Calvinism and Context?

[Bbrdrd]

Why do you disagree? Are you judging my heart, something only God knows?

My sleep last night was awful, because I couldn't shake my concern for you. I turned over the words of how to approach you in the gentlest manner regarding my concerns for your salvation to try to get you to understand I am not expressing it as an accusation but out of concern because my soul is troubled when I think of what your fate may be.

I persist and am being strategic in what I say to you not out of spite, not out of malice. Not because I see you as my enemy.

I persist because everything you've said tells me you are caught in a counterfit, a false joy that is fleeting. A peace that will not last.

And the only way to escape it is by repenting and believing the gospel. By fully embracing that Jesus died for you personally and if you confess Him as Lord you will be risen in glory when He returns.

I want that for you, so I will take your lashings where they seem necessary and I will provoke you where it seems necessary.

If in the end you despise me for it, if it makes you murderously angry then so be it. If on the other hand I win you as a sister, what a treasure.

 

[posthuman]

a lot of modern theology fails to see it as negative

Augustine's notes on the book of Job treat Elihu as though he were prophesying by the Spirit of God. his understanding was that the scripture itself portrays him this way. it's not a 'modern' innovation to refrain from condemning him.

we've demonstrated already that all of the 'seeing it as negative' you presented thus far is unfounded when compared with scripture.

even if it is God on trial in Babylonian court, the appearance of God destroys the entire paradigm. taking the message recorded in scripture as an whole ((as Hebrews 1)) God in His revelation of Himself to man first set forth His glory in the creation, then sent His heralds the prophets, then Himself appeared in Christ the Son, who came first to mediate and will come again to judge.
when God appears and speaks to Job, through the Babylon glasses you propose, it is settled that the case cannot stand because it is the Judge of all things Himself against whom complaint is being brought. God's presence casts away any aspersion to the pretense of Him being held to account by some human judicial complaint.
this, which the presence of God declares, is exactly again what Elihu heralds: that any presumption of 'trial' is a sham, invalid, and impossible -- a paper-thin & hypocritical hoax, vanity, and foolishness, and God will not hear it.

so assume for the sake of argument we are meant to see this whole narrative as God on trial in Babylonian court. within that paradigm God declares that paradigm as wicked. that's a snake eating itself, a self-destructive interpretation.
so do we cling to that interpretation and use it to dismiss Elihu as wicked because he speaks out of turn in an illegitimate court proceeding when he points out that the presumed court proceeding is illegitimate?

that's not a convincing reason to see Elihu as wrong. that is a convincing reason to see him as right.

 

[cv5]

But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:8

And no one is saved until they are saved.

“But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.”

As I have said before, the Bible is clear that the KIND of love that God has for the unsaved is that of sheer pity and mercy. God does not FIRST love us for our MERIT, CHARACTER, or RIGHTEOUSNESS.
So what was for the nation Israel so it is for ourselves.

Jesus did not die on the cross to INCREASE our righteousness!
Jesus did not die on the cross to INCREASE our glory!
Jesus did not die on the cross to INCREASE our worthiness!

Jesus died on the cross to give us what we NEVER HAD to begin with. After the fall that is.

 

[EleventhHour]

As I have said before, the Bible is clear that the KIND of love that God has for the unsaved is that of sheer pity and mercy. God does not love us for our MERIT, CHARACTER, or RIGHTEOUSNESS.
So what was for the nation Israel so it is for ourselves.

Jesus did not die on the cross to INCREASE our righteousness!
Jesus did not die on the cross to INCREASE our glory!
Jesus did not die on the cross to INCREASE our worthiness!

Jesus died on the cross to give us what we NEVER HAD to begin with. After the fall that is.

Did Jesus die and bear the sins of all humanity?

 

[Bbrdrd]

Augustine's notes on the book of Job treat Elihu as though he were prophesying by the Spirit of God. his understanding was that the scripture itself portrays him this way. it's not a 'modern' innovation to refrain from condemning him.

we've demonstrated already that all of the 'seeing it as negative' you presented thus far is unfounded when compared with scripture.

even if it is God on trial in Babylonian court, the appearance of God destroys the entire paradigm. taking the message recorded in scripture as an whole ((as Hebrews 1)) God in His revelation of Himself to man first set forth His glory in the creation, then sent His heralds the prophets, then Himself appeared in Christ the Son, who came first to mediate and will come again to judge.
when God appears and speaks to Job, through the Babylon glasses you propose, it is settled that the case cannot stand because it is the Judge of all things Himself against whom complaint is being brought. God's presence casts away any aspersion to the pretense of Him being held to account by some human judicial complaint.
this, which the presence of God declares, is exactly again what Elihu heralds: that any presumption of 'trial' is a sham, invalid, and impossible -- a paper-thin & hypocritical hoax, vanity, and foolishness, and God will not hear it.

so assume for the sake of argument we are meant to see this whole narrative as God on trial in Babylonian court. within that paradigm God declares that paradigm as wicked. that's a snake eating itself, a self-destructive interpretation.
so do we cling to that interpretation and use it to dismiss Elihu as wicked because he speaks out of turn in an illegitimate court proceeding when he points out that the presumed court proceeding is illegitimate?

that's not a convincing reason to see Elihu as wrong. that is a convincing reason to see him as right.

You're misunderstanding my argument entirely especially in that you think I am claiming God is on trial. Job is the one on trial, with the accusation being he is being punished for a secret unconfessed sin.

You haven't taken the time to understand my argument and so you keep misconstruing it and addressing anciliary concerns.

 

[EleventhHour]

You're misunderstanding my argument entirely especially in that you think I am claiming God is on trial. Job is the one on trial, with the accusation being he is being punished for a secret unconfessed sin.

You haven't taken the time to understand my argument and so you keep misconstruing it and addressing anciliary concerns.

Plus I would not trust much of what Augustine has to say with regards to truth and scripture.
He has been the cause of so much errant understanding over the years.

 

[Bbrdrd]

Plus I would not trust much of what Augustine has to say with regards to truth and scripture.
He has been the cause of so much errant understanding over the years.

Augustine said a lot of good things, but unfortunately he mistook the practice of infant baptism as Biblically decreed and combined it with an unfortunate Latin translation of the Greek preposition "ek" to form a sweeping doctrine that entirely redefined every aspect of theology by transforming Biblical anthropology in one fell swoop.

 

[posthuman]

Plus I would not trust much of what Augustine has to say with regards to truth and scripture.
He has been the cause of so much errant understanding over the years.

the point is that it is not a modern understanding that comparing someone to Elihu isn't an insult.

 

[posthuman]

You're misunderstanding my argument entirely especially in that you think I am claiming God is on trial. Job is the one on trial, with the accusation being he is being punished for a secret unconfessed sin.

You haven't taken the time to understand my argument and so you keep misconstruing it and addressing anciliary concerns.

you're misunderstanding the book if you think it's about Job, not about God.

 

[cv5]

Did Jesus die and bear the sins of all humanity?

More selective radio silence eh?
Let's just say that my latest post put the nail in the coffin on this thread as far as your position on election is concerned. Done and done.

As to your question, I'm sure you can come to a sound conclusion by reading a stack of reformed theology commentaries.
.

 

[Bbrdrd]

the point is that it is not a modern understanding that comparing someone to Elihu isn't an insult.

Even with that you fail to capture the nuance of what I stated on the matter. I did not say it was entirely a modern innovation, but that the bulk of commentors leaned heavy into denouncing Elihu up until about 100 years ago when it swung the other way and most now seem to see him as being wholly in agreement with God. Cherry picking a historic commentator, no matter how influential, doesn't weigh against that statement since I didn't deny that there were some who picked up on the positive presentations in spite of the negative primers.

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

@dcontroversal @EleventhHour .....Interpret please.........is God “alive and active”.?

For the word of God is alive and active.
Sharper than any double- edged sword,it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit,joints and marrow,it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.


Would you say God is alive?..
What does it mean when it says..Sharper than any double edged sword,it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit?

It penetrates,how can His word penetrate,if it’s not alive and active?

I think the word supernatural is used....because God’s word is alive and active.
Same as faith....it’s not dead,it’s alive and active...
Why is faith alive and active ?
Do you believe faith is alive and active?

I have found many believe that God exists in their head....but his word has not penetrated their heart.
What does that mean?

Penetrate my heart mean?

Head knowledge is useless without heart knowledge...

John 4:24

 

[Bbrdrd]

you're misunderstanding the book if you think it's about Job, not about God.

I'm well aware it's about God, but the type of literature it is (a theodicy in an epic poem) uses a couple of different frames for conveying a message. The verdict about Job is given before the trial begins with God declaring Job innocent using a forensic term. But the trial on earth centers around Job, focusing on what he does or doesn't do to bring the suffering on himself.

 

[posthuman]

anciliary concerns

the topic is very clear: is Elihu speaking wickedly or is Elihu speaking righteously.
this is binary, and the two possible premises are he's right or he's wrong.

correcting false accusations used as justification for the premise that he's wrong isn't any more 'ancillary' than proposing he's wrong on the basis of violating some kind of decorum.

 

[jackrosie]

Why do you disagree? Are you judging my heart, something only God knows?

My sleep last night was awful, because I couldn't shake my concern for you. I turned over the words of how to approach you in the gentlest manner regarding my concerns for your salvation to try to get you to understand I am not expressing it as an accusation but out of concern because my soul is troubled when I think of what your fate may be.

I persist and am being strategic in what I say to you not out of spite, not out of malice. Not because I see you as my enemy.

I persist because everything you've said tells me you are caught in a counterfit, a false joy that is fleeting. A peace that will not last.

And the only way to escape it is by repenting and believing the gospel. By fully embracing that Jesus died for you personally and if you confess Him as Lord you will be risen in glory when He returns.

I want that for you, so I will take your lashings where they seem necessary and I will provoke you where it seems necessary.

If in the end you despise me for it, if it makes you murderously angry then so be it. If on the other hand I win you as a sister, what a treasure.

Please get over yourself and stop wallowing,....you are confused,there is no question about it..you talk such jibberish....if you Doudt your salvation don’t take it out on me.

I have never ever doubted my saving,never and never will,I have a personal relationship with God ,when people like you come along and trust me many have....it strengthens my faith.
You are so miserable in your own walk that you try and take others down with you.
Ain’t happening Sir...Born again 28 yrs....Praise God.

 

[Bbrdrd]

Please get over yourself and stop wallowing,....you are confused,there is no question about it..you talk such jibberish....if you Doudt your salvation don’t take it out on me.

I have never ever doubted my saving,never and never will,I have a personal relationship with God ,when people like you come along and trust me many have....it strengthens my faith.
You are so miserable in your own walk that you try and take others down with you.
Ain’t happening Sir...Born again 28 yrs....Praise God.

If I am insane, it is for God. If I make sense, it is for you.

 

[EleventhHour]

More selective radio silence eh?
Let's just say that my latest post put the nail in the coffin on this thread as far as your position on election is concerned. Done and done.

As to your question, I'm sure you can come to a sound conclusion by reading a stack of reformed theology commentaries.
.

So you also agree with limited atonement?
You know I wish you could just be forthright in what you believe.

 

[Blue_Of_Lake]

I have to the assume then that you are asserting that you were saved and did not know the Gospel by what you keep repeating incessantly.

Scripture is clear faith comes by hearing....

King James Bible
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Jesus is called the Word, Jesus and God are 1. Jesus and God are Spirit and 1 of them -- Jesus -- is the Word of God and they are 1. so... if God Speaks to your heart, mind through the Spirit, which of course God can do (He being a Spirit), then the Word -- IS -- speaking -- to -- You.

King James Bible
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God and Jesus (The Word) are not confined to a Book only or The Words from/in that same Book. God (and Jesus the Word) are not Books and are Not Words. They are Spirit.

Jesus and the Samaritan Woman
…23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth. 25The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When He comes, He will explain everything to us.”…

◄ John 4:24 ►

 

[posthuman]

I'm well aware it's about God, but the type of literature it is (a theodicy in an epic poem) uses a couple of different frames for conveying a message. The verdict about Job is given before the trial begins with God declaring Job innocent using a forensic term. But the trial on earth centers around Job, focusing on what he does or doesn't do to bring the suffering on himself.

if the book is to be understood as Job on trial in the court of his friends there's no reason for God to be involved at all. God's words are just as inadmissible as Elihu's on the same grounds that God is speaking out of turn.

it's Job's own argument by declaring his innocence and supposed unfair treatment that it is God who is being put to trial - countersuit in your Babylonian interpretation - and it is God's and Elihu's response that such a thing is bogus.

the court-of-Hammurabi-framework view still puts Elihu in good light and delegitimizes itself by the fact it the book doesn't end with chapter 31

 

[cv5]

Augustine's notes on the book of Job treat Elihu as though he were prophesying by the Spirit of God. his understanding was that the scripture itself portrays him this way. it's not a 'modern' innovation to refrain from condemning him.

we've demonstrated already that all of the 'seeing it as negative' you presented thus far is unfounded when compared with scripture.

even if it is God on trial in Babylonian court, the appearance of God destroys the entire paradigm. taking the message recorded in scripture as an whole ((as Hebrews 1)) God in His revelation of Himself to man first set forth His glory in the creation, then sent His heralds the prophets, then Himself appeared in Christ the Son, who came first to mediate and will come again to judge.
when God appears and speaks to Job, through the Babylon glasses you propose, it is settled that the case cannot stand because it is the Judge of all things Himself against whom complaint is being brought. God's presence casts away any aspersion to the pretense of Him being held to account by some human judicial complaint.
this, which the presence of God declares, is exactly again what Elihu heralds: that any presumption of 'trial' is a sham, invalid, and impossible -- a paper-thin & hypocritical hoax, vanity, and foolishness, and God will not hear it.

so assume for the sake of argument we are meant to see this whole narrative as God on trial in Babylonian court. within that paradigm God declares that paradigm as wicked. that's a snake eating itself, a self-destructive interpretation.
so do we cling to that interpretation and use it to dismiss Elihu as wicked because he speaks out of turn in an illegitimate court proceeding when he points out that the presumed court proceeding is illegitimate?

that's not a convincing reason to see Elihu as wrong. that is a convincing reason to see him as right.

I have encountered the writings of a number of commentators who (by their own admission) were looking through Babylonian goggles and looking through Assyrian goggles when divining supposed truths from the Bible.

And even I could see that it was a total fail. Talk about extinguishing the Glory of God.
Total disaster.