Calvinism and Context?

[cv5]

Can we show from scripture that Judas did not make choices?
"Son of destruction" again is very expressive way of meaning "author of his own demise."

God's foreknowledge is not always causation.
And while yes God directly causes many things, I will not agree that He creates a portion of humanity solely for destruction with no choice/ability to believe.

Absolutely NO, the term does not mean "author of his own demise".
It means he was born unto eternal ruin.
The only one other person in scripture holds the title "son of destruction" and that is the antichrist.

The antichrist, like Judas, holds a critical prophetic role in Scripture, one that is indelible and cannot possibly be altered in any way whatsoever by his own will or or the will of any created being, not man, not any angel, not even Satan himself!

No, but when God's express Will exerts its self, nothing else and no one else in the universe can alterative or forestall it as God Himself clearly states in the script over and over and over again.

 

[EleventhHour]

Absolutely NO, the term does not mean "author of his own demise".
It means he was born unto eternal ruin.
The only one other person in scripture holds the title "son of destruction" and that is the antichrist.

The antichrist, like Judas, holds a critical prophetic role in Scripture, one that is indelible and cannot possibly be altered in any way whatsoever by his own will or or the will of any created being, not man, not any angel, not even Satan himself!

No, but when God's express Will exerts its self, nothing else and no one else in the universe can alterative or forestall it as God Himself clearly states in the script over and over and over again.

Are you telling me Judas made no choices... he was compulsed throughout his whole life to do what he did?
If he had not choices at all he could not be held responsible for what he did.
I guess you are okay with that.

 

[EleventhHour]

Absolutely NO, the term does not mean "author of his own demise".
It means he was born unto eternal ruin.
The only one other person in scripture holds the title "son of destruction" and that is the antichrist.

The antichrist, like Judas, holds a critical prophetic role in Scripture, one that is indelible and cannot possibly be altered in any way whatsoever by his own will or or the will of any created being, not man, not any angel, not even Satan himself!

No, but when God's express Will exerts its self, nothing else and no one else in the universe can alterative or forestall it as God Himself clearly states in the script over and over and over again.

As well, you make Jesus a deceiver by inviting Judas to be an apostle, giving him the same responsibilities, yet setting him up for failure?

Jesus invites Judas to join in good faith yet knowing that Judas will fail.

 

[EleventhHour]

Absolutely NO, the term does not mean "author of his own demise".
It means he was born unto eternal ruin.
The only one other person in scripture holds the title "son of destruction" and that is the antichrist.

The antichrist, like Judas, holds a critical prophetic role in Scripture, one that is indelible and cannot possibly be altered in any way whatsoever by his own will or or the will of any created being, not man, not any angel, not even Satan himself!

No, but when God's express Will exerts its self, nothing else and no one else in the universe can alterative or forestall it as God Himself clearly states in the script over and over and over again.

What else I find very interesting just like the NOSAS crowd likes to use Judas as someone who lost his salvation, now Calvinism uses him for absolute determination.

 

[cv5]

My pastor thinks Judas will literally be resurrected as the antichrist

I would consider changing pastors lol.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep, as I said unto you. (John 10:26)

This statement shows divine foreknowledge. God already knows who will NOT believe, therefore they have excluded themselves from being sheep. It is definitely not because God has excluded them, since that would violate the Gospel.

 

[cv5]

This still does not necessitate that God created a robot... but that by his own choices he went to eternal ruin.

Judas's course was set. And he did not set it. He did however participate in it.

The same could be said of Caiaphas when he prophesied. Caiaphas prophesied not because he faithful, not because he was prayerful, and certainly not because he was willing to do the will of God. God simply stepped in and overruled the entire situation and that's it that's all.

John 11:51
Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation,

 

[Nehemiah6]

whom He predestined, ​

these He also called; ​

whom He called, ​

these He also justified; ​

and whom He justified, ​

these He also glorified. ​

​

we're supposed to believe what's written.

And if we HONESTLY BELIEVE what is written, we will see the purpose of predestination here (the preceding verse):

For whom he did foreknow, (FOREKNOWLEDGE)

he also did predestinate (PREDESTINATION)

to be conformed to the image of his Son, (PURPOSE OF PREDESTINATION)

that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(THE PERFECTION OF THE SAINTS AS BRETHREN IN CHRIST)

Does "conformed to the image of His Son" means justification or does it mean glorification? As yo can see it is absurd to imagine that God predestines anyone for justification, since He offers eternal life freely to all -- "whosoever". So you must have removed all the "whosoevers" from your Bible.

 

[cv5]

Are you telling me Judas made no choices... he was compulsed throughout his whole life to do what he did?
If he had not choices at all he could not be held responsible for what he did.
I guess you are okay with that.

Indeed. And others are "compulsed" to take actions contrariwise. Like Peter for example who Christ prayed for......a peculiar and special intercession. A gracious benefit of immeasurable value that is provided for the chosen and elected alone.

 

[EleventhHour]

Indeed. And others are "compulsed" to take actions contrariwise. Like Peter for example who Christ prayed for......a peculiar and special intercession. A gracious benefit of immeasurable value that is provided for the chosen and elected alone.

To clarify an entire life of compulsion with no choice ever ... what you are presenting are snippets and I understand that.. what I do not agree with it that Judas had no choices ever,

 

[EleventhHour]

Judas's course was set. And he did not set it. He did however participate in it.

And God holds him accountable for what Judas was forced to do by Him?
Okay

 

[cv5]

And if we HONESTLY BELIEVE what is written, we will see the purpose of predestination here (the preceding verse):

For whom he did foreknow, (FOREKNOWLEDGE)

he also did predestinate (PREDESTINATION)

to be conformed to the image of his Son, (PURPOSE OF PREDESTINATION)

that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(THE PERFECTION OF THE SAINTS AS BRETHREN IN CHRIST)

Does "conformed to the image of His Son" means justification or does it mean glorification? As yo can see it is absurd to imagine that God predestines anyone for justification, since He offers eternal life freely to all -- "whosoever". So you must have removed all the "whosoevers" from your Bible.

Actually it's absurd to imagine that He doesn't.

By the way you missed "called", which is absolutely critical in the process.
And called comes before justified.
Which is precisely the pattern that is manifest in the process of the redemption of Paul.
Paul was ONLY CALLED on the Emmaus road but he was not yet justified. And after his salvation Paul declares that he was in fact one of the elect, chosen from his mother's womb. Though he was chosen before he was born he was called of course during his adulthood.

Gal 1:15
But when God, who set me apart even from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

2Tim 2:10
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of the elect, so that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

I'm going to be very honest I cannot believe anyone could possibly stumble at Romans chapter 8, and misinterpret it to say something that it doesn't. To me it's incredible.

A word study on the term foreknew and predestinate should make the meanings perfectly clear and clarify Romans chapter 8.

 

[cv5]

To clarify an entire life of compulsion with no choice ever ... what you are presenting are snippets and I understand that.. what I do not agree with it that Judas had no choices ever,

According to scripture, Judas lived an entire life of compulsion with no choice ever. As far as his own salvation is concerned. Judas was on the path of ruin from the day he was born......according to prophecy. You are going to have to argue that there was some small scintilla of (ahem) chance that prophecy could have or would have been broken in this critical matter of Judas as it relates to the betrayal of Christ.

 

[EleventhHour]

According to scripture, Judas lived an entire life of compulsion with no choice ever.

And how does God hold him accountable for his actions?

 

[cv5]

This statement shows divine foreknowledge. God already knows who will NOT believe, therefore they have excluded themselves from being sheep. It is definitely not because God has excluded them, since that would violate the Gospel.

Disagree. And again, do a word study on foreknowledge or forknew. You are totally blowing it there. This misuse is distorting the proper perspective.

According to you, John 10:22 should be rewritten as:
But you do not believe therefore you are not of My sheep.

No, Jesus is clear and saying that the cause (because) of their unbelief is the fact that they are not (chosen by the Father) not of His sheep. The cause (choosing) preceeds the effect (unbelief).

 

[Bbrdrd]

then you aren't responding to my post.

I did in that one since I pointed out that the words used for elect and chosen are about persons by necessity of their function. The only one of the three words that would be something unusual if it didn't is the one that can refer to other things.

The big thing with "elect" and "chosen" is that they refer to different groups in different Scripture, sometimes a specific individual, sometimes groups. Then there's the differences in what they are speaking of being elected and chosen for since that varies as well. Making a blanket statement on those terms is inappropriate as each instance requires contextual analysis for what the scope is.

So that leaves "predestined" as the only word that your claim has the possibility of having weight with.

 

[cv5]

And God holds him accountable for what Judas was forced to do by Him?
Okay

Nope. Not the case at all. Simply put God did not CHOOSE to exert His Will to do anything TO PREVENT Judas's sinning!

In other words Gods choice to do or not to do something is the salient factor in salvation.
Put another way, the Bible declares over and over again that those who are truly saved are saved by God's gracious choice. God's election and predetermination to set His infinite love upon some. Not all, but only those who He has chosen by grace alone through faith and that not of ourselves, this faith itself being a gift from God.

I have to tell you that this doctrine is set forth in quite indisputable terms.

 

[Bbrdrd]

Acts 1:16-18 “Brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled that the Holy Spirit foretold through David concerning Judas—who became the guide for those who arrested Jesus for he was counted as one of us and received a share in this ministry.” (Now this man Judas acquired a field with the reward of his unjust deed, and falling headfirst he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.

John 17:11-12 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Matthew 26:24-25 For I must die just as was prophesied, but woe to the man by whom I am betrayed. Far better for that one if he had never been born.” Judas, too, had asked him, “Rabbi, am I the one?” And Jesus had told him, “Yes.”

You realize on this thread you're contradicting both your out for why God is not the author of sin, and what you posted from Sproul trying to make double predestination palpable?

Here you are saying God's predestination is such that He made Judas sin, because it was prophesied. Making God the author of Judas' sin, and making Judas' predestination symmetric with predestination to salvation.

 

[cv5]

I did in that one since I pointed out that the words used for elect and chosen are about persons by necessity of their function. The only one of the three words that would be something unusual if it didn't is the one that can refer to other things.

The big thing with "elect" and "chosen" is that they refer to different groups in different Scripture, sometimes a specific individual, sometimes groups. Then there's the differences in what they are speaking of being elected and chosen for since that varies as well. Making a blanket statement on those terms is inappropriate as each instance requires contextual analysis for what the scope is.

So that leaves "predestined" as the only word that your claim has the possibility of having weight with.

You are correct. The term election aka chosen does have different flavors of application. One application IS meant primarily as election to service for Israel. Not so in the new testament when it is applied to Christians. The term election has a far different aspect to it, a far different application.

May I point out that the term election in Strongs 1586 and 1589 carry with them the quality of foreordination and predestination. Indisputably.

https://biblehub.com/greek/1586.htm
https://biblehub.com/greek/1589.htm

1586 eklégomai (from 1537 /ek, "out of" and 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – properly, to select (choose) out of, by a highly deliberate choice (i.e. real heart-preference) with a definite outcome (as with the destination of divine selection for salvation).

Cognate: 1589 eklogḗ (from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – properly, selection out of and to a given outcome; (theologically) election. See 1586 (eklegomai).

 

[cv5]

You realize on this thread you're contradicting both your out for why God is not the author of sin, and what you posted from Sproul trying to make double predestination palpable?

Here you are saying God's predestination is such that He made Judas sin, because it was prophesied. Making God the author of Judas' sin, and making Judas' predestination symmetric with predestination to salvation.

Sorry I'm not falling for it this time. I'm not going to engage with you in vainly hurling mutual condemnations.

But I will correct you in saying that Judas was born a sinner and he sinned all by himself with no help at all from God. Furthermore I will say that God chose not exert Himself for salvation on behalf of Judas for reason that He and He alone knows.

Our philosophical musings are utterly irrelevant and impotent.