When are we saved ?

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throughfaith

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#281
Aug 4, 2020
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#281
Adstar said:
Gods foreknowledge and predestination reassures us that God cannot Fail.. God knew from the beginning of creation the entire future of His universe creation in PERFECT clarity.. He knew how it was going to all turn out from the very start.. Down to the detail of knowing every human being that would ever live, knowing all the thoughts they would ever think.. I believe God knew when every blade of grass would grow and how tall every blade of grass would grow and how many atoms each individuel blade of grass would be composed of..

Prophecy of God can be trusted because God has foreseen Everything.. So Every Christian should be 100% confident that absolutely no evil cunning scheme from satan or his allies will ever stand in the way of Gods eternal plan.. God is like a chess player who has seen all the moves of a game before He starts the game.. satan has NO chance and was defeated before he came into existence..

I am 100% confident that God wins.. And that reinforces my Faith in the LORD beyond measure..
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Knowledge is not causative . You have predestination backwards. After we become a son through the new birth we are then predestined to the redemption of the body . Only in him .Its about Jesus and being in him . Only in him do we have anything or can we be anything. its not about us and a gnostic election .
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#282
Jul 24, 2016
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#282
throughfaith said:
Colossians. 2

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Notice its THROUGH FAITH
No I think your mixing up Gods knowledge with determination. God gave Adam dominion. We have the choice . We are ONLY known as a Son after regeneration. Until then we are lost and without hope ,without God . Ephesians 2 .
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
What your sharing is a paradigm .
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You're either not comprehending my posts. Or your just being difficult. It could be that you're understanding is being blocked/ blinded,, I hope for you that this is not the case.. I said before maybe twice before in this thread.. I am not a calvinist.. But the Word of God must be accepted in it's entirety and therefore God does foreknow all who will be conformed to the image of His Son..

I do not believe God forces one person to be saved and forces another to be damned.. I believe God simply foreknows who will accept the moving of the Holy Spirit and be saved and who will resist the Holy Spirit and be damned..
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#283
Jan 12, 2019
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#283
throughfaith said:
Nothing is ' secured ' for anyone in the sense being predestined to the redemption of the body until the atonement is received.
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Trying to understand time from God's point of view will be tough for us, its like asking a fish to describe water.

God is outside time, so its possible for him to know what we will do beforehand, and simultaneously still gives us free will to decide there and then, in the present.

We won't understand how this work fully, until heaven.
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

Senior Member
#284
Nov 17, 2015
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#284
throughfaith said:
Knowledge is not causative . You have predestination backwards. After we become a son through the new birth we are then predestined to the redemption of the body . Only in him .Its about Jesus and being in him . Only in him do we have anything or can we be anything. its not about us and a gnostic election .
Click to expand...
Correct me if I am wrong, so what you are saying is that predestination for service and not salvation and that to be predestine to receive something until the redemption of our 'body'? Thanks
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#285
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#285
Adstar said:
You're either not comprehending my posts. Or your just being difficult. It could be that you're understanding is being blocked/ blinded,, I hope for you that this is not the case.. I said before maybe twice before in this thread.. I am not a calvinist.. But the Word of God must be accepted in it's entirety and therefore God does foreknow all who will be conformed to the image of His Son..

I do not believe God forces one person to be saved and forces another to be damned.. I believe God simply foreknows who will accept the moving of the Holy Spirit and be saved and who will resist the Holy Spirit and be damned..
Click to expand...
God does foreknow all who will be conformed to the image of His Son..Yes being Conformed only happens at Glorification not at conversion. You've got this concept ( from a famous 4th century theologian) of us being ' chosen ' to be saved before we born . Which sounds lovely and all warm and fuzzy . Who would want to argue against the concept . The issue is scriptural authority. The Bible argues against theology in that we are only Known as sons . From this knowledge ( fore - knowing ) we are then , being in him as sons pre - destined ( destination chosen ahead of time ) Guranteed future Adoption which is the redemption of the body. Rom 8 23 . This is only made possible being ' IN HIM ' This him is the only elect , preexisting one before !! the foundation of the world. Once you become in Him ,who is an eternal being, what do you think happens ? we recieve all the things in heveanly places in Christ Jesus .NOTHING happens to us outside of Christ. Until we become sons through the new birth .
 
T

throughfaith

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#286
Aug 4, 2020
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#286
fredoheaven said:
Correct me if I am wrong, so what you are saying is that predestination for service and not salvation and that to be predestine to receive something until the redemption of our 'body'? Thanks
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Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

“Foreknow” is being known by God in the sense of Gal. 4:9 after conversion and before glorification as if already glorified. It does not refer to any time prior to conversion. (Gal. 4:8-9; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Pet. 1:2)

Nobody was “in Christ” before the foundation of the world. Nobody was “in Christ” before they were placed in Christ during their lifetime. (Eph. 1:4; 2:12; Rom. 12:5; 6:3: 16:7; 1 Cor. 12:13, 27)
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#287
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#287
Guojing said:
Trying to understand time from God's point of view will be tough for us, its like asking a fish to describe water.

God is outside time, so its possible for him to know what we will do beforehand, and simultaneously still gives us free will to decide there and then, in the present.

We won't understand how this work fully, until heaven.
Click to expand...
Yes ,but what we can say is that we are Known of God as sons After we believe and then understand what ' election means and predestination means.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#288
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#288
Adstar said:
You're either not comprehending my posts. Or your just being difficult. It could be that you're understanding is being blocked/ blinded,, I hope for you that this is not the case.. I said before maybe twice before in this thread.. I am not a calvinist.. But the Word of God must be accepted in it's entirety and therefore God does foreknow all who will be conformed to the image of His Son..

I do not believe God forces one person to be saved and forces another to be damned.. I believe God simply foreknows who will accept the moving of the Holy Spirit and be saved and who will resist the Holy Spirit and be damned..
Click to expand...
I'm not saying God doesn't know . I'm saying what the bible says about ' foreknown , Election , predestination. Which I've addressed in my OP .
Foreknow” is being known by God in the sense of Gal. 4:9 after conversion and before glorification as if already glorified. It does not refer to any time prior to conversion. (Gal. 4:8-9; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Pet. 1:2)

Nobody was “in Christ” before the foundation of the world. Nobody was “in Christ” before they were placed in Christ during their lifetime. (Eph. 1:4; 2:12; Rom. 12:5; 6:3: 16:7; 1 Cor. 12:13, 27)
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#289
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#289
Adstar said:
Gods foreknowledge and predestination reassures us that God cannot Fail.. God knew from the beginning of creation the entire future of His universe creation in PERFECT clarity.. He knew how it was going to all turn out from the very start.. Down to the detail of knowing every human being that would ever live, knowing all the thoughts they would ever think.. I believe God knew when every blade of grass would grow and how tall every blade of grass would grow and how many atoms each individuel blade of grass would be composed of..

Prophecy of God can be trusted because God has foreseen Everything.. So Every Christian should be 100% confident that absolutely no evil cunning scheme from satan or his allies will ever stand in the way of Gods eternal plan.. God is like a chess player who has seen all the moves of a game before He starts the game.. satan has NO chance and was defeated before he came into existence..

I am 100% confident that God wins.. And that reinforces my Faith in the LORD beyond measure..
Click to expand...
How does Gods knowledge of what you would do before you believed reassure you , now that you are in Christ Jesus ?
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

Senior Member
#290
Nov 17, 2015
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#290
throughfaith said:
Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

“Foreknow” is being known by God in the sense of Gal. 4:9 after conversion and before glorification as if already glorified. It does not refer to any time prior to conversion. (Gal. 4:8-9; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Pet. 1:2)

Nobody was “in Christ” before the foundation of the world. Nobody was “in Christ” before they were placed in Christ during their lifetime. (Eph. 1:4; 2:12; Rom. 12:5; 6:3: 16:7; 1 Cor. 12:13, 27)
Click to expand...
Ok thanks.
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#291
Jul 24, 2016
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#291
throughfaith said:
God does foreknow all who will be conformed to the image of His Son..Yes being Conformed only happens at Glorification not at conversion. You've got this concept ( from a famous 4th century theologian) of us being ' chosen ' to be saved before we born . .
Click to expand...

I NEVER said that.. This confirms to me that you have not been paying attention to what i have been saying...

I said it 2 times at lest now and you are not listening .. Here is a third time.. I am NOT a calvinist..

I don't know any 4th centruy theologians i obtained my beliefs from reading the Bible..
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#292
Aug 4, 2020
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#292
Adstar said:
I NEVER said that.. This confirms to me that you have not been paying attention to what i have been saying...

I said it 2 times at lest now and you are not listening .. Here is a third time.. I am NOT a calvinist..

I don't know any 4th centruy theologians i obtained my beliefs from reading the Bible..
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I'm not saying you are a calvinst or that you have read any of Augustine. Many believe the concepts without any knowledge of him or reading his works . The issue is his theology is so permeated into most denomination s and traditions most are not aware they have been unintentionally spoon fed calvinstic thinking. Thats my point.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#293
Aug 4, 2020
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#293
Guojing said:
Trying to understand time from God's point of view will be tough for us, its like asking a fish to describe water.

God is outside time, so its possible for him to know what we will do beforehand, and simultaneously still gives us free will to decide there and then, in the present.

We won't understand how this work fully, until heaven.
Click to expand...
its also the point of the thread ' when are we saved ' Some will almost imply that its when Jesus was on the cross . Or when they were ' elected ' ect
 
L

lenna

Guest
#294
#294
this op is a masterpiece of confusing salvation with what happens after salvation

good to see people are not falling for it :rolleyes: :giggle:
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#295
Jan 12, 2019
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#295
throughfaith said:
its also the point of the thread ' when are we saved ' Some will almost imply that its when Jesus was on the cross . Or when they were ' elected ' ect
Click to expand...
Both are just expressing the different ways of understanding how time flows.

For us living in time, we have a past, present and future. We live time moving forward.

For God who is living outside time, I can imagine he sees our past, present and future simultaneously right in front of him.

Since he can see our future, he can elect us based on that knowledge.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#296
#296
Adstar said:
I NEVER said that.. This confirms to me that you have not been paying attention to what i have been saying...

I said it 2 times at lest now and you are not listening .. Here is a third time.. I am NOT a calvinist..

I don't know any 4th centruy theologians i obtained my beliefs from reading the Bible..
Click to expand...
Thank you for being another person to expose this person's outright refusal to see anything past an anticalvinistic
View to the point he can not hear a word you have said
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#297
#297
lenna said:
this op is a masterpiece of confusing salvation with what happens after salvation

good to see people are not falling for it :rolleyes::giggle:
Click to expand...
That and trying to think everyone got their belief system from Calvinistic teachings whether they know it or not.
 
T

throughfaith

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#298
Aug 4, 2020
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#298
Guojing said:
Both are just expressing the different ways of understanding how time flows.

For us living in time, we have a past, present and future. We live time moving forward.

For God who is living outside time, I can imagine he sees our past, present and future simultaneously right in front of him.

Since he can see our future, he can elect us based on that knowledge.
Click to expand...
I agree . But we want our understanding from the scriptures first. I agree with what your saying up to where you say ' elect us from that knowledge. If you mean ' chose them to be saved kind of election. in scripture ' elect ' is always service and purpose not salvation . So whilst you could fit it in to that assumption, you'd be off biblicaly . Rather God chooses those who become sons through faith and predestines them to the Adoption which is future . The redemption of the body. This way were not misunderstanding terms such as ' foreknown' , Election , predestination ect and arriving at other faulty conclusions because of a faulty premise to begin with . I believe its a faulty premise to begin with to say we were ' elected ' before we existed to BE saved . Its origin is found in the T of Tulip .
 
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