Did the Church institute Dec 25th to replace Pagan Festivals with a Christian Theme?

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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,187
6,530
113
#21
They most probably did. The leaders of the Early Church were combating long years of traditional celebration of pagan holidays/feasts that the gentiles had participated in.

I have ZERO problem with it. The way I see it........them evil pagans have had a good run, NOW IT IS TIME FOR THE CHURCH! Besides, whatever we do, IF we do it to worship and praise God, He will bless us......

Colossians, Chapter 3:

17) And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,177
113
#22
not sure why its december 25th. summer and winter Solstice occurs at this time of year but not usually on the 25th, more often than not is 21-22 dec.

I dont know if it was the church that offically designated the sholiday, but more the roman emperors ruling at the time, who were newly converted pagans to christianity. The church has always focused on epiphany, pentecost or passover rather than christmas day. The very first Lords supper WAS at passover, we just observe it whenever now (once a week in some churches)

Maybe christmas day is something that just kind of 'snowballed' from roman times? In any case, whether we observe or not, it IS an opportunity to share with unbelievers who Jesus is.
 
Nov 15, 2020
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Newcastle, NSW, Australia
#23
Share Jesus all you like on the day, but Dec 25 is no more significant than every other day, or date, on the calendar
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#24
Pagan myth contains a measure of truth. Think of Paul finding the Unknown God among the Greeks as a measure of truth and attempting to convince them they already worship the same God as he came to reveal. This pattern of pointing truth found in pagan myth to it's true object Christ is how the Pagan religions were converted.
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Aug 14, 2019
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#25
Share Jesus all you like on the day, but Dec 25 is no more significant than every other day, or date, on the calendar
I don't think that's so.
If for us it's the day He was born its as significant as if it were.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#26
Christmas and easter is a tradition of man and not a biblical practice. Easter is in acts, and comes from Ishtar; the only tradition that Jesus instituted is Passover/communion
Easter comes from the German word Oester which means rising sun, it's not related to Ishtar in any way.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,229
6,526
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#27
The name, easter is derived from the name of the Germanic godess of fertility,

EOSTRE - the Anglo-Saxon Goddess of Fertility (Germanic mythology) (godchecker.com)

EOSTRE
Anglo-Saxon Fertility Goddess
Also known as Eastre, Ēostre, Ostara

Spring Goddess of Fertility and bouncy bunny girl
She has her own festival on 21 March, the Spring Equinox, in which bouncing springy behavior is encouraged.
A Germanic goddess, Eostre was very popular with the Anglo-Saxon pagan brigade who worshiped her under the name — and kicked off the whole Easter business without a Jesus in sight. If you ever wondered what eggs and bunnies have to do with crucifixion and resurrection, the answer is: absolutely nothing.

There is more in the link above.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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#28
The name, easter is derived from the name of the Germanic godess of fertility,

EOSTRE - the Anglo-Saxon Goddess of Fertility (Germanic mythology) (godchecker.com)

EOSTRE
Anglo-Saxon Fertility Goddess
Also known as Eastre, Ēostre, Ostara

Spring Goddess of Fertility and bouncy bunny girl
She has her own festival on 21 March, the Spring Equinox, in which bouncing springy behavior is encouraged.
A Germanic goddess, Eostre was very popular with the Anglo-Saxon pagan brigade who worshiped her under the name — and kicked off the whole Easter business without a Jesus in sight. If you ever wondered what eggs and bunnies have to do with crucifixion and resurrection, the answer is: absolutely nothing.

There is more in the link above.
That whole idea of Easter deriving from Eostre comes from ONE HERETIC a few hundred years ago and he had ZERO evidence to support his claim. Easter comes from here:

The origin of Easter

The English word Easter and the German Ostern come from a common origin (Eostur, Eastur, Ostara, Ostar), which to the Norsemen meant the season of the rising (growing) sun, the season of new birth. The word was used by our ancestors to designate the Feast of New Life in the spring. The same root is found in the name for the place where the sun rises (East, Ost). The word Easter, then, originally meant the celebration of the spring sun, which had its birth in the East and brought new life upon earth. This symbolism was transferred to the supernatural meaning of our Easter, to the new life of the Risen Christ, the eternal and uncreated Light. Based on a passage in the writings of Saint Bede the Venerable (735), the term Easter has often been explained as the name of an Anglo-Saxon goddess (Eostre), though no such goddess is known in the mythologies of any Germanic tribe. Modern research has made it quite clear that Saint Bede erroneously interpreted the name of the season as that of a goddess.​
Source: Francis X. Weiser, Handbook of Christian Feasts and Customs (New York: Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc., 1958), p. 211. Copyright 1952 by Francis X. Weiser.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,229
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#29
I have known the etymology of the word, easter, since my time of university study of linguistics at the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana.

You will find this understanding in encyclopedias such as the Britannica, te Americana and more.

Now all scholarly vying aside, there is nothing so worth arguing here, it is a word, not the Cross of our Savior, so why do you insist upon arguing with those who have researched the subject ? I was simply giving what I have learned, not arguing, nor will I. Shalom Chavari. (Peace my friend.)
 
Nov 23, 2013
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#30
I have known the etymology of the word, easter, since my time of university study of linguistics at the University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana.

You will find this understanding in encyclopedias such as the Britannica, te Americana and more.

Now all scholarly vying aside, there is nothing so worth arguing here, it is a word, not the Cross of our Savior, so why do you insist upon arguing with those who have researched the subject ? I was simply giving what I have learned, not arguing, nor will I. Shalom Chavari. (Peace my friend.)
I was simply correcting the heresy of Beade.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#31
That I think it is silly of people to want to obey man instead of God is NOT telling them they must do this. They have finally and absolutely decided not to. Now you are indicating they don't want to hear about those scriptures even.

There should be a new bible written for today's church, taking out every scripture that speaks to Israel, that gives any of the Lord's law, or tells about the feasts.
The problem with the popula
That I think it is silly of people to want to obey man instead of God is NOT telling them they must do this. They have finally and absolutely decided not to. Now you are indicating they don't want to hear about those scriptures even.

There should be a new bible written for today's church, taking out every scripture that speaks to Israel, that gives any of the Lord's law, or tells about the feasts.
Just learn to read the bible that you have. Read some Bible reference books to help you. Maybe a Systematic Theology book for starters. Then a New Testament Survey and Old Testament Survey. Hermeneutics is useful. (interpreting) And for you, get a book about the Dead Sea Scrolls written by a scholar, not a cult member making up lies.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,300
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#32
Did the Church institute Dec 25th to replace Pagan Festivals with a Christian Theme? Is there recorded history of these discussions or meetings or edicts? Was it Saturnalia or Mithraism that they were attempting to compete with? Or all of the pagan festivals during this time of the year (winter soltice.)

Much is said about this every year, and articles from Google searches are posted but I am under the impression that to much is being said about Saturnalia that is not in the historical record as the reason given for choosing this day.

Is there early Christian writings explaining any of these decisions. When was there a council or an edict or a recorded decision. Posting information about what Pagans did no Dec 25 is not helpful in answering my question.

Where did the church officially discuss it? I am assuming there is something before the middle ages where it does show up in church discussions.
If the discussions as to why the early church chose Dec 25th do not appear until the middle ages after it had already been observed since the 5th century then how credible are those middle age explanations.

The best explanations I have heard so far have been about the influence of Mithraism that they were battling in the first 200 years. Below is an example, but I have read better ones in the past that go deeper into the temptation it had for Christians who wanted to have influence in business and society. And this influence of Mithraism was what the early church was combating when it chose Dec 25th, to destract Christians from celebrating Mithric feasts. I am sure that the side benefit would be to distract them from all of the other winter soltice pagan feasts as well, but what was the most popular among the pagans was not really the main target, it was combatting what Christians were falling into, the mithraism cult that was mixing with chrisitanity in teachings and practice.

https://postbarthian.com/2018/11/02...-the-sun-god-mithra-feat-wolfhart-pannenberg/
In Wolfhart Pannenberg's essay "Myth in the Biblical and Christian tradition", he explains that Christianity has reappropriated pagan and Jewish myths throughout history in order to demythologize them. Many evangelicals today try to prove that Jesus was born on December 25th, and deny that Christmas has any pagan origin or identification with the winter solstice pagan feasts. On the contrary, Pannenberg argues that Christmas is a deliberate commandeering of the pagan winter solstice festival Sol Invictus, that celebrated the birth of Mithra, the unconquered sun god worshiped in mystery religions throughout the Roman empire. As Christians completed with sun god worship, they chose to celebrate the birth of Jesus, in place of the birth of Mithra on December 25th, which was the winter solstice according to the Julian calendar. After all, Jesus was the greater Mithra, and the true light that was coming into the world, so it was appropriate to celebrate Jesus with similar light metaphors. Pannenberg argues that pagan myths like Mithra cult represent ready made cloaks that were applied to Jesus as part of demythologizing Pagan and Jewish myths. Christianity did not have a traditional day for celebrating the birth of Jesus until the fourth century, when it assumed December 25th from Mithra.

The same evangelicals I mentioned continue this same synchronistic praxis when they celebrate fall parties on halloween or thanksgiving, or have special services to celebrate memorial day or independence days today. Ultimately the goal in reappropriating the winter solstice festival was not to synchronize with mystery religions, but to demythologize those pagan myths that competed with Christianity.

Wolfhart Pannenberg ends his essay "Myth in the Biblical and Christian tradition" (available in The Idea of God and Human Freedom) with this commentary on the origin of Christmas:
We know that there is no way to know the actual day of the Bith of Christ. It appears the date of the 25th was chosen by the early church to combat paganism.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#33
We know that there is no way to know the actual day of the Bith of Christ. It appears the date of the 25th was chosen by the early church to combat paganism.
Yes, I have not been interested enough to do serious research, but I came across the information about Mithraism in one of my College text books a few months back and it made me realize how little people really know about the origins of using that date.

No one has ever discussed Mithraism in the first century and the Dec 25th Christmas date in these posts or on social media posts that float everywhere this time of year (that I have seen) And it might be the actual truth behind the origins. Probably is. I have not done enough research to say for sure. But I am thinking I have found the smoking gun.

The early bishops were actively engaged in contending with this cult among their members. They may have started the Dec 25th observance to combat the Mithra holiday but people not knowing about that thought it was about Saturnalia.

It doesn't really matter, that much. It is just that if people think it is important to tell everyone about the origins of Dec 25th they should do their due diligence to get the facts right or not take up the cause at all.

There is nothing more irritating than someone on an information crusade who is championing the wrong information because they did not read the history from historical records in extant.

Well, there are a few things more irritating, like rubbing your eye after deseeding jalapenos, but it is up there at the top of the irritating list. :)
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,300
4,043
113
#34
Yes, I have not been interested enough to do serious research, but I came across the information about Mithraism in one of my College text books a few months back and it made me realize how little people really know about the origins of using that date.

No one has ever discussed Mithraism in the first century and the Dec 25th Christmas date in these posts or on social media posts that float everywhere this time of year (that I have seen) And it might be the actual truth behind the origins. Probably is. I have not done enough research to say for sure. But I am thinking I have found the smoking gun.

The early bishops were actively engaged in contending with this cult among their members. They may have started the Dec 25th observance to combat the Mithra holiday but people not knowing about that thought it was about Saturnalia.

It doesn't really matter, that much. It is just that if people think it is important to tell everyone about the origins of Dec 25th they should do their due diligence to get the facts right or not take up the cause at all.

There is nothing more irritating than someone on an information crusade who is championing the wrong information because they did not read the history from historical records in extant.

Well, there are a few things more irritating, like rubbing your eye after deseeding jalapenos, but it is up there at the top of the irritating list. :)
Thank you, I think it is a good read and discussion of Mithraism
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,681
13,368
113
#35
Look up saturnalia. Why christianise something that's pagan ? I will say that it's your choice to believe what you do; I've done my own research about it because of the stupid Santa gimmick.
How is it pagan to celebrate the incarnation of Jesus Christ?
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#38
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
12,300
4,043
113
#39

How stupid.

It would be funny if, those who bring up this garbage each time about two to three weeks before Christmas each year.

Yet many of these same types of self-professing Christians who will support gay marriage and abortion and transgender.

They bring up this false narrative of Egyptian gods yet No Christian church has taught to worship a false god born on the 25th of December. In my 50 years, I have never heard one Pastor teach we are worshiping this false god by default. The reason why is because in the CHURCH historically this date of December 25th has been solely about the advent season. In other words, we focus on Jesus!

These hypocrites have sought to change the historical narrative by introducing a demonic god and associate it with the Birth of Christ that historically the Chruch NEVER even brought up, why? Because the Church doesn't worship this false god of Egypt or any other pagan god by default.

Most who promote this are atheists. Many of them have family issues and they themselves never taught this in their own homes and learned that Christmas was about the birth of Jesus as the church teaches.

Those who are divorced, have family issues, or just plain angry with their life seek on Youtube these wannabe theologians to interject a false god into the church narrative of Jesus's birth.

NONE of which I might add use the Bible to bring that point out they had to seek outside of the word of God to discredit the word of God which tell us Jesus was born in a stable and the worship was given to HIm recorded in the Gospels.

They are deceptive. Do they look for good no, do they look for what is praiseworthy? no, do they stay in the word of God? no.

You continue to celebrate Christmas and correct any foolish person who wrongfully suggests we the Church worship a false god or pagan god.

Those hypocrites will eat Christmas dinner, buy gifts or will receive gifts, or service in the name of Christmas yet say such stupid things.
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
#40
How stupid.

It would be funny if, those who bring up this garbage each time about two to three weeks before Christmas each year.

Yet many of these same types of self-professing Christians who will support gay marriage and abortion and transgender.

They bring up this false narrative of Egyptian gods yet No Christian church has taught to worship a false god born on the 25th of December. In my 50 years, I have never heard one Pastor teach we are worshiping this false god by default. The reason why is because in the CHURCH historically this date of December 25th has been solely about the advent season. In other words, we focus on Jesus!

These hypocrites have sought to change the historical narrative by introducing a demonic god and associate it with the Birth of Christ that historically the Chruch NEVER even brought up, why? Because the Church doesn't worship this false god of Egypt or any other pagan god by default.

Most who promote this are atheists. Many of them have family issues and they themselves never taught this in their own homes and learned that Christmas was about the birth of Jesus as the church teaches.

Those who are divorced, have family issues, or just plain angry with their life seek on Youtube these wannabe theologians to interject a false god into the church narrative of Jesus's birth.

NONE of which I might add use the Bible to bring that point out they had to seek outside of the word of God to discredit the word of God which tell us Jesus was born in a stable and the worship was given to HIm recorded in the Gospels.

They are deceptive. Do they look for good no, do they look for what is praiseworthy? no, do they stay in the word of God? no.

You continue to celebrate Christmas and correct any foolish person who wrongfully suggests we the Church worship a false god or pagan god.

Those hypocrites will eat Christmas dinner, buy gifts or will receive gifts, or service in the name of Christmas yet say such stupid things.
I think the cartoon is making the same points you are. It's satire.