Why it will be a pre-trib rapture and why the rapture takes place.

[Scribe]

If we follow the chronology based on the order the events as presented in 2 Kings and 2 Chronicles,

1. Jehoram is anointed king of Judah (2 Kings 1:17), ruling with his father, Jehoshaphat, for the final 5 or 6 years of his father’s reign.

2. Elijah is translated to heaven (2 Kings 2:1–18).

3. Jehoshaphat, advised by Elisha, teams with the king of Israel in a fight against Moab (2 Kings 3).

4. Jehoshaphat dies, leaving Jehoram to rule alone (2 Chronicles 21:1).

5. Jehoram murders all his brothers (2 Chronicles 21:4) and builds idolatrous high places in Judah (verse 11).

6. Jehoram receives a letter from Elijah that details his judgment (2 Chronicles 21:12–15).

So Elijah was taken up to the skies, the first heaven, and then brought back down again. He did not remain in heaven for all his life, and he never reached the 3rd heaven, where God is sitting.

John 3:13 made it clear "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Why couldn't Elijah have written the letter before he was translated and it was delivered later? Which would be the reason that it is a letter that is mentioned here. No reason to have him coming back down as you say.

Elijah was not translated until some time during the reign of Jehoram son of Ahab. Jehoram son of Ahab reigned in Israel from about 852 to 841 b.c. Jehoram son of Jehoshaphat reigned in Judah from 848 to 841 b.c. Therefore, since Elijah was not translated until some time in the reign of Jehoram of Israel, it is perfectly reasonable that he could have sent this letter to Jehoram of Judah.
from When Critics Ask: A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties (Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books, 1992). © 2014 Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe.

 

[Guojing]

Why couldn't Elijah have written the letter before he was translated and it was delivered later? Which would be the reason that it is a letter that is mentioned here. No reason to have him coming back down as you say.

Elijah was not translated until some time during the reign of Jehoram son of Ahab. Jehoram son of Ahab reigned in Israel from about 852 to 841 b.c. Jehoram son of Jehoshaphat reigned in Judah from 848 to 841 b.c. Therefore, since Elijah was not translated until some time in the reign of Jehoram of Israel, it is perfectly reasonable that he could have sent this letter to Jehoram of Judah.
from When Critics Ask: A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties (Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books, 1992). © 2014 Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe.

I am not ruling that remote possibility out.

But you do recognized that when the bible mention heaven, there is first, 2nd and third right?

So isn't John 3:13 clear in stating that Elijah never went up to where God's throne is, the 3rd heaven?

So you think Elijah is still hanging around the 1st heaven now?

 

[Scribe]

I am not ruling that possibility out.

But you do recognized that when the bible mention heaven, there is first, 2nd and third right?

So isn't John 3:13 clear in stating that Elijah never went up to where God's throne is, the 3rd heaven?

So you think Elijah is still hanging around the 1st heaven now?

I don't think anyone knows how the "heavens" work. All we can know is that it is spectacular, flaming horses and chariots and whirlwinds and we are not given more than a peek at to wow us and make us feel small and undone. There could be all sorts of divisions and places in the heavenlies for Enochs and Elijahs and Pauls to visit without contradicting what Jesus said. We call it all heaven because we don't know. The scriptures can say Elijah was caught up to heaven from the perspective of those who observed but Jesus lets us know that there is a place where the Father dwells that no man has been but Him and so we understand that without naming it the 3rd heaven. Maybe it is beyond the place that Paul called the 3rd heaven.

I mean if Paul considered the sky the first, the stars the 2nd and where he went as the third maybe that was just a way of describing a spiritual realm rather than the natural. A spiritual heavens not a natural physical definition of heavens like sky and stars. But not to mean that Paul himself was in the Throne of the Father when he had this experience. You see to say that the Father is in the 3rd heaven is not conclusive based on what Paul said. You make a logic leap that is not supported if you do.

 

[Guojing]

I don't think anyone knows how the "heavens" work. All we can know is that it is spectacular, flaming horses and chariots and whirlwinds and we are not given more than a peek at to wow us and make us feel small and undone. There could be all sorts of divisions and places in the heavenlies for Enochs and Elijahs and Pauls to visit without contradicting what Jesus said. We call it all heaven because we don't know. The scriptures can say Elijah was caught up to heaven from the perspective of those who observed but Jesus lets us know that there is a place where the Father dwells that no man has been but Him and so we understand that without naming it the 3rd heaven. Maybe it is beyond the place that Paul called the 3rd heaven.

Gen 1:20 heaven is where birds fly, that is the sky we see above us, the first heaven.

Isaiah 13:10 talks about the stars of heaven, so there is where the Sun is located, outer space, the 2nd heaven.

And of course, the one that many dispensationalists would know of, Paul talks about being caught up in the 3rd heaven (2 Cor 12:2-4). That is where the throne of God is, beyond outer space

 

[Scribe]

Gen 1:20 heaven is where birds fly, that is the sky we see above us, the first heaven.

Isaiah 13:10 talks about the stars of heaven, so there is where the Sun is located, outer space, the 2nd heaven.

And of course, the one that many dispensationalists would know of, Paul talks about being caught up in the 3rd heaven (2 Cor 12:2-4). That is where the throne of God is, beyond outer space

Not necessarily. It could simply be a way of saying a spiritual realm that Paul visited. Not sky, not space, but spiritual. And still not be where the Fathers Throne is that Jesus said no man but He has seen.
Elijah did not go to a cloud, he did not go to a planet, he went to a spiritual realm and that does not have to be the same thing Jesus said that only He had seen. We are left in the dark as to where he went. According to your definition there is only one level of the spiritual heaven and I doubt that. You have both 1st and 2nd being natural and not spiritual and leave only one level of a spiritual heaven called the 3rd but I don't think what Paul said supports that definition. Paul could just be making a point that he was in a spiritual realm, not the sky, not the space but the spiritual heavens. He was not trying to define all aspects of the spiritual realm he was in and I doubt he knew, he did not even know if he was in his body or out.

 

[Guojing]

Not necessarily. It could simply be a way of saying a spiritual realm that Paul visited. Not sky, not space, but spiritual. And still not be where the Fathers Throne is that Jesus said no man but He has seen.
Elijah did not go to a cloud, he did not go to a planet, he went to a spiritual realm and that does not have to be the same thing Jesus said that only He had seen. We are left in the dark as to where he went. According to your definition there is only one level of the spiritual heaven and I doubt that. You have both 1st and 2nd being natural and not spiritual and leave only one level of a spiritual heaven called the 3rd but I don't think what Paul said supports that definition. Paul could just be making a point that he was in a spiritual realm, not the sky, not the space but the spiritual heavens. He was not trying to define all aspects of the spiritual realm he was in and I doubt he knew, he did not even know if he was in his body or out.

So where do you think Elijah is in now?

 

[Scribe]

So where do you think Elijah is in now?

Some spiritual heavenly realm with Moses. (see mount of transfiguration) I don't think we are going to know before that which is perfect is come.

I have read interpretations that Jesus reference to John the Baptist was that of the spirit of Elijah and that a literal return of Elijah might still be a possible interpretation of the prophesies. I don't know.

 

[Guojing]

Some spiritual heavenly realm with Moses. (see mount of transfiguration) I don't think we are going to know before that which is perfect is come.

I have read interpretations that Jesus reference to John the Baptist was that of the spirit of Elijah and that a literal return of Elijah might still be a possible interpretation of the prophesies. I don't know.

But not the heaven where God's throne is correct?

 

[Scribe]

But not the heaven where God's throne is correct?

No. Not where Jesus said no man had been but Him. I am sure there are places for Enoch and Elijah to hang out that we know nothing about.

 

[Guojing]

No. Not where Jesus said no man had been but Him. I am sure there are places for Enoch and Elijah to hang out that we know nothing about.

In that case, we are probably thinking about the same area then. You call it "Some spiritual heavenly realm", I call it "Abraham's bosom/Paradise" (Luke 16:19-31, Luke 23:43) .

That part of the Earth that is separated from Hades, where all the OT saints are currently at, including Abraham and David.

They are all asleep waiting for the 2nd coming of Christ to redeem the nation Israel from their sins (Acts 3:19-21)

 

[laymen]

The point is, Elijah went up to the 1st heaven while the dad was still alive, but Jehoram only got that letter from Elijah after his dad died.

Anyway, John 3:13 lay rest to the "Elijah went up to the 3rd heaven" belief.

I think you need to do a study on the word Heaven here. Compare to Ezr 6:9 before assuming what heaven your talking about.

 

[Guojing]

I think you need to do a study on the word Heaven here. Compare to Ezr 6:9 before assuming what heaven your talking about.

Do you accept that heaven can mean skies, space, or God's throne location?

 

[laymen]

Do you accept that heaven can mean skies, space, or God's throne location?

Yes but you need to study the word buddy

 

[Guojing]

Yes but you need to study the word buddy

So with John 3:13, you still think Elijah went into the 3rd heaven?

 

[laymen]

So with John 3:13, you still think Elijah went into the 3rd heaven?

yes

 

[Guojing]

yes

So Jesus didn’t meant what he said there?

 

[laymen]

So Jesus didn’t meant what he said there?

No he just did not mean what you say.

 

[Guojing]

No he just did not mean what you say.

What do you think he meant then?

 

[KJV1611]

What do you think he meant then?

You are on the right track, Enoch nor Elijah went to the heaven where God lives. The souls of every believer in Old Testament times were taken out of their earthly bodies just prior to the death of their earthly body. They were taken to Abraham's bosom patiently waiting for Christ to pay for their redemption.

 

[Lafftur]

Hello @Absolutely and @Ahwatukee,

I know what I am saying is waaaaay out there and no where near mainstream understanding of the end times but, it is how I see it from scripture and understand it.

The 7 years of Tribulation are NOT consecutive. No where does it say in scripture the 7 years are consecutive - it just says there are 7 years of Tribulation.

People misinterpret the scriptures because they approach the 7 years Tribulation as being consecutive. However, they are split between Jesus Christ (3 1/2 years) and the anti-christ (3 1/2 years).

Jesus Christ and John the Baptist are going to be mirrored by the anti-christ and the false prophet - just a FAKE replica of the True Christ and John the Baptist.

Jesus Christ brought PEACE and did AWAY with the sacrifice within 3 1/2 years in public ministry.

The anti-christ brings woe and demands to be worshipped or we die in public arena.

So, there is no Pre-Trib because the the tribulation has already started. We're in the middle during a time of grace - time of the Gentiles while we are waiting for the anti-Christ to show up because he also gets 3 1/2 years on the Earth just like Jesus.