Lost Gospel of Evangelicalism

[presidente]

That was not the issue. The issue was that I said the ass prophesied and you disagreed. I quoted 1st Corinthians 14:3 to show that any inspired speaking unto admonition, exhortation and/or comfort by the Holy Spirit, was defined as prophecy.

I would like to further comment here, now that I am using a keyboard. I Corinthians 14:3 tells what prophesying does, not what prophesying is.

If someone speaks revelatory words to the congregation at the moving of the Holy Spirit, he speaks to comfort, edification, and exhortation. That does not mean anyone who speaks of comfort, edification, or exhortation is speaking under the moving of the Spirit. If you look at Romans 12, prophesying and exhortation are treated as two distinct gifts. Teaching is also treated as a separate gift in that passage. Prophets and teachers are different ministries in I Corinthians 12. Prophets are a different category from pastors and teachers in Ephesians 4.

Let's say two prisoners are talking to each other. One of them says to the other, "Don't worry. The parole board will let you out next week and you will still get to be with your children during their holiday break from school." Those are comforting words, but the next week, the parole board says no, and the guy ends up in jail. It wasn't a prophecy, just comforting words.

You then disagreed and gave, as your reason, that prophecy was rather defined in 2nd Peter 1:21. That is, the Holy Spirit "moving" on a speaker. I countered with my question as to why you regard prophecy as being moved by the Holy Spirit, but don't think a dumb animal speaking in the middle of a situation where God is trying to make a statement is NOT God moving. The short of it is,

1. If it was the Holy Spirit that gave revelation and utterance to the ass, it is, by your definition in 2nd Peter 1 - prophecy
2. If was not the Holy Spirit, who then "moved" the ass, first to see danger, second to save his master's life, and third, to speak?
3. If you are unable to show otherwise, the ass spoke as he was moved by the Holy Spirit and, by YOUR selection of 2nd Peter 1, the ass PROPHESIED

I rest my case, even if you disagree with 1st Corinthians 14:3. In this scripture I understand the ass to have "admonished" Balaam, and to have "comforted" him in that he avoided death - all by the power of the Holy Spirit - which is called "Prophesying" by the wording of that verse.

Whether the donkey admonished, edified, or exhorted Balaam is not the issue. The passage says that the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey and she spoke to Balaam. It does not say that God gave the donkey a prophetic message. When the donkey asked why Balaam "What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?", she was not asking why Balaam had smitted the Lord. She was enabled to speak, and then spoke. There is no evidence that the donkey prophesied.

 

[Dino246]

Perhaps it just the way you perceive what is taught from the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

How does the way that I (allegedly) perceive what is taught from the Scripture shape the falsehoods that you invent and post, and claim are "constrained by the mind of Christ" and posted "For the cause of Christ"?

You need to own your behaviour, Roger.

 

[throughfaith]

Aaahhh! Now I understand. You think that the "sin" (singular) is not believing in Jesus. I can see how you come to that.

I will not object, but I will pose you a question. You don't have to answer, but do you know why the Offerings of Leviticus have FIVE main Offerings? Because there are five major problems with man's position. And Christ is the fulfillment of all the Offerings to solve these problems. Offering number 4 is the "SIN" (singular) Offering. It deals with a problem. And Offering number 5 is the "TRESPASS" (plural) Offering. It deals with another problem. Do you know the difference? The answer is in Romans where "sin" (singular) is used many times, but the term "sins" (plural) is only used about 4 times.

When John writes that the Holy Spirit convicts of "SIN", it is the SINGULAR. It cannot mean "SINS" (plural). Otherwise the Holy Spirit would have said so.

I just believe the Holy Spirit convicts the world of the sin of not Believing on Jesus . Thats it . I think we need a verse that says the Holy Spirit is convicting people of all the bad stuff they have done . I don't see it .

 

[throughfaith]

Aaahhh! Now I understand. You think that the "sin" (singular) is not believing in Jesus. I can see how you come to that.

I will not object, but I will pose you a question. You don't have to answer, but do you know why the Offerings of Leviticus have FIVE main Offerings? Because there are five major problems with man's position. And Christ is the fulfillment of all the Offerings to solve these problems. Offering number 4 is the "SIN" (singular) Offering. It deals with a problem. And Offering number 5 is the "TRESPASS" (plural) Offering. It deals with another problem. Do you know the difference? The answer is in Romans where "sin" (singular) is used many times, but the term "sins" (plural) is only used about 4 times.

When John writes that the Holy Spirit convicts of "SIN", it is the SINGULAR. It cannot mean "SINS" (plural). Otherwise the Holy Spirit would have said so.

I think if the Holy spirit is convicting people of all the bad stuff they done would elevate some sins above others . When truly the only sin that matters is believing on Jesus or not .

 

[presidente]

I just believe the Holy Spirit convicts the world of the sin of not Believing on Jesus . Thats it . I think we need a verse that says the Holy Spirit is convicting people of all the bad stuff they have done . I don't see it .

Well, the Lord did say that the Spirit would convict of sin because they believe not in Him. The passage does not say that He would convict of the sin of not believing in Jesus.

 

[throughfaith]

Well, the Lord did say that the Spirit would convict of sin because they believe not in Him. The passage does not say that He would convict of the sin of not believing in Jesus.

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

 

[Corban]

I would like to further comment here, now that I am using a keyboard. I Corinthians 14:3 tells what prophesying does, not what prophesying is.

If someone speaks revelatory words to the congregation at the moving of the Holy Spirit, he speaks to comfort, edification, and exhortation. That does not mean anyone who speaks of comfort, edification, or exhortation is speaking under the moving of the Spirit. If you look at Romans 12, prophesying and exhortation are treated as two distinct gifts. Teaching is also treated as a separate gift in that passage. Prophets and teachers are different ministries in I Corinthians 12. Prophets are a different category from pastors and teachers in Ephesians 4.

Let's say two prisoners are talking to each other. One of them says to the other, "Don't worry. The parole board will let you out next week and you will still get to be with your children during their holiday break from school." Those are comforting words, but the next week, the parole board says no, and the guy ends up in jail. It wasn't a prophecy, just comforting words.




Whether the donkey admonished, edified, or exhorted Balaam is not the issue. The passage says that the Lord opened the mouth of the donkey and she spoke to Balaam. It does not say that God gave the donkey a prophetic message. When the donkey asked why Balaam "What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?", she was not asking why Balaam had smitted the Lord. She was enabled to speak, and then spoke. There is no evidence that the donkey prophesied.

O.K. But in posting # 15 you said that, "Peter described prophesyin as 'spake as moved by the Holy Ghost". So Peter made a mistake. That is a bold claim.

We do not discuss what the scriptures did not say. WE are comparing that which IS written to what you and I have written.

 

[Corban]

I just believe the Holy Spirit convicts the world of the sin of not Believing on Jesus . Thats it . I think we need a verse that says the Holy Spirit is convicting people of all the bad stuff they have done . I don't see it .

O.K. Let us examine Romans 5:12-14

12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

In verse 12, "sin" (singular) entered the world by one man. Then, by the Law of KINDS in Genesis 1:12-13, when Adam had offspring, this "sin" (singular) was passed on to ALL men. Then, verse 14 says that "them" (all men) had to die even though they did not transgress like Adam. So you have to explain;

1. Is God fair to cause men to die for something they did not do?
2. What then is the meaning of our verse under discussion, John 16:8, in which "sin" (singular) is reproved?

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and (he will reprove the world) of righteousness, and (he will reprove the world) of judgment"

It is not so easy, because there are three things that the Holy Spirit reproves of; (i) sin (singular), (ii) righteousness, and (iii) judgment. What ever you apply to one, you have to apply to the other two. That is the grammar. Why reprove of judgement if the "sin" (singular) WAS ADAM'S and NOT theirs?

You don't have to answer. But you can see that your meaning is now doubtful? Much more, the meaning is that the Holy Spirit, among other duties, will convict of an Adamic nature and its fruits. This will drive the man reproved into Jesus' arms.

 

[Corban]

I think if the Holy spirit is convicting people of all the bad stuff they done would elevate some sins above others . When truly the only sin that matters is believing on Jesus or not .

See my answer to posting # 63.

 

[throughfaith]

O.K. Let us examine Romans 5:12-14

12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

In verse 12, "sin" (singular) entered the world by one man. Then, by the Law of KINDS in Genesis 1:12-13, when Adam had offspring, this "sin" (singular) was passed on to ALL men. Then, verse 14 says that "them" (all men) had to die even though they did not transgress like Adam. So you have to explain;

1. Is God fair to cause men to die for something they did not do?
2. What then is the meaning of our verse under discussion, John 16:8, in which "sin" (singular) is reproved?

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and (he will reprove the world) of righteousness, and (he will reprove the world) of judgment"

It is not so easy, because there are three things that the Holy Spirit reproves of; (i) sin (singular), (ii) righteousness, and (iii) judgment. What ever you apply to one, you have to apply to the other two. That is the grammar. Why reprove of judgement if the "sin" (singular) WAS ADAM'S and NOT theirs?

You don't have to answer. But you can see that your meaning is now doubtful? Much more, the meaning is that the Holy Spirit, among other duties, will convict of an Adamic nature and its fruits. This will drive the man reproved into Jesus' arms.

The verse in question.

7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12¶I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

So just dealing with what the text says. What's the ' because ' ?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

According to the scriptures, a person's conversion needs three steps.

1. The Holy Spirit must work inside them to convince them of "sin and judgment" (Jn.16:8)
2. When the realization of their sins and impending judgment have worked, somebody has to tell of the way out (Rom.10:13-14)
3. When they believe, they must also confess what is in their heart (Rom.10:10-13)

The Holy Spirit convicts, and gives faith. The way out is told by a Christian. The person themself must believe and confess. If just ONE of these three are missing, there is no conversion (this time). Blik's table-mate seems to me not to be convicted. Whether you told or not, I judge that you would not have made a difference. This does not excuse a Christian from preaching the gospel, but an obviously aggressive, dismissive and/or abusive person is unlikely to have been convicted, and less likely to confess.

It would be unlikely, if not impossible, for the natural, unregenerate, man to discern the things of the Spirit, because he thinks they are foolishness. and neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned. Only the born again person with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is able to be convinced of sin and judgement. and are the only ones that can hear to understand the things of the Spirit.

A person is already born again before they believe, repent, or confess. The scriptures you have quoted have reference to regenerated people.

Many people believe that conversion is the new birth. Being born again comes first, then conversion comes later after they have grown to maturity.

 

[Corban]

The verse in question.

7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12¶I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

So just dealing with what the text says. What's the ' because ' ?

Good question. Man's basic religion is Gnosticism. Gnosticism says that man is essentially good, but that his environment (the things around him) make him bad. The solution is a small group of "illumined ones" - or "Gnostics", who have special knowledge. The man had a bad childhood so he is forced, against his good nature, to buy a rifle and kill 20 school children. We put him in rehab for 5 years in a institute paid by those hardworking citizens who go to work and don't shoot people, and then let him loose. And of course, the evil was the gun and not the man. This essentially puts the blame on the Maker of the environment - God. It attributes man's depravity to God.

But the Bible says that since the fall, man is essentially evil and depraved, and that sins (plural) are the fruit of this depravity. The environment is good as God is not the author of evil. This presumes then that the depraved man needs an outside Savior, as his depravity is irreversible. This Biblical thought process is abhorrent to men. That is why it is so hard to reach men with the gospel. The man must admit his depravity and God's goodness. This he hates. So the Holy Spirit is given, as one of His duties, the job of working in a man to get him to admit his "sin" (singular) nature - the nature he inherited from Adam, which is responsible for all his evil ways.

If a man is worked on yb the Holy Spirit till he realizes and admits his depravity, he is then faced with despair. What will become of such evil men? That is when you come in with the gospel. What happens when a desperate man hears the gospel? He BELIEVES! And what happens when he believes? The wages of "sin" (singular) is death (Rom.6:23) and the solution to death is ETERNAL LIFE. The believeing man is given LIFE (Jn.3:14-16, 20:30-31). So the Holy Spirit's job is to reprove of sin BECAUSE men do not BELIEVE in Jesus and death is their portion.

That, I judge, is the meaning of John 18:8-9.

 

[Corban]

It would be unlikely, if not impossible, for the natural, unregenerate, man to discern the things of the Spirit, because he thinks they are foolishness. and neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned. Only the born again person with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is able to be convinced of sin and judgement. and are the only ones that can hear to understand the things of the Spirit.

A person is already born again before they believe, repent, or confess. The scriptures you have quoted have reference to regenerated people.

Many people believe that conversion is the new birth. Being born again comes first, then conversion comes later after they have grown to maturity.

You'll have to give scripture for this.

Consider this passage. It pointedly addresses the unbeliever. 1st Corinthians 14:23-25.

23 "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth."

 

[throughfaith]

Good question. Man's basic religion is Gnosticism. Gnosticism says that man is essentially good, but that his environment (the things around him) make him bad. The solution is a small group of "illumined ones" - or "Gnostics", who have special knowledge. The man had a bad childhood so he is forced, against his good nature, to buy a rifle and kill 20 school children. We put him in rehab for 5 years in a institute paid by those hardworking citizens who go to work and don't shoot people, and then let him loose. And of course, the evil was the gun and not the man. This essentially puts the blame on the Maker of the environment - God. It attributes man's depravity to God.

But the Bible says that since the fall, man is essentially evil and depraved, and that sins (plural) are the fruit of this depravity. The environment is good as God is not the author of evil. This presumes then that the depraved man needs an outside Savior, as his depravity is irreversible. This Biblical thought process is abhorrent to men. That is why it is so hard to reach men with the gospel. The man must admit his depravity and God's goodness. This he hates. So the Holy Spirit is given, as one of His duties, the job of working in a man to get him to admit his "sin" (singular) nature - the nature he inherited from Adam, which is responsible for all his evil ways.

If a man is worked on yb the Holy Spirit till he realizes and admits his depravity, he is then faced with despair. What will become of such evil men? That is when you come in with the gospel. What happens when a desperate man hears the gospel? He BELIEVES! And what happens when he believes? The wages of "sin" (singular) is death (Rom.6:23) and the solution to death is ETERNAL LIFE. The believeing man is given LIFE (Jn.3:14-16, 20:30-31). So the Holy Spirit's job is to reprove of sin BECAUSE men do not BELIEVE in Jesus and death is their portion.

That, I judge, is the meaning of John 18:8-9.

You have a right to believe that . But the bible does not say that ..A man needs to know what he has done with Jesus . The one that died for him . The goodness of God leads to a change of mind . A man should weep at the thought of rejecting the one that did what he did for him . This is what brings a man to his knees . The love of God .

 

[throughfaith]

Good question. Man's basic religion is Gnosticism. Gnosticism says that man is essentially good, but that his environment (the things around him) make him bad. The solution is a small group of "illumined ones" - or "Gnostics", who have special knowledge. The man had a bad childhood so he is forced, against his good nature, to buy a rifle and kill 20 school children. We put him in rehab for 5 years in a institute paid by those hardworking citizens who go to work and don't shoot people, and then let him loose. And of course, the evil was the gun and not the man. This essentially puts the blame on the Maker of the environment - God. It attributes man's depravity to God.

But the Bible says that since the fall, man is essentially evil and depraved, and that sins (plural) are the fruit of this depravity. The environment is good as God is not the author of evil. This presumes then that the depraved man needs an outside Savior, as his depravity is irreversible. This Biblical thought process is abhorrent to men. That is why it is so hard to reach men with the gospel. The man must admit his depravity and God's goodness. This he hates. So the Holy Spirit is given, as one of His duties, the job of working in a man to get him to admit his "sin" (singular) nature - the nature he inherited from Adam, which is responsible for all his evil ways.

If a man is worked on yb the Holy Spirit till he realizes and admits his depravity, he is then faced with despair. What will become of such evil men? That is when you come in with the gospel. What happens when a desperate man hears the gospel? He BELIEVES! And what happens when he believes? The wages of "sin" (singular) is death (Rom.6:23) and the solution to death is ETERNAL LIFE. The believeing man is given LIFE (Jn.3:14-16, 20:30-31). So the Holy Spirit's job is to reprove of sin BECAUSE men do not BELIEVE in Jesus and death is their portion.

That, I judge, is the meaning of John 18:8-9.

A man is brought to his knees when he realises what he has done with Jesus.

 

[presidente]

O.K. But in posting # 15 you said that, "Peter described prophesyin as 'spake as moved by the Holy Ghost". So Peter made a mistake. That is a bold claim.

Those are your words, not my claim at all. There is s difference between God opening one's mouth and giving one prophecy to speak. God gives men the ability to speak but that does not make everything we say prophecy. The donkeys mouth was opened. Where does it say she was prophesying?

 

[throughfaith]

Good question. Man's basic religion is Gnosticism. Gnosticism says that man is essentially good, but that his environment (the things around him) make him bad. The solution is a small group of "illumined ones" - or "Gnostics", who have special knowledge. The man had a bad childhood so he is forced, against his good nature, to buy a rifle and kill 20 school children. We put him in rehab for 5 years in a institute paid by those hardworking citizens who go to work and don't shoot people, and then let him loose. And of course, the evil was the gun and not the man. This essentially puts the blame on the Maker of the environment - God. It attributes man's depravity to God.

But the Bible says that since the fall, man is essentially evil and depraved, and that sins (plural) are the fruit of this depravity. The environment is good as God is not the author of evil. This presumes then that the depraved man needs an outside Savior, as his depravity is irreversible. This Biblical thought process is abhorrent to men. That is why it is so hard to reach men with the gospel. The man must admit his depravity and God's goodness. This he hates. So the Holy Spirit is given, as one of His duties, the job of working in a man to get him to admit his "sin" (singular) nature - the nature he inherited from Adam, which is responsible for all his evil ways.

If a man is worked on yb the Holy Spirit till he realizes and admits his depravity, he is then faced with despair. What will become of such evil men? That is when you come in with the gospel. What happens when a desperate man hears the gospel? He BELIEVES! And what happens when he believes? The wages of "sin" (singular) is death (Rom.6:23) and the solution to death is ETERNAL LIFE. The believeing man is given LIFE (Jn.3:14-16, 20:30-31). So the Holy Spirit's job is to reprove of sin BECAUSE men do not BELIEVE in Jesus and death is their portion.

That, I judge, is the meaning of John 18:8-9.

A person needs the conviction about Jesus . He needs to know that He paid for his sins . God has given assurance ( pistus) of this by raising from the dead . God is pleased to save those that believe. 1 cor 1.21 . Scarcely today some Christians believe the good news . How can they hear if Christians don't believe? how can they be saved if we don't tell someone the Gospel ? They can't.

 

[presidente]

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

If they'd believed and been reconciled their may not been convicted because they sin would have been forgiven including theft, bearing false witness, etc. It is through faith in Christ that we can receive forgiveness.

 

[throughfaith]

If they'd believed and been reconciled their may not been convicted because they sin would have been forgiven including theft, bearing false witness, etc. It is through faith in Christ that we can receive forgiveness.

I believe Jesus paid for all sins . Today we receive remission and redemption the moment we recieve Jesus .

 

[notuptome]

How does the way that I (allegedly) perceive what is taught from the Scripture shape the falsehoods that you invent and post, and claim are "constrained by the mind of Christ" and posted "For the cause of Christ"?

You need to own your behaviour, Roger.

Your pride is injured before you enter the conversation. I post no falsehoods against you. I own what the word of God has taught me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger