Can someone lose their salvation?

[livingbygrace]

Do you doubt that a local assembly of believers that God has His hand upon can have that kind of fruit? I have not been failed by God because He is faithful, or by the local assembly or the grace of God. The new testament church is built up and upon the word and doctrine and the grace of God is upon it. This is what can happen any where in the world, and it is happening in the world when believers abide in Christ and let His words abide in them. The focus is on the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the one that is magnified and preached in all the world. He is the one on the throne of His grace and the life we have comes from an ascended Lord. We are to seek those things from above where Christ sits, at the right hand of God, and set our affections on things above (Col 3:2).

I upset the minister at my mothers funeral though. I spoke from the pulpit and told the congregation that the Apostle Paul would have been aghast at an obediance of striving to obey the law.
I told them that all we need to do is have faith and love, it didnt go down very well

I said that if we truly loved someone we would not want to steal from them, lie about them, covet what was theirs, or murder them etc hence love fulfills the law

He took me aside after the service and spoke to me gravely on the subject

 

[Nalu]

No You can not lose something that was given to you as a gift. If you can lose it you have to earn it. Scripture makes it clear salvation is by grace (unearned) through faith in the work of Christ. Not in our own good deeds. We can't lose something we never earned in the first place.

Many will say you can give it back,by departing from the faith, but not even this is true. John speaks on this issue in his first epistle where he states they never really were a true part of the church. For if they were a true part, they never would have "departed" But they Departed to show they never were "of us" or a part of the church!

I agree, well said.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I upset the minister at my mothers funeral though. I spoke from the pulpit and told the congregation that the Apostle Paul would have been aghast at an obediance of striving to obey the law.
I told them that all we need to do is have faith and love, it didnt go down very well

I said that if we truly loved someone we would not want to steal from them, lie about them, covet what was theirs, or murder them etc hence love fulfills the law

He took me aside after the service and spoke to me gravely on the subject

Thats too bad. Because that is exactly what Christ meant.

The problem with us is we will never have perfect love until we are in heaven. Thats why we will continue to sin. Just like we will never have perfect faith until then. Which is why there will be prodigal children.

 

[55scuba]

Didnt Judas betray Jesus, Paul denined Christ 3 times. We can loose our salvation, Once your saved your always saved is a lie of satan and telling someone otherwise is unscripital

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Didnt Judas betray Jesus, Paul denined Christ 3 times. We can loose our salvation, Once your saved your always saved is a lie of satan and telling someone otherwise is unscripital

Judas was never saved. Peter did not lose his salvation. He was not even punished for what he did.

Eternal life is either eternal. meaning never ending. Or God is a liar.

 

[55scuba]

Judas was chosen to follow Jesus as a disciple and healed the sick and help spread the gospel. Do you think someone who was once saved is always saved ? this is a lie and is unscriptual. In 1st John 5:16 it shows us how to help those who have backsliding and if we have backsliders then we can lose our salvation to death. Please read the word and see what the Holy Spirit will show you

 

[55scuba]

And he killed himself so yes he did face death and hell welcomed him I have been to the location in Israel where he did this

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Judas was chosen to follow Jesus as a disciple and healed the sick and help spread the gospel. Do you think someone who was once saved is always saved ? this is a lie and is unscriptual. In 1st John 5:16 it shows us how to help those who have backsliding and if we have backsliders then we can lose our salvation to death. Please read the word and see what the Holy Spirit will show you

I have read scripture.

It says I HAVE - Not might have- Eternal life. If this life is not eternal Gods promise is a lie and I have no hope

Satan entered Judas, He was called the son of perdition. Satan can not enter someone who belongs to God.

Judas was a thief. He never truely believed Christ. He carried their money and stole from them. God can work with anyone.

Judas was called the son of perdition. Only one other man is called this. do you know who that is? Is he saved and going to lose his salvation??

 

[livingbygrace]

so....you can't do it i guess.
thats' okay.

thanks anyways.
maybe some other time.

(i know what you mean about wearying over the suuuuuuper long debates over imaginary things)

There are many who believe THEY have striven to learn, THEY have strived through their own endeavour to learn much theolgy,, by reading up on various scholars/theologians and continually reading the Bible. This mostly brings a 'knowledge' that puffs up and makes a person proud of what they think THEY have achieved an understanding of.
Sadly, all too often it is not enough to accept plain scripture as it is written, that is not enough for such scholarly people driven by an understanding of the natural mind so they have to look for 'hidden extras' I call it in scripture so they believe by their own striving and effort they have uncovered much truth

You asked me in a sarcastic tone to speak of Rom 6, 7 and 8, pointing out as you did so my lack of grammatical expertise. I freely admit academically you are probably far ahead of someone like me, and Peter, James and John for that matter as they were uneducated fishermen, but they got by OK

But I will play along with your game for a little while Zone. But personally I believe you are led firstly by your rational mind, therefore there will be no agremenmt here. So I will give you my thoughts briefly on Rom ch 6 and then I will invite you to tell me where you disagree with what I write. If your motives are pure you will agree, if not you will demand all three chapters are written at once. But as I am doing as you asked and you are not doing any exposition of them I hope you can find it in your heart to agreee to my request in humility. You will certainly see how I believe the three chapters flow. Though for this to be done properly all the first eight chapters of Romans should have expositions done on them, but you seem reluctant to yourself partake in this. I guess it is just easier to sit back and criticise others than put your own head above the parapet as it were. But if these chapters are to be looked at it needs to be one at a time, but like I said you can then put my statements together and judge for yourself(as can anyone else) if they flow. Though Rom 7 on its own proves the contentious point between us.


Paul had spoken much in previous chapters of us having a righteousness before God of faith, not law, we could not get to Heaven by being good enough, or earning our way there, it was by a free gift of faith.

He also had explained in the previous chapter that when the law was given sin increased, so the law did not just reveal the sin. He had also previously said that law brings wrath, if we live by law(striving to be good enough) faith has no value. BTW this is why all the other chapters should have been gone into first as I am sure you in your heart are well aware.
So Paul has been speaking of a righteousness/justification by faith, but he has also stressed that this will bring the law to be upheld in our lives Rom 3:31. So, by not living under the law but by faith in Christ we will as Christians live far more as God would have us live.

Rom ch 6

Paul is speaking of the Christian living in grace, not under the law.

He is in general terms talking of us being dead to sin and alive in Christ. Now, does this mean we will never do anything wrong and every day lead perfect lives in every way?' No. But we are not to concentrate on the sins of the flesh, set out to satisfy them. We are in grace and must look to Christ in our hearts and praise and worship him with thanksgiving for our salvation. We are to look to him, desiring in our hearts to follow him because we love him. We set our minds if you like on following after Christ, not on desiring to fulfiull the lusts of the flesh. And if
in our hearts we are looking to Christ, if we truly love him and want to follow him it would be impossible at the same time for us to be seeking ways to satisfy the sinful nature. This is important. If you disagree please let me know. So although we are not perfect in the body we in one sense count ourselves dead to sin as we are not looking to satisy the lusts of the flesh but trust in Christ.

verse 5

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires, but those who live in accordance with the spirit have their minds set on what the spirit desires.

So if we in our hearts do not have our minds set on what the flesh desires, but are following after the spirit we are living in true grace, as long as we are trusting in Christ.

In verse 6 Paul says
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with that we should NO LONGER BE SLAVES TO SIN-because anyone who has died has been freed from sin

Now, does this mean we will never once sin in any way? Of course not. But we will not be controlled by sin. There is a big difference between being controlled by sin/sin being our master and sin not being our master, but as humans we are still not perfect. Do any of us fully obey every teaching to the letter of Christ in the beatitudes or the rest of his commands? No we do not. Do we every minute of every day love our neighbour as ourself? No we don't(do we Zone!!) But their is much sin that if not dealt with will stop us taking up our cross and following Christ, it would consume us if not dealt with, it will be our master, we will be its slave. I know from experiance that you cannot be in a wrong relationship and still follow after Christ. The relationship drags you down, you are no longer close to Christ, you end up following the world. You lose your peace, heartfelt faith etc. You are a slave to the contunued wrong relationship and why you are in that relationship. I could go on and on but I am sure you get my drift.
But if I kicked the cat one morning(bless him) I may in one sense have sinned, but sin is not mastering me, I feel bad and don't do it again. If you cannot accept this then is no point in us going on here.

In verse 9
'you however are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the spirit, if the spirit of God lives in you.

I will come to the spirit later on, but Paul says we are not to be controlled by the sinful nature, we cannot be slaves to sin. We cannot set our hearts on what the sinful nature desires.

Now does this mean that all our lives we will look to Christ and trust him in the power of the Holy Spirit, we are secure with God by faith in his son who died for us, but we will see no victory over sin in our life?
We will not look to the lusts of the flesh and seek to satisfy them but to Christ in heartfelt faith and trust him, but still be consumed by sin?

For sin shall not be your master, FOR YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE
verse 14

Now, if sin is not our master it cannot control us, would you agree?

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey -whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obediance which leads to righteousness
verses 15&16

So because we are not under law but under grace sin will not be our master, it will not control our lives, we must not be slaves to sin, for that leads to death.

Just as you used to offer the parts of your body to impurity and to ever increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness

So the Christian under grace cannot go on giving their body over to impuritiy, so victory must come about by grace over such things. Does this mean we will never have an impure thought? No! But our bodies are not given over to impurity, we see much victory therefore in the flesh over our impurity

But now that you have been set free of sin and have become slaves to God the benefit you reap leads to hoiliness and the result is eternal life
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
verse 22&23

So, to sum up. We are to be dead to sin and alive in Christ by setting our hearts and minds on Christ and trusting him. We are secure with God by faith in his son. We are not under law but under grace. Therefore sin will not be our master and we are not to be slaves to sin

So, we must not look to satisfy the flesh but in our hearts look to Christ and trust him. We know that is our one and only righteousness for Heaven and because Christ is our one and only righteousness for Heaven and we are not under law sin will not be our master and we will see much victory over sin in our lives
Do we therefore nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law Rom 3:31(I know that is cheating)
Therefore if we live by faith in Christ, if we believe that is our one and only righteousness for Heaven, if we are not under the law, therefore we know in our hearts that security with God is dependant on believing in his son, not our own personal goodness we will actually uphold the good laws of God He would have us keep

Why is this?

Now I am going to a lot of trouble to accomodate you here, I hope you appreciate that though I am not convinced your motives are pure.
I ask that you respond to this chapter and tell me where you disagree. It will in no way change what I write concerning chapter 7 so you will see what you desire, the flow as you put it. But I prefer for one chapter at a time to be dealt with. Better we narrow down bit by bit where we disagreee I am sure you would not object to telling me where you may disagree with me here.
If you do not respond to this chapter I will write no more, but all I am sure will see who has made the effort and who has made no effort at all.

 

[zone]

There are many who believe THEY have striven to learn, THEY have strived through their own endeavour to learn much theolgy,, by reading up on various scholars/theologians and continually reading the Bible. This mostly brings a 'knowledge' that puffs up and makes a person proud of what they think THEY have achieved an understanding of.
Sadly, all too often it is not enough to accept plain scripture as it is written, that is not enough for such scholarly people driven by an understanding of the natural mind so they have to look for 'hidden extras' I call it in scripture so they believe by their own striving and effort they have uncovered much truth

You asked me in a sarcastic tone to speak of Rom 6, 7 and 8, pointing out as you did so my lack of grammatical expertise. I freely admit academically you are probably far ahead of someone like me, and Peter, James and John for that matter as they were uneducated fishermen, but they got by OK

But I will play along with your game for a little while Zone. But personally I believe you are led firstly by your rational mind, therefore there will be no agremenmt here. So I will give you my thoughts briefly on Rom ch 6 and then I will invite you to tell me where you disagree with what I write. If your motives are pure you will agree, if not you will demand all three chapters are written at once. But as I am doing as you asked and you are not doing any exposition of them I hope you can find it in your heart to agreee to my request in humility. You will certainly see how I believe the three chapters flow. Though for this to be done properly all the first eight chapters of Romans should have expositions done on them, but you seem reluctant to yourself partake in this. I guess it is just easier to sit back and criticise others than put your own head above the parapet as it were. But if these chapters are to be looked at it needs to be one at a time, but like I said you can then put my statements together and judge for yourself(as can anyone else) if they flow. Though Rom 7 on its own proves the contentious point between us.


Paul had spoken much in previous chapters of us having a righteousness before God of faith, not law, we could not get to Heaven by being good enough, or earning our way there, it was by a free gift of faith.

He also had explained in the previous chapter that when the law was given sin increased, so the law did not just reveal the sin. He had also previously said that law brings wrath, if we live by law(striving to be good enough) faith has no value. BTW this is why all the other chapters should have been gone into first as I am sure you in your heart are well aware.
So Paul has been speaking of a righteousness/justification by faith, but he has also stressed that this will bring the law to be upheld in our lives Rom 3:31. So, by not living under the law but by faith in Christ we will as Christians live far more as God would have us live.

Rom ch 6

Paul is speaking of the Christian living in grace, not under the law.

He is in general terms talking of us being dead to sin and alive in Christ. Now, does this mean we will never do anything wrong and every day lead perfect lives in every way?' No. But we are not to concentrate on the sins of the flesh, set out to satisfy them. We are in grace and must look to Christ in our hearts and praise and worship him with thanksgiving for our salvation. We are to look to him, desiring in our hearts to follow him because we love him. We set our minds if you like on following after Christ, not on desiring to fulfiull the lusts of the flesh. And if
in our hearts we are looking to Christ, if we truly love him and want to follow him it would be impossible at the same time for us to be seeking ways to satisfy the sinful nature. This is important. If you disagree please let me know. So although we are not perfect in the body we in one sense count ourselves dead to sin as we are not looking to satisy the lusts of the flesh but trust in Christ.

verse 5

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires, but those who live in accordance with the spirit have their minds set on what the spirit desires.

So if we in our hearts do not have our minds set on what the flesh desires, but are following after the spirit we are living in true grace, as long as we are trusting in Christ.

In verse 6 Paul says
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with that we should NO LONGER BE SLAVES TO SIN-because anyone who has died has been freed from sin

Now, does this mean we will never once sin in any way? Of course not. But we will not be controlled by sin. There is a big difference between being controlled by sin/sin being our master and sin not being our master, but as humans we are still not perfect. Do any of us fully obey every teaching to the letter of Christ in the beatitudes or the rest of his commands? No we do not. Do we every minute of every day love our neighbour as ourself? No we don't(do we Zone!!) But their is much sin that if not dealt with will stop us taking up our cross and following Christ, it would consume us if not dealt with, it will be our master, we will be its slave. I know from experiance that you cannot be in a wrong relationship and still follow after Christ. The relationship drags you down, you are no longer close to Christ, you end up following the world. You lose your peace, heartfelt faith etc. You are a slave to the contunued wrong relationship and why you are in that relationship. I could go on and on but I am sure you get my drift.
But if I kicked the cat one morning(bless him) I may in one sense have sinned, but sin is not mastering me, I feel bad and don't do it again. If you cannot accept this then is no point in us going on here.

In verse 9
'you however are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the spirit, if the spirit of God lives in you.

I will come to the spirit later on, but Paul says we are not to be controlled by the sinful nature, we cannot be slaves to sin. We cannot set our hearts on what the sinful nature desires.

Now does this mean that all our lives we will look to Christ and trust him in the power of the Holy Spirit, we are secure with God by faith in his son who died for us, but we will see no victory over sin in our life?
We will not look to the lusts of the flesh and seek to satisfy them but to Christ in heartfelt faith and trust him, but still be consumed by sin?

For sin shall not be your master, FOR YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE
verse 14

Now, if sin is not our master it cannot control us, would you agree?

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey -whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obediance which leads to righteousness
verses 15&16

So because we are not under law but under grace sin will not be our master, it will not control our lives, we must not be slaves to sin, for that leads to death.

Just as you used to offer the parts of your body to impurity and to ever increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness

So the Christian under grace cannot go on giving their body over to impuritiy, so victory must come about by grace over such things. Does this mean we will never have an impure thought? No! But our bodies are not given over to impurity, we see much victory therefore in the flesh over our impurity

But now that you have been set free of sin and have become slaves to God the benefit you reap leads to hoiliness and the result is eternal life
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
verse 22&23

So, to sum up. We are to be dead to sin and alive in Christ by setting our hearts and minds on Christ and trusting him. We are secure with God by faith in his son. We are not under law but under grace. Therefore sin will not be our master and we are not to be slaves to sin

So, we must not look to satisfy the flesh but in our hearts look to Christ and trust him. We know that is our one and only righteousness for Heaven and because Christ is our one and only righteousness for Heaven and we are not under law sin will not be our master and we will see much victory over sin in our lives
Do we therefore nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law Rom 3:31(I know that is cheating)
Therefore if we live by faith in Christ, if we believe that is our one and only righteousness for Heaven, if we are not under the law, therefore we know in our hearts that security with God is dependant on believing in his son, not our own personal goodness we will actually uphold the good laws of God He would have us keep

Why is this?

Now I am going to a lot of trouble to accomodate you here, I hope you appreciate that though I am not convinced your motives are pure.
I ask that you respond to this chapter and tell me where you disagree. It will in no way change what I write concerning chapter 7 so you will see what you desire, the flow as you put it. But I prefer for one chapter at a time to be dealt with. Better we narrow down bit by bit where we disagreee I am sure you would not object to telling me where you may disagree with me here.
If you do not respond to this chapter I will write no more, but all I am sure will see who has made the effort and who has made no effort at all.

carry on LBG.
so Chapter 7 is next then.
thank you.

 

[livingbygrace]

carry on LBG.
so Chapter 7 is next then.
thank you.

Of course, after you tell me of anywhere you disagree with what I have thus far written

I am asking little of you, I am putting in nearly all the work. If you really in your heart with pure motives desire me to write an exposition of all three chapters you will firstly tell me if there is anything you disagree with concerning what I have written in ch 6
You would not mind doing that I am sure

 

[Red33]

Do you think that 'head knowledge' can't be put into practice by faith?

No I do not. It doesn't work like that.

I hear people who have much 'head knowledge' on this and another site tell people they are heretics if they do or do not believe in filique, they are heretics if they do or do not believe in the pre trib rapture, and they are heretics if they believe much else besides

But most of these people will not accept the plain and continuous words of Christ as to the neccessary belief in him for a person to have eternal life

It is not that I wish to repeat myself, but you did ask the question

Therefore, would the Holy Spirit contradict the plain and continuous words of Christ concerning how a person must see him to have eternal life

Answer, definately not

Therefore we have people driven by a 'head knoiwledge' that is not Holy Spirit inspired. Therefore they are speaking for themselves, and scripoture tells us they are then seeking honour for themselves, quite simple really

But the person who loves God and seeks in true humility from the heart to know truth. does not trust in themselves for understanding and earnestly asks God from the bottom of their heart to show them truth.
They totally rely on the Holy Spirit to show them truth, for in themselves thery know they can know nothnig. So there is no room for pride in any knowledge the Christian has and understands. And true knowledge depends on loving God and from the heart yielding to him, for then the Holy Spirit becomes more dominant in the person and reveals therefore more truth to them

And the surest wayu to know a true Christian is not whether they believe in filique or not(but one example) but whether from their heart they truly want God to have all the glory, therefore they cannot seek to impress man, that would be utterly impossible


So anyone who wants to impress their 'knowledge' on anyone else and is proud of heart definately is consumed by 'head theology' that in effect is their god.

When the Holy Spirit reveals truth it goes straight to the heart, not the head

Here's an illustration where we take the light of knowledge we have received from God's word (Ps 119:130) in the mind and through the application of faith, it is transferred to the heart to give experiential light to the believer to walk in lest that light be turned into darkness.

MY STRAW MAN

Let's say that you defrauded your brother in a business transaction and have not come clean (1Thes 4:6). Ten years go by and you remember that your brother has ought against you. You know what the scriptures teach, that you leave your gift at the altar and be reconciled to your brother, then come back and offer your gift (Mt 5:23,24). You have the knowledge of the truth but it has not become practical or beneficial until now (Heb 2:1, 4:2). You have a choice, you can agree and obey what the Holy Spirit has brought to your remembrance (Jn 14:26) and apply by faith what the scriptures teach you to do or you can ignore it and go on and offer your gift without being reconciled to your brother.

If you obey by faith and apply the knowledge of the truth that you have been given, that knowledge becomes experiential knowledge and you are cleansed of defrauding as you are reconciled to your brother, but if you do not obey by faith then you have not agreed with the Holy Spirit and the Spirit becomes your adversary and you have done despite unto the Spirit of grace (Heb 10:29) and things begin to happen in your emotions and with those that are close to you and in those things that you have an affection for. The blood is in the reconciliation and if it is not applied to bring about reconciliation then it has been trampled upon, not to nullify salvation but to bring peace (Col 1:20, Heb 13:20, 1Pt 1:2) and you are not able to drink the cup worthily and bring damnation (not eternal damnation but a measure of judgment) upon yourself (1Cor 11:27-31).

Notice what happens in (Mt 5:25,26), there is confinement of judgment. The light that you had from the knowledge that you were given (2Cor 4:6) turns into darkness instead of more light (Ps 36:9, 112:4) and their is no fellowship in the light and no cleansing (1Jn 1:6-9) but instead, only unfruitful works of darkness (Eph 5:8-11) and how great is that darkness (Mt 6:22,23). It is likened to those that hold the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18,19). But in this case it is not the wrath of God but His strong and mighty hand of chastisement which is very grievous and it will stay until it is accomplished and brings and yields a peaceable fruit of righteousness (Heb 12:5-13).

 

[livingbygrace]

Here's an illustration where we take the light of knowledge we have received from God's word (Ps 119:130) in the mind and through the application of faith, it is transferred to the heart to give experiential light to the believer to walk in lest that light be turned into darkness.

MY STRAW MAN

Let's say that you defrauded your brother in a business transaction and have not come clean (1Thes 4:6). Ten years go by and you remember that your brother has ought against you. You know what the scriptures teach, that you leave your gift at the altar and be reconciled to your brother, then come back and offer your gift (Mt 5:23,24). You have the knowledge of the truth but it has not become practical or beneficial until now (Heb 2:1, 4:2). You have a choice, you can agree and obey what the Holy Spirit has brought to your remembrance (Jn 14:26) and apply by faith what the scriptures teach you to do or you can ignore it and go on and offer your gift without being reconciled to your brother.

If you obey by faith and apply the knowledge of the truth that you have been given, that knowledge becomes experiential knowledge and you are cleansed of defrauding as you are reconciled to your brother, but if you do not obey by faith then you have not agreed with the Holy Spirit and the Spirit becomes your adversary and you have done despite unto the Spirit of grace (Heb 10:29) and things begin to happen in your emotions and with those that are close to you and in those things that you have an affection for. The blood is in the reconciliation and if it is not applied to bring about reconciliation then it has been trampled upon, not to nullify salvation but to bring peace (Col 1:20, Heb 13:20, 1Pt 1:2) and you are not able to drink the cup worthily and bring damnation (not eternal damnation but a measure of judgment) upon yourself (1Cor 11:27-31).

Notice what happens in (Mt 5:25,26), there is confinement of judgment. The light that you had from the knowledge that you were given (2Cor 4:6) turns into darkness instead of more light (Ps 36:9, 112:4) and their is no fellowship in the light and no cleansing (1Jn 1:6-9) but instead, only unfruitful works of darkness (Eph 5:8-11) and how great is that darkness (Mt 6:22,23). It is likened to those that hold the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18,19). But in this case it is not the wrath of God but His strong and mighty hand of chastisement which is very grievous and it will stay until it is accomplished and brings and yields a peaceable fruit of righteousness (Heb 12:5-13).

No offence Red, but if Zone agrees to my reasonable request and I continue writing the three chapters I would like to fully concentrate on this. I will when all three chapters have been completed return to your comments you are making concerning my posts

 

[Red33]

No offence Red, but if Zone agrees to my reasonable request and I continue writing the three chapters I would like to fully concentrate on this. I will when all three chapters have been completed return to your comments you are making concerning my posts

I posted it so that it will be there and whether you respond to it or not is inconsequential.

 

[zone]

Of course, after you tell me of anywhere you disagree with what I have thus far written

I am asking little of you, I am putting in nearly all the work. If you really in your heart with pure motives desire me to write an exposition of all three chapters you will firstly tell me if there is anything you disagree with concerning what I have written in ch 6
You would not mind doing that I am sure

dont knock yourself out with all that work LBG....serious?

why do you need me to comment?
you said 7 was about paul before his conversion.
i said it is not.

we discussed 6, 7 & 8.

i would like to see your explanantion / expository teaching on 7 and how it shows this is not part of the life of the regenerated christian (particularly the new convert).

if you decide to use 6 and 8 to prove 7 is not a christian experience, please carry on. i can comment when you're done if you like.

 

[livingbygrace]

dont knock yourself out with all that work LBG....serious?

why do you need me to comment?
you said 7 was about paul before his conversion.
i said it is not.

we discussed 6, 7 & 8.

i would like to see your explanantion / expository teaching on 7 and how it shows this is not part of the life of the regenerated christian (particularly the new convert).

if you decide to use 6 and 8 to prove 7 is not a christian experience, please carry on. i can comment when you're done if you like.

If you would really like to see my exposition of ch 7 concerning Paul speaking not of his Christian life but before he was a Christian I am positive you will comment on what I have written in ch 6 and show me where in your opinion I may be wrong in what I have written

But Don't worry Zone, if you will not comment on what I have written in ch 6 I understand why, but the offer was there to continue with this

 

[zone]

If you would really like to see my exposition of ch 7 concerning Paul speaking not of his Christian life but before he was a Christian I am positive you will comment on what I have written in ch 6 and show me where in your opinion I may be wrong in what I have written

But Don't worry Zone, if you will not comment on what I have written in ch 6 I understand why, but the offer was there to continue with this

stop acting childish LBG.
if you have something to teach, if you are able to show 7 is not about regenerated paul, just do it.
how can i follow the flow of your teaching when you keep interrupting?
carry on or don't.

(it would be helpful if you provided the text you are commenting on).

 

[livingbygrace]

stop acting childish LBG.
if you have something to teach, if you are able to show 7 is not about regenerated paul, just do it.
how can i follow the flow of your teaching when you keep interrupting?
carry on or don't.

(it would be helpful if you provided the text you are commenting on).

Well well well. You by your own admisssion have studdied and striven much to learn what you know. You are obviously more educated a person than am I, and you believe you are quite an authority on this subject, but if you were HONEST you do not want to comment on what I have written in ch 6. I would have thought it should be easy for someone with your learning from scholars/theologians to pull apart what I writre, or to have the courage to agree with it

I on the other hand have read nothing of theologians and scholars. I just read the Bible, and do not see myself as an authority on scripture, so why is it so hard for you to put in a bit of effort and comment on what I have written

You certainly would not lose the flow as you could easily read it all again afterwards when I had written my exposition of ch 7.

You also seem to be backtracking by now asking for my exposition of ch7 particularly concerning the new convert
You have stressed time and time again that Paul is speaking of his life AS a Christian, not of his life before he became a Christian. And can I remind you that it was you who asked me for an exposition on all three chapters, something I felt was needless, but as you have requested this and I have accomadated you, please comment on what I have written so far
If you do not, you simply prove everything I have been saying in this thread is the truth

 

[zone]

Well well well. You by your own admisssion have studdied and striven much to learn what you know. You are obviously more educated a person than am I, and you believe you are quite an authority on this subject, but if you were HONEST you do not want to comment on what I have written in ch 6. I would have thought it should be easy for someone with your learning from scholars/theologians to pull apart what I writre, or to have the courage to agree with it

I on the other hand have read nothing of theologians and scholars. I just read the Bible, and do not see myself as an authority on scripture, so why is it so hard for you to put in a bit of effort and comment on what I have written

You certainly would not lose the flow as you could easily read it all again afterwards when I had written my exposition of ch 7.

You also seem to be backtracking by now asking for my exposition of ch7 particularly concerning the new convert
You have stressed time and time again that Paul is speaking of his life AS a Christian, not of his life before he became a Christian. And can I remind you that it was you who asked me for an exposition on all three chapters, something I felt was needless, but as you have requested this and I have accomadated you, please comment on what I have written so far
If you do not, you simply prove everything I have been saying in this thread is the truth

LBG:
if you have a presentation to make which will show me Romans Chapter 7 is NOT about the Christan experience, please proceed.
you don't need my intermittent commentary.
i don't stand up in church and interrupt the preacher.
you're playing some head game that doesn't exist.

i'll read ALL of your teaching FIRST...then comment. i've already lost the flow of what you had done previously. i said i would empty my mind and try to follow the simple words of scripture: so far you've posted a few lines from scripture and commented or expounded on them. and that's fine....but incomplete.

the purpose was to prove that 7 isn't a christian experience: you haven't gotten to 7 yet so why would i comment? and what do you want me to say about chapter 6? you lay out your teaching, then i respond, then you respond, etc.

why are you inventing some interactive method of teaching? its just a distraction.

Romans 7
Released from the Law
1Or do you not know, brothersa—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.b 3Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

4Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.c

The Law and Sin
7What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

 

[livingbygrace]

LBG:
if you have a presentation to make which will show me Romans Chapter 7 is NOT about the Christan experience, please proceed.
you don't need my intermittent commentary.
i don't stand up in church and interrupt the preacher.
you're playing some head game that doesn't exist.

i'll read ALL of your teaching FIRST...then comment. i've already lost the flow of what you had done previously. i said i would empty my mind and try to follow the simple words of scripture: so far you've posted a few lines from scripture and commented or expounded on them. and that's fine....but incomplete.

the purpose was to prove that 7 isn't a christian experience: you haven't gotten to 7 yet so why would i comment? and what do you want me to say about chapter 6? you lay out your teaching, then i respond, then you respond, etc.

why are you inventing some interactive method of teaching? its just a distraction.

Romans 7
Released from the Law
1Or do you not know, brothersa—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.b 3Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

4Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.c

The Law and Sin
7What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Well firstly I do not profess to be a teacher of the word, but you continually asked me to write an exposition of chs 6, 7&8 and when I did not immediately do so suggested with sarcasm that I could not do so.

I will just be honest now. You and Red think so highly of the spiritual knowledge you both believe you have, but as soon as you are asked to respond to something most of the time we just get excuse after excuse

Empty vessels make the most noise!