Can someone lose their salvation?

[livingbygrace]

you mean overturn YOUR "plain scripture" reading?
the same plain words that tell us Jesus is a created entity?
the same plain words that tell us the apostolic era "giftings" are for today?
the same plain words by paul who said NO WOMEN in ministry?

zone:
Romans 7 is about the believer’s relationship to THE LAW, and THE LAW'S inability to sanctify.

Well that of course is true, but not the way you mean it.

zone:
soooo....i got it partly right, so tell me what he meant i got wrong.

So Paul spent the whole of his Christian life being consumed by lust and concupiscence, a slave to sin, and doing the things he did not want to do, and instead of doing the good he wanted to do he kept doing the evil he did not want to do.

zone:
uh.....huh? did he? or did he spend ONE CHAPTER teaching about the new believer, sin, sin & The Law, before proceeding to the believer and the Spirit....

Paul was a t-e-a-c-h-e-r. right?

THANK GOD HE CHOSE A GOOD TEACHER LIKE PAUL WHO WAS ABLE TO EXPLAIN TO THE NEW CONVERT WHAT HE/SHE WOULD EXPERIENCE, and that it was normal for the newly regenerate to try to war that way, but he then leads the believer into the way of victory in following chptrs.

Paul so perfectly describes the warring that goes on when we struggle with sin REFERENCING THE LAW, and whatever the sin or lust issue, he shows us the Law is good, we are not, the Law can't sanctify.

did i get it wrong LBG?....tell me about Romans 6, 7 and 8 please.

i know some peole have to rip Romans 7 out of its beautiful polemic position and pretend its him thinking back to being Saul.....i feel sorry for those people because they miss the teaching entirely.

But then he demanded that others put to death the misdeeds of the body and said that those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. He also said that we are not controlled by the sinful nature if the spirit of God lives in us.(ch 8)

ya....they miss the teaching, interup the flow, and make a muddy mess of the whole thing.
these lazy people who claim to just like"the plain" words of scripture never quite get around to reading with understanding as paul takes the new convert through their journey of a new awareness of their sin, their new knowledge of the Law, the law's inbility to sanctify them, no matter how good they try to be....then in to the wonder and majesty of the new believer understanding that he is NO LONGER an unregenerate man, but is indeed born again by The Spirit and in this way will see his victories.

nah....we gotta tear and cut up that beautiful book to make it fit our "plain reading".


But in ch 7 when you say he is speaking of when he was a Christian, he was controlled by the sinful nature and a slave to sin
That would kinda make Paul a hypocrite I think, which I KNOW HE WAS NOT


*shrug*
try reading it again. i dunno. whatever.

It seems to me Zone you are trying reeeeeeeeeeal hard here to try and tell me that a Christian is a slave to sin and therefore controlled by their lower nature.

zone:
i can't help it if you don't understand Romans.
and i've given my testimony before.

let's see.........you mean: this isn't what your church looks like?



maybe you're right about me. i didn't know i had to quit drinking and using IV drugs and stuff!
tsk. DARN IT. do i have give back the guns and money i stole yesterday?

can i keep the guy i dragged home last night?

i wish i'd read Romans "plainly". now i'll have to figure out how to "walk in the Spirit"....is it kind of like struggling against the Law? is it something i DO beacuse i'm cool and saved and obedient?

or is it something i do NOW THAT I AM REGENERATE?

You seem almost desperate that people accept the Paul of Rom ch 7 was speaking of when he was a Christian. And any mention of sin being overcome in a persons life by faith in Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit seems to bring accusations of an attempt at being super Holy and a person claiming perfection and a Phariseeical attitude

zone:
you're willing to do and say anything to discredit me because of your own heretical beliefs.
not my problem....your problem.

i've overcome more sin than you'll ever committ LBG
difference between you and me is i don't brag (but oh-so"humbly") about how holy and obedient i am.

I can only wonder why all this is

zone:
i have no idea why you can not see clearly. pray about it.
the evidence shows the carnal desire for the charismatic superstars and their signs and wonders dulls the true spiritual senses. *shrug* just something to think about

zone:
if you understood that, you would know why Chapter 6 is about the believer and SIN.

I understand why many try and convince themselves of what you are saying here

zone:
um.......because it's the correct reading? you mean....6 ISN'T about the believer and SIN?
(i'll wait for your exposition of those chapters then please. enlighten me.)

zone:
then you would understand Chapter 8.

Ch 8 is so different because now Paul is living in the truth of grace

zone:
OH! so the chapters are a trip through PAUL'S journey. its not teaching for the reader to understand what their conversion experience is about.

all that trouble in 6 & 7 and NOW paul is living in the truth of grace. whew! glad he made it in time to write most of the NT.

Well as you have told me much about your past life(which incidentally I told you I was glad to see you were free from) and you know nothing of mine I think I am in the best position to judge the comparison between us.

As to which one of us is correct concerning Romans ch 7.

Werll firstly you do not accept the plain and continuous words of Christ as to the belief a person must have concerning him to have eternal life, I do.
You make demands for salvation which are not made in the Bible, I do not.

Secondly. I taske it you agree with Red's position that if someone attended a church for ten years after claiming a conversion experiance and constantly got drunk, had multiple affairs constantly beat their wife and never read a Bible these things would not say that the person is not saved, as(I presume)you believe all sin is equal for the Christian as they are not under law but under grace.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

As a dear lady who has been a Christian for over sixty years said to me
It isn't about 'head theology' but heartfelt belief and the conviction of the Holy Spirit

And of course the Holy Spirit would never contradict the plain and continuous words of Christ

But some are brought out of hopeless and dire situations in their life. They have turned to God in desperation and been wonderfully helped. Their life has been totally changed, and when they were in the dire mess they proimised God much so great was their desire to be free
And God at that point would ask a person no more than to cling to his son and trust him.

But sometimes when a person has been so greatly helped there comes a time when God wants far more from the heart and the person does not give what is required.
And sometimes they turn away and get into a mess again. Often, praise God they will return to God and once again desire to be with him, but much of the world is still in them, the consequence of what they have done.
But in their head they are desperate to be with God, but in the heart they are not able to be as close due to the life lived

Quite often head theology follows. And of course 'head theology' is what you see much of on websites like these, it become almost everything to the individual, and much knowledge in the wrong place in ones life simply puffs up.

So anyway, as my beliefs are Bible based, and much of yours are not, I guess to me I am on surer footing to understand and accept the truth of Rom ch 7

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG

I am just going to give some short and simple answers to some of your points. There comes a time when if the same point is continuously debated that the usefulness of it being debated ceases.

1)

I may have given you an extreme example of the man committing rape, murder etc but it proves the point. We can using head theology say 'all sin is sin' and from one view point that is correct as I earlier explained, so will not go over it again here. But I have never met any Christian(and I have met a lot believe me) who would believe all sin is viewed the same if continually committed by someone who professes Christianity. It just does not happen that way
Paul insisted that the man sleeping with his Father's wife be put out of the church, but Paul knew the Corinthian church was not sinless didn't he. But he did not instruct that all the members were put out of the church
But when we are led to believe the man ceased being in a relationship with his Father's mother Paul instructed them to bring him back into the church. So all sin is not viewed the same.

I am not going to respond publically to an individual case, if you want a reply to the instance given please pm me

King Davids wives

The Pharisees said to Jesus that according to Moses law a man could simply write his wife a letter of dismissal to divorce her. Jesus saide that was a concession to their hard hearts, not what God desired to see.
If I remember correctly Solomon had over 300 wives but God became angry not because of the amount of wives he had, but because in the end he married some women from other countries who worshipped other gods. If God considered David or Solomon was committing adultery by having more thasn one wife He would have had to immediately instruct them of this. I do not see this mentioned in scripture
Could it not be that God made concessions to their hearts concerning having more than one wife, as Christ said He did concerning writing a letter of dismissal to your wife? That is my view of it anyway.

I do believe that we carry sin into our Christian life from our former life that is deep rooted that we in our hearts are desperate to be free from. I believe such sin is to be viewed very differently from the sin committed once a person has been set free of such sin(Spurgeon sees it this way too)

Can God heal anyone of sexual sin?

From what you have written(and that is all I can go by) It does not matter how weak the individual is, but how great God is to change them, if they understand the Gospel of grace, if they do not, they will not have the faith. I am assuming you are refering here to affairs

You could smoke and still give God first place in your heart. You could not have an affair and do the same. That answer could be gone into in detail but I don't want to get bogged down here

If Paul is condemning sinners he cannot teach a Gospel of grace apart from our righteous deeds

Paul was the greatest preacher of grace this world has ever seen. He said he was the worst of sinners. But he knew the power and victory available in the true Gospel of grace. I cannot write it all out again here to make the point.
It is not 'our righteous dees' it is what Christ does in us and the Holy Spirit sanctifies us.

And Spurgeon who preached grace as Paul wrote it and saw prostitues chanfged, their hearts become as he said 'pure as the driven snow'
Alcoholics totally changed as the starving flocked to his services. But he said that certain sin if not dealt wigth would keep a person from Heaven

And I believe that if the full and true Gospel of grace Paul wrote was preached in any church today that church would be packed with standing room only as the desperate and starving would flock to that church, and that to my mind is without question
Someone said
The non Christian could probably recognise a miracle far faster than most who go to church and they would respond to the pure truth of the Gospel of grace being preached.

It is not a Gospel of our deeds, it is a Gospel where Christ won the victory at calvary, but so many settle for a ten cent Christianity where one of thousand dollar bills is on offer

One more point

If a man went to Red's church and claimed to be a Christian, and in the next year he killed six people and committed ten rapes and got drunk every night of the week, would Red put his arm round him and say

Don't worry about the sin brother, God is dealing with it, you are under grace, none of your sin will be counted against you, it takes longer for some than others to see the victory, but God is patient and don't let anyone tell you different. You are assured of your place in Heaven'

But then again, I cannot be sure what Red would say!

Therte is head theology and heartfelt belief being convicted by the Holy Spirit and it is the latter that the Christian needs

Just a short reply.

Adultry is a sin. When it comes to eternal consequences. Adultry leads to death (spiritual) God has never changed his mind about this. Just because he does not say something about it. or does not snap his fingers and the person disapears does not mean God condons it. (we all deserve this by the way)

David lived in sin with his wives. God knew there wa snothign he could say that would change david, so why bother. It does not mean that if Christ did not die for the sin of adultry David would have been declared innocent of breaking the law. He would have been condemned for all his adulterous wives.

Second.

One can not say, We are saved by grace through faith apart from our righteous deeds. Then turn around and say if you do not work and stop these sins you will not be let in. They would be contradicting themselves. Sturgeon got it wrong. I can not agree with him. If a man has sexual sin, he is no more condemned than a lady who lies to get out of her mistakes. Jesus paid for both sins.

We agree. A man that shows no changed life and signs of being saved is probably not saved. they believe in a licentious doctrine.

we disagree that a man who suffers from an adiction. And does not trust God to help him overcome it is not saved. Yes God helps many. Like those prostitutes. But I also have had friends who were healed from that life. and after years of doing great things, due to a circumstance in her life fell back into it (she was broke and could not afford anything thanks to her dead beat husband) If she dies before she is able to stop again. I do not think she will go to hell. She was born again, Had the frutis to prove it. And became a prodigal child due to circumstances in here life. God is not going to kick her out of his family

 

[livingbygrace]

Just to add

Some people go around telling others they are hetetics if they do or don't believe in the rapture, and filique, but these people do not accept the condition Christ continuously set for a person to have everlasting life, they add to it.

Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees which is hypocrisy
Luke 12:1

Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching lof the Pharisees and Saducees
Matt 16:12

 

[Red33]

And I thought for a moment you may have addressed the point in question, oh well.

It was well addressed but beyond the capacity that you have in your heart to understand it. God has to give you that capacity through grace and humility because it is the meek that He will teach doctrine to.

 

[livingbygrace]

Just a short reply.

Adultry is a sin. When it comes to eternal consequences. Adultry leads to death (spiritual) God has never changed his mind about this. Just because he does not say something about it. or does not snap his fingers and the person disapears does not mean God condons it. (we all deserve this by the way)

David lived in sin with his wives. God knew there wa snothign he could say that would change david, so why bother. It does not mean that if Christ did not die for the sin of adultry David would have been declared innocent of breaking the law. He would have been condemned for all his adulterous wives.
If God considered David and Solomon to be committing adultery by having more than one wife, they would have been breaking constantly one of the Ten Commandments. Do you believe God would have said nothing concerning this either to them directly, or through a prophet?


Second.

One can not say, We are saved by grace through faith apart from our righteous deeds. Then turn around and say if you do not work and stop these sins you will not be let in. They would be contradicting themselves. Sturgeon got it wrong. I can not agree with him. If a man has sexual sin, he is no more condemned than a lady who lies to get out of her mistakes. Jesus paid for both sins.

We agree. A man that shows no changed life and signs of being saved is probably not saved. they believe in a licentious doctrine.

we disagree that a man who suffers from an adiction. And does not trust God to help him overcome it is not saved. Yes God helps many. Like those prostitutes. But I also have had friends who were healed from that life. and after years of doing great things, due to a circumstance in her life fell back into it (she was broke and could not afford anything thanks to her dead beat husband) If she dies before she is able to stop again. I do not think she will go to hell. She was born again, Had the frutis to prove it. And became a prodigal child due to circumstances in here life. God is not going to kick her out of his family

If we say that all sin is sin for the Christian and equal for otherwise we have a works based Gospel would you answer the following question for me.

You and I would accept we are sinners saved by grace. Not a day goes by when we would fail in some way to live according to Christ's teachings. After all, how many people do you know who perfectly uphold the beatitudes for example day in day out, let alone other commands of Christ
On this basis you would accept people in your church as saved, no question, they are not perfect, but sinners saved by grace, Christ's sacrifice on the cross for us


Someone joins your church. They raise their arms in the air during the service and professes to be a Christian
But during the next twelve months you know that they commit, six murders, ten rapes, have ten affairs, and get drunk nearly every night.
Do you in your heart believe with assurity as you would concerning the other people in your church that this man will go to Heaven? For if all sin is equal, and one sin cannot be categorised as worse than another then you must

Now obviously I have given you an extreme example. But if your theology you are telling me in this debate is what you would believe in your heart you must accept the person described is as sure to go to Heaven as the rest of the congregation

EG
Please give me a straight and forthright answer as you required of me yesterday concerning your questions
Would you believe in your heart that such a man as I have described is as certain to go to Heaven as anyone else in your congregation? For all are sinners and sinning daily

 

[livingbygrace]

It was well addressed but beyond the capacity that you have in your heart to understand it. God has to give you that capacity through grace and humility because it is the meek that He will teach doctrine to.

This reply says much concerning the grace and humility in your heart

 

[zone]

Well as you have told me much about your past life(which incidentally I told you I was glad to see you were free from) and you know nothing of mine I think I am in the best position to judge the comparison between us.

As to which one of us is correct concerning Romans ch 7.

Werll firstly you do not accept the plain and continuous words of Christ as to the belief a person must have concerning him to have eternal life, I do.
You make demands for salvation which are not made in the Bible, I do not.

Secondly. I taske it you agree with Red's position that if someone attended a church for ten years after claiming a conversion experiance and constantly got drunk, had multiple affairs constantly beat their wife and never read a Bible these things would not say that the person is not saved, as(I presume)you believe all sin is equal for the Christian as they are not under law but under grace.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

As a dear lady who has been a Christian for over sixty years said to me
It isn't about 'head theology' but heartfelt belief and the conviction of the Holy Spirit

And of course the Holy Spirit would never contradict the plain and continuous words of Christ

But some are brought out of hopeless and dire situations in their life. They have turned to God in desperation and been wonderfully helped. Their life has been totally changed, and when they were in the dire mess they proimised God much so great was their desire to be free
And God at that point would ask a person no more than to cling to his son and trust him.

But sometimes when a person has been so greatly helped there comes a time when God wants far more from the heart and the person does not give what is required.
And sometimes they turn away and get into a mess again. Often, praise God they will return to God and once again desire to be with him, but much of the world is still in them, the consequence of what they have done.
But in their head they are desperate to be with God, but in the heart they are not able to be as close due to the life lived

Quite often head theology follows. And of course 'head theology' is what you see much of on websites like these, it become almost everything to the individual, and much knowledge in the wrong place in ones life simply puffs up.

So anyway, as my beliefs are Bible based, and much of yours are not, I guess to me I am on surer footing to understand and accept the truth of Rom ch 7

that's a lovely story.
but where's the teaching on Romans 6,7 & 8?
i'll try to put aside reason, the rules of grammar, any meditating on the passages: i'll empty my mind as much as possible and just accept the simple plain teachings you offer, okay?

whenever you're ready.

 

[livingbygrace]

that's a lovely story.
but where's the teaching on Romans 6,7 & 8?
i'll try to put aside reason, the rules of grammar, any meditating on the passages: i'll empty my mind as much as possible and just accept the simple plain teachings you offer, okay?

whenever you're ready.

Oh I could go through Romans 6, 7 &8 with you, that would not be a problem, but you would not accept it, just as you do not accept the words of Christ as the neccessary belief in him to have eternal life. I am sure you would come out with many weird and wonderful answers. It would be a waste of time

And as in your heart you believe you know much 'theology' and are here to give others the benefit of what you know I doubt you would have the mindset to be open and empty your mind as you put it

 

[Red33]

EG,

LBG is doing the same with you as he has done with others. He has 'Strawman phobia' and suffers from 'Strawmania' making him a 'Strawmaniac'. I am just having some fun and I don't hate LBG, I just think he is a little off about alot of things and doesn't like tha kind of grace and mercy that God gives to those that are vile sinners, which he has never been in his life nor is willing to relate to. That's what he thinks in his heart but would never say that outwardly less someone think him to be proud and arrogant.

God always looks upon the heart so LBG will never get away with that attitude though he may deceive others who might be weak in the faith or have no discernment. He can't help himself because he has no capacity for that kind of grace. Is it the same for you or are you trying to tell us something different?

 

[zone]

Someone joins your church. They raise their arms in the air during the service and professes to be a Christian

HOWDY Church! I'm the NEW STRAWMAN in town. i claim to be a Christian!



during the last twelve months i committed, six murders, ten rapes, had ten affairs, and got drunk nearly every night.

am i worth talking about?....i could bring back my brother, he only beat his wife and got drunk for 10 years.

~

everything depends on this one question: will i go to heaven?

don't worry. you can debate me for 6 months....i don't mind. i'm not even real.

 

[zone]

Oh I could go through Romans 6, 7 &8 with you, that would not be a problem, but you would not accept it, just as you do not accept the words of Christ as the neccessary belief in him to have eternal life. I am sure you would come out with many weird and wonderful answers. It would be a waste of time

And as in your heart you believe you know much 'theology' and are here to give others the benefit of what you know I doubt you would have the mindset to be open and empty your mind as you put it

but, i'm asking if you would present an exposition of Romans 6, 7 & 8.
i MIGHT accept your reading.

i'm perfectly capable of emptying my mind. i don't like doing it for long, but if you will present a proper teaching on Romans 6,7,8, i will.

deal?

else how will i know where you are right and where i went wrong?

thanks.

 

[livingbygrace]

EG,
LBG is doing the same with you as he has done with others. He has 'Strawman phobia' and suffers from 'Strawmania' making him a 'Strawmaniac'. I am just having some fun and I don't hate LBG, I just think he is a little off about alot of things and doesn't like tha kind of grace and mercy that God gives to those that are vile sinners, which he has never been in his life nor is willing to relate to. That's what he thinks in his heart but would never say that outwardly less someone think him to be proud and arrogant.

You know nothing about my life so once again you make your FALSE ASSUMPTIONS

God always looks upon the heart so LBG will never get away with that attitude though he may deceive others who might be weak in the faith or have no discernment. He can't help himself because he has no capacity for that kind of grace. Is it the same for you or are you trying to tell us something different?

The problem is here that your 'head theology' is ridiculous, so you have not the courage to answer the question continually asked, so you have no choice but to deflect, deflect, deflect. But as you feel you are such an authority on scripture you can deny so much of the basics for your own personal brand of grace, no wonder you come unstuck and have to shy away from answering so many questions put to you

 

[livingbygrace]

but, i'm asking if you would present an exposition of Romans 6, 7 & 8.
i MIGHT accept your reading.

i'm perfectly capable of emptying my mind. i don't like doing it for long, but if you will present a proper teaching on Romans 6,7,8, i will.

deal?

else how will i know where you are right and where i went wrong?

thanks.

Well as I suspect sarcasm in your words I doubt in that spirit we would get anywhere. And I do not see the point in wasting much of my time with someone who picks and chooses what they believe in the Bible and believes they have the spiritual knowledge and authority to demand of others what is not demanded in the Bible

I am afraid Zone I do not believe you could accept anything other than what you believe anyway. All that 'head theology'!!!

 

[livingbygrace]

Someone joins your church. They raise their arms in the air during the service and professes to be a Christian

HOWDY Church! I'm the NEW STRAWMAN in town. i claim to be a Christian!



during the last twelve months i committed, six murders, ten rapes, had ten affairs, and got drunk nearly every night.

am i worth talking about?....i could bring back my brother, he only beat his wife and got drunk for 10 years.

~

everything depends on this one question: will i go to heaven?

don't worry. you can debate me for 6 months....i don't mind. i'm not even real.

As the example given blows away your vain head theology it of course leaves you with no choice but to react the way you do, hardly suprising, and hardly mature, but then...............................

 

[zone]

Well as I suspect sarcasm in your words I doubt in that spirit we would get anywhere. And I do not see the point in wasting much of my time with someone who picks and chooses what they believe in the Bible and believes they have the spiritual knowledge and authority to demand of others what is not demanded in the Bible

I am afraid Zone I do not believe you could accept anything other than what you believe anyway. All that 'head theology'!!!

LBG:
if you have the correct Biblical intepretaton of the book of Romans, why wouldn't you share it?

i am asking if you would please present those 3 chapters and explain them both individually and as a whole. i want to know what you see that i do not see.

thank you.

 

[zone]

As the example given blows away your vain head theology it of course leaves you with no choice but to react the way you do, hardly suprising, and hardly mature, but then...............................

come on LBG....



i like satire and humour.
some things are just soooooooo funny.

"vain head theology": code for zone has actually worked very hard, has studied and is comfortable handling God's Word. zone is not comfortable with experiential, intutitive, heart 'theology' or liver shivers.

anyways...signing off for now, looking forward to Romans. thank you.

 

[livingbygrace]

LBG:
if you have the correct Biblical intepretaton of the book of Romans, why wouldn't you share it?

i am asking if you would please present those 3 chapters and explain them both individually and as a whole. i want to know what you see that i do not see.

thank you.

You will never believe what I believe, it would not matter how much I wrote.

And frankly I become a little weary at having lengthy discussions with people who believe they know so much of the truth of scripture but show by what they write they do not.

And as your words are plainly not said in true sincerity that says much as well

But why don't you spend time doing an exposition of Rm 6, 7 and 8 if you like, then we can all benefit from the great knowledge you have, after all, to them that know much surely it is their duty to share what they know

 

[livingbygrace]

come on LBG....



i like satire and humour.
some things are just soooooooo funny.

"vain head theology": code for zone has actually worked very hard, has studied and is comfortable handling God's Word. zone is not comfortable with experiential, intutitive, heart 'theology' or liver shivers.

anyways...signing off for now, looking forward to Romans. thank you.

Zone has worked very hard, Zone has studied hmmmmmmmmm

 

[Red33]

This reply says much concerning the grace and humility in your heart

It sure does and I have never deserved it but was available to be taught from those that do know the grace of God and have been through the fire and have come out of it with purity of heart. I like to learn from those that have lived and experienced the grace of God by faith. That have allowed the cross to crucify and reduce them to nothing so that they would have to depend on the grace of God. Men who recognize their own depravity and have nothing but mercy and grace toward others.

They are men that do not try to be spiritual but allow God through the Holy Spirit to give them an abundant of grace in all things. They do not take grace for granted but embrace it because it comes from the Lord Jesus Christ, who was full of grace and truth. These are true men of God that are not foolish enough to charge God's grace of not providing a perfect and complete salvation to keep the believer hid with Christ in God. Only those that have no capacity for God's matchless grace could consider such a strange thing about God's nature and great salvation that was provided through Christ to sinful man.

 

[zone]

You will never see what I see, it would not matter how much I wrote.

And frankly I become a little weary at having lengthy discussions with people who believe they know so much of the truth of scripture but show by what they write they do not.

And as your words are plainly not said in true sincerity that says much as well

But why don't you spend time doing an exposition of Rm 6, 7 and 8 if you like, then we can all benefit from the great knowledge you have, after all, to them that know much surely it is their duty to share what they know

so....you can't do it i guess.
thats' okay.

thanks anyways.
maybe some other time.

(i know what you mean about wearying over the suuuuuuper long debates over imaginary things)