i'm posting this and then that's it.
OP: Re: Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh
my answer: a resounding YES, and AMEN.
if it is a conceptual understanding, what is that understanding based on? a need to construct or deconstruct THE ETERNAL GOD?
the GodHead is revealed to man in the Holy Scriptures, even in the words of Jesus Emmanuel (God with us) as Triune.
because, as you've said, "persons" is discrete, i have no problem with it UNTIL it leads people into imagining tritheism, (polytheism) which is just another form of Arianism.
i have no problem with "God The Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit", i know God is ONE.
no, not three separate "WHOs" : ONE. God is ONE.
Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD (3068. Yhvh) our God, the LORD is one.
yes, the Word is God's OWN "who".
but The Logos alone is not YHVH.
The Father is GREATER quantitatively than LOGOS alone.
no, The Holy Spirit is not a SEPARATE WHO.
God is ONE.
and i agree with the embedding of the Triunity of the GodHead (the Divine Nature).
yes, Jesus is the embodiment of the GodHead
yes, He is.
Trinitarians know this.
Trinitarian language is totally Biblical: it's when man goes in and makes 3 gods we have a problem.
John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,a and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own,b and his own peoplec did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’” 16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God,d who is at the Father’s side,e he has made him known.
yes...as we've seen.
yes.
THEOS obviously applies to Father.
but the Logos alone is not The Father.
and neither is Pater called Logos..
PATER is Father.
He is GREATER quantitativley than the Incarnate Christ.
this is still 'Trinitarian' language, and it is still Biblical. and vice versa.
the issue you have, and i concur completely is when we cross the line into separate entities - constructing a "seeable" GodHead (which man is easily wont to do) outside The Lord JESUS CHRIST. we can go the other way though also, and i'm not comfortable deconstructing God, either.
which is why i can't for the life of me understand why we must intrude into the eternal GODHEAD when:
Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.
nope.
even if you were, i'm ok with that.
you affirm the Deity of Christ.
(and as much as you might not like to hear it, you also affirm the Triune GodHead)
Nehemiah 9:6
“You are the LORD (3068. Yhvh), you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you.
Colossians 1:6
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
In the beginning
αρχη noun - dative singular feminine
arche ar-khay': beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.
the Word
λογος noun - nominative singular masculine
logos log'-os: something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ) -- account, cause, communication, concerning, doctrine, fame, have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
with God
θεον noun - accusative singular masculine
theos theh'-os: a deity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very -- exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).
Word was God.
~
my last thought on it is this:
i have no problem whatsoever affirming a Trinitarian Creed because i know what is meant AND expressed clearly in scripture (i just know the persons part is coming and affirm it privately as discrete, not distinct).
John 14
I Am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life
1“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;a believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?b 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.”c 5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.d From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
12“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask mee anything in my name, I will do it.
OP: Re: Jesus Christ was God manifest in the Flesh
my answer: a resounding YES, and AMEN.
Very wise; "persons" is discrete, not distinct. Agreed about tritheism. But where does that leave a conceptual understanding? Still three separate "who"s?
the GodHead is revealed to man in the Holy Scriptures, even in the words of Jesus Emmanuel (God with us) as Triune.
because, as you've said, "persons" is discrete, i have no problem with it UNTIL it leads people into imagining tritheism, (polytheism) which is just another form of Arianism.
i have no problem with "God The Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit", i know God is ONE.
no, not three separate "WHOs" : ONE. God is ONE.
Deuteronomy 6:4
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD (3068. Yhvh) our God, the LORD is one.
The question is: Is the Word God's OWN "who" or a separate "who"? And is the HS yet a separate "who"? OR... Is God one "who"? IOW... How many minds does God have?
but The Logos alone is not YHVH.
The Father is GREATER quantitatively than LOGOS alone.
no, The Holy Spirit is not a SEPARATE WHO.
God is ONE.
Though this source imbeds the inference of "triune"; notice the reference to the embodiment of the Godhead.
yes, Jesus is the embodiment of the GodHead
And is this "person" the prosopon (G4383) and hupostasis (G5287) of God?
Trinitarians know this.
Trinitarian language is totally Biblical: it's when man goes in and makes 3 gods we have a problem.
John 1
The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,a and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own,b and his own peoplec did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’” 16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God,d who is at the Father’s side,e he has made him known.
Can any actual Scripture be utilized to specifically show the Father and Holy Spirit each as a prosopon or hupostasis?
Do you perceive that God and Father are interchangeable terms?
THEOS obviously applies to Father.
but the Logos alone is not The Father.
and neither is Pater called Logos..
If God IS the Father... Son and HS are diminished. THIS is the self-undermining fallacy of Trinity doctrine. God is F-S-HS. The Father is... the Father
He is GREATER quantitativley than the Incarnate Christ.
"Where" is God's Soul? Scripture speaks of it. Is it metaphorical or literal? I would hate to have to view all scriptural soul references as euphemistic; which would also lead to all spirit references being euphemistic.
Even Trinity is often referred to as Tripartite. Any way one looks at it, God is comprised of constituent "parts". F-S-HS cannot individually be the whole of God to the exclusion of the others. The primary issue is how distinct or discrete they are.
Even Trinity is often referred to as Tripartite. Any way one looks at it, God is comprised of constituent "parts". F-S-HS cannot individually be the whole of God to the exclusion of the others. The primary issue is how distinct or discrete they are.
the issue you have, and i concur completely is when we cross the line into separate entities - constructing a "seeable" GodHead (which man is easily wont to do) outside The Lord JESUS CHRIST. we can go the other way though also, and i'm not comfortable deconstructing God, either.
which is why i can't for the life of me understand why we must intrude into the eternal GODHEAD when:
Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.
(And I hope you know by now... but I'm not being adversarial toward you as I tend to be with some others who are wholly indoctrinated and disingenuous.)
even if you were, i'm ok with that.
you affirm the Deity of Christ.
(and as much as you might not like to hear it, you also affirm the Triune GodHead)
Nehemiah 9:6
“You are the LORD (3068. Yhvh), you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you.
Colossians 1:6
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
In the beginning
αρχη noun - dative singular feminine
arche ar-khay': beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.
the Word
λογος noun - nominative singular masculine
logos log'-os: something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ) -- account, cause, communication, concerning, doctrine, fame, have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
with God
θεον noun - accusative singular masculine
theos theh'-os: a deity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very -- exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).
Word was God.
~
my last thought on it is this:
i have no problem whatsoever affirming a Trinitarian Creed because i know what is meant AND expressed clearly in scripture (i just know the persons part is coming and affirm it privately as discrete, not distinct).
John 14
I Am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life
1“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;a believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?b 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.”c 5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.d From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
12“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask mee anything in my name, I will do it.
Last edited: