were dead in Christ were the Old Testament saints, that's what "though he were dead" is talking about. Those that are alive have experienced that same resurrection and we will never die again. That's why I keep saying there is no such thing as the "dead in Christ" after the resurrection of Christ. Christ paid for their sins just like he paid for ours and allowed us and them to have eternal life.
(1Th 4:16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The dead in Christ were the Old Testament saints, they have already risen, they rose with Christ. There are no dead in Christ anymore and never will be.
The dead in Christ were the Old Testament saints, they have already risen, they rose with Christ. There are no dead in Christ anymore and never will be.
look bro i just think you are confusing terms.
the scripture speaks of "resurrection" both implicitly and explicitly with reference to the raising from the dead of the body. what we have undergone in being born again is "redemption" -- spiritually, for now, while we wait for, as Romans 8 puts it, "the redemption of our bodies"
Christ speaks of resurrection both of the saved and the damned; "resurrection" in God's definition is therefore not referring to the new birth, which only the believer experiences. it is specific to the raising of the body.
as what Paul wrote in Romans indicates, for those of us who believe and are being saved, the resurrection is part of our redemption: the final thing that we look forward to. it's no surprise then that there are parallels between our particular spiritual redemption and our particular physical resurrection.
IMO you're calling 'resurrection' what is accurately called 'redemption'
you cannot be correct to say that 'resurrection' has nothing to do with the raising of the physical body, because Christ's rising from the dead, physically, is called resurrection. you further cannot be correct to describe resurrection as the spiritual renewing of our minds and hearts, because Christ says both the unredeemed and the redeemed will experience resurrection: the unbeliever resurrected to damnation, and the believer resurrected to inherit life.
your proof text in the OP is, as @CS1 pointed out, completely in the context of physical resurrection of the body. when Paul asks if there is no resurrection, why are some people being baptized for the dead? he's not talking about people being baptized for others who are spiritually dead but still alive in the flesh. that'd be nonsense: why not those people get their own living flesh baptized?? he's talking about people who have literally physically died, with some wahoos ((*cough* LDS)) being baptized ((again physically)) as a surrogate, hoping to secure redemption for them when they are eventually resurrected physically.
i understand you aren't denying physical resurrection.
but, as i said in the opening of this post, to my understanding you are inappropriately calling 'redemption' resurrection. redemption is the broader term; the redeemed are resurrected later -- because all are resurrected, whether redeemed or not. Jesus says so. for the redeemed, resurrection is part of redemption. for the unredeemed, resurrection is to judgement. in either case resurrection is a term speaking of the physical body. for us, because our resurrection is to life, and is part of our redemption, it is to be expected that it is self-similar. but the resurrection of the unbeliever is not; it's different. i'm repeating it again because it's key to understanding why you're using the word wrong: the unredeemed are also resurrected.
You are right, I was confusing terms, this is a new view for me and I haven't worked out all the details yet. Thanks for pointing out my error.
I agree, and the redemption of our bodies is The Resurrection.
This is the part that I got confused on. I was thinking that the death of the old man and the creation of the new man was The Resurrection but I agree that it's not although I would consider it a resurrection but not The Resurrection.
Even though I was wrong on part of what I said, I wasn't wrong on all points. It is correct to say that the resurrection has nothing to do with raising the physical body and that was the point of the verses that I started this thread with. The Resurrection is the raising up of SEEDS, not bodies.
The same for the resurrection of the unjust. Those bad seeds (spirits) were and will be raised into new bodies.
If the context is physical resurrection of the earthly body then what is "It" in this verse?
(1Co 15:42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
What is the corruption that "it" is sown in? The corruption is this corrupt earthly body. So how can the corruptible body be sown in the corruptible body?
What is the incorruption that "it" is raised in? I think you would agree that the incorruption is the new body.
"It" has to be the spirit. The spirit is sown in these corrupt bodies, it is raised in the new incorruptible bodies.... The Resurrection is the raising of "it", not the corruptible earthly body.
I appreciate you bringing my error to my attention on this, you have helped me understand my own position (lol) much better. To summarize what I believe, I believe The Resurrection is when the spirits of men, both just and unjust, take on their new bodies. And just to be clear, I don't believe the unjust get the same glorified bodies that we get.
I agree, and the redemption of our bodies is The Resurrection.
This is the part that I got confused on. I was thinking that the death of the old man and the creation of the new man was The Resurrection but I agree that it's not although I would consider it a resurrection but not The Resurrection.
Even though I was wrong on part of what I said, I wasn't wrong on all points. It is correct to say that the resurrection has nothing to do with raising the physical body and that was the point of the verses that I started this thread with. The Resurrection is the raising up of SEEDS, not bodies.
The same for the resurrection of the unjust. Those bad seeds (spirits) were and will be raised into new bodies.
If the context is physical resurrection of the earthly body then what is "It" in this verse?
(1Co 15:42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
What is the corruption that "it" is sown in? The corruption is this corrupt earthly body. So how can the corruptible body be sown in the corruptible body?
What is the incorruption that "it" is raised in? I think you would agree that the incorruption is the new body.
"It" has to be the spirit. The spirit is sown in these corrupt bodies, it is raised in the new incorruptible bodies.... The Resurrection is the raising of "it", not the corruptible earthly body.
I appreciate you bringing my error to my attention on this, you have helped me understand my own position (lol) much better. To summarize what I believe, I believe The Resurrection is when the spirits of men, both just and unjust, take on their new bodies. And just to be clear, I don't believe the unjust get the same glorified bodies that we get.
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Paul in Romans is not speaking of the redemption of bodies after death. He's speaking of the coming deliverance from persecution at the hand of the Jews which the body of Christ was suffering.
Paul speaks of the body (Christians as a whole back in his time):
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Its singular, not plural bodies. If Paul was speaking of individuals he would have used the plural in the Greek.
Paul stated their salvation and redemption as the collective body of Christ at that time was near:
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
The redemption Paul speaks of is the same redemption that Jesus spoke of when Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman Armies:
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Paul speaks of the body (Christians as a whole back in his time):
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Its singular, not plural bodies. If Paul was speaking of individuals he would have used the plural in the Greek.
Paul stated their salvation and redemption as the collective body of Christ at that time was near:
Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
The redemption Paul speaks of is the same redemption that Jesus spoke of when Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman Armies:
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
I think the dead in Christ are both the OT saints and those that died during the 1st century 1611. They were alive though their bodies were dead. I guess the term Paul used is a bit confusing.
Consider in the book of Revelation we see those under the altar awaiting resurrection into their spiritual bodies:
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
As John stated at the beginning things "which must shortly come to pass". The judgement of the Jews for persecuting and slaying the 1st century believers was for John to happen shortly, those than had been slain were told "rest yet for a little".
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Consider in the book of Revelation we see those under the altar awaiting resurrection into their spiritual bodies:
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
As John stated at the beginning things "which must shortly come to pass". The judgement of the Jews for persecuting and slaying the 1st century believers was for John to happen shortly, those than had been slain were told "rest yet for a little".
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.