Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"
- Thread starter MyrtleTrees
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Multiple red herrings in one post. Are you shooting for a record?
A. Chosen according to foreknowledge is taught by Peter. Paul links foreknowledge and predestination.
B. Did God choose the plan of redemption before sin existed or after. He chose the plan of redemption before, based on His foreknowledge. So your argument is a non sequitur.
C. Not even the Westminster Confession says God caused evil. Red Herring on your part.
A. Chosen according to foreknowledge is taught by Peter. Paul links foreknowledge and predestination.
B. Did God choose the plan of redemption before sin existed or after. He chose the plan of redemption before, based on His foreknowledge. So your argument is a non sequitur.
C. Not even the Westminster Confession says God caused evil. Red Herring on your part.
Which verse says he chose Noah before he was born. You cannot lump everything into 'foreknowledge '.
Gen 6.8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4.3 .
Heb 11
5¶By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God .
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
1 cor 1.21
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe .
Gen 6.8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4.3 .
Heb 11
5¶By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God .
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
1 cor 1.21
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe .
There's nowhere in the scriptures where "foreknow" with regard to salvation is associated with a time limit of five minutes. I know it's somewhat of a figure of speech, but everything the scripture says in this regard is with reference and often clearly so has referring to before the foundation of the earth. This is because the plan of salvation is eternal, because God is eternal.
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Quite the contrary. If you'll take a look at the portions I bolded above from Ephesians 1 you'll see it's a rather charitable option when reading scripture plainly. I'm not scholar of ancient language so I tend to rely on English, but "before the foundation of the world" is clearly a reference to the creation of the world. It also clearly says that he chose us.
Elsewhere we also learn that part of the "mechanics" of this is limited to God acting as the "first mover" and not man. John 6 Jesus is addressing a group of Jews talking about the bread of life, and he says
John 6
41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
As you can see, Jesus is saying that man does not have the ability to come to him unless the father draws them first. This is a reference to having been chosen by God.
Let's look at what happens in Genesis 6.
5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
9 This is the account of Noah and his family.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.
11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[d] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[e] high all around.[f] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks.
Notice here the language is clear that Noah did not have any foreknowledge of what was about to happen to the world. Nor did he have any knowledge prior to the occurrence that God would choose to preserve mankind through him. He did not choose to build an Ark so much as God chose Noah to build the Ark. This is a pattern that is established over and over again in scripture. We can dispute the nature of what that choosing is and the nature of the chosen, but it's an unescapable theme. You are right to say that in the dynamic between God and Noah and the construction of the Ark that the relationship of Choser:Chosen is God:Noah.
Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Quite the contrary. If you'll take a look at the portions I bolded above from Ephesians 1 you'll see it's a rather charitable option when reading scripture plainly. I'm not scholar of ancient language so I tend to rely on English, but "before the foundation of the world" is clearly a reference to the creation of the world. It also clearly says that he chose us.
Elsewhere we also learn that part of the "mechanics" of this is limited to God acting as the "first mover" and not man. John 6 Jesus is addressing a group of Jews talking about the bread of life, and he says
John 6
41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
As you can see, Jesus is saying that man does not have the ability to come to him unless the father draws them first. This is a reference to having been chosen by God.
Let's look at what happens in Genesis 6.
5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
9 This is the account of Noah and his family.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.
11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[d] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[e] high all around.[f] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks.
Notice here the language is clear that Noah did not have any foreknowledge of what was about to happen to the world. Nor did he have any knowledge prior to the occurrence that God would choose to preserve mankind through him. He did not choose to build an Ark so much as God chose Noah to build the Ark. This is a pattern that is established over and over again in scripture. We can dispute the nature of what that choosing is and the nature of the chosen, but it's an unescapable theme. You are right to say that in the dynamic between God and Noah and the construction of the Ark that the relationship of Choser:Chosen is God:Noah.