Lost Gospel of Evangelicalism

[Blade]

Well thats impossible for me to answer. Yes I have noticed when ever I was watching they were not. Yet I have not watched one every time they preach during a year. And we do know that GOD also tells them what to preach right?

sometimes its GOD talking to us. Maybe just maybe what you noticed is..about you not them. They don't answer to man. What I feel someone should be preaching...lol yeah.. thats of me not God.

 

[presidente]

The 'sin righteousness and judgment verse' reminds me of this verse about the preaching of Paul in Acts 24.

25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

 

[Corban]

You have a right to believe that . But the bible does not say that ..A man needs to know what he has done with Jesus . The one that died for him . The goodness of God leads to a change of mind . A man should weep at the thought of rejecting the one that did what he did for him . This is what brings a man to his knees . The love of God .

I can't imagine where you get that idea from. God loved Israel to the uttermost and above all Nations. What did it change? Israel, from the golden calf onward, resisted, refuted and refused God. Since Solomon's death they are a divided people. They have carried and nurtured their idols since Egypt. They have oppressed the weak and poor among them. The have been hounded and have lived in fear and under persecution for 2,700 years, as their Law demanded for their iniquities. They plotted and executed the most heinous crime against the Son of God. There can be no talk of what "the thought of rejecting God does". It never even crossed the mind of the most loved of Peoples.

And where was Peter's love that made him weep for his betrayal? It was regret that did it. When he is asked thrice if he loves the Lord he cannot say it. Jesus asked him, "do you love (agape - Gk.) me Peter?". And what can Peter muster as answer? "You know that I love (philadelphia - Gk.) you." In Galatians 2 Peter is rebuked by Paul. Why? Because he broke fellowship with Gentile Christians when he saw the Jews coming. Love? I think not.

 

[Corban]

A man is brought to his knees when he realises what he has done with Jesus.

Not so. A man is driven to his knees when he realizes that a terrible fate awaits him. I present you as proof, God's own people - the Jews. As they were lined up for the gas chambers did they give one thought of what they had done with Jesus? No. And the Nations? Do they fall to their knees concerning what they have done with the Name Jesus? No! He is hated, despised and His beautiful name Jesus is a profanity to them.

 

[Corban]

Those are your words, not my claim at all. There is s difference between God opening one's mouth and giving one prophecy to speak. God gives men the ability to speak but that does not make everything we say prophecy. The donkeys mouth was opened. Where does it say she was prophesying?

You said so. You quoted 2nd Peter 1:21 as the definition of prophesy. The donkey SPOKE as MOVED by the Holy Spirit. Here, there is no doubt what happened because it not only says that God gave him the ability, but a donkey otherwise cannot speak. Read the text and ask yourself if you have ever had an experience anywhere like the ass. Numbers 22:23-34.

23 "And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way.
24 But the angel of the LORD stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall being on this side, and a wall on that side.
25 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again.
26 And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where was no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left.
27 And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff.
28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.
30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.
31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:
33 And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive.
34 And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again."

What will it take to convince you that the Holy Spirit MOVED on the ass. THRICE the ass has a clear vision of the angel with the sword - a vision that Balaam did not have. And TWICE the ass speaks. And TWICE the ass speaks in Balaam's tongue. And the vision is confirmed for anon, Balaam sees the angel too.

And you say that the Holy Spirit did not MOVE upon the ass to SPEAK? What will it take to convince you brother?

 

[Corban]

A person needs the conviction about Jesus . He needs to know that He paid for his sins . God has given assurance ( pistus) of this by raising from the dead . God is pleased to save those that believe. 1 cor 1.21 . Scarcely today some Christians believe the good news . How can they hear if Christians don't believe? how can they be saved if we don't tell someone the Gospel ? They can't.

Yes. But this was already established by point # 2 of my posting # 4. But I am encouraged that we draw closer.

Let's reverse the matter. Show me a verse that says that men reprove other men of sin (singular). 2nd Timothy 4:2 uses the word, but that is addressed to those who already believe. Conviction and rebuke for sin is an inner matter and can only be achieved by God.

 

[presidente]

You said so. You quoted 2nd Peter 1:21 as the definition of prophesy. The donkey SPOKE as MOVED by the Holy Spirit. Here, there is no doubt what happened because it not only says that God gave him the ability, but a donkey otherwise cannot speak. Read the text and ask yourself if you have ever had an experience anywhere like the ass. Numbers 22:23-34.

I am talking about this with you because I consider it important to understand what 'prophesying' is. The one long chapter of the Bible that tells us what to in church instructs believers to 'let the prophets speak two or three.'

Look up the word 'prophesy' and variants like 'prophecy' and 'prophesying' in a concordance. What examples do you find of someone complaining about themselves being hit, or other things like that are called prophecy? Prophets typically spoke utterances in the first person for God, starting with such phrases as 'Thus saith the LORD.' Not all prophecies are in this form. But prophecies are messages from God, and we might say that the architypal prophecy is a quote from God in the first person. A number of the examples where 'prophesy' is used in the Old Testament happen to be predictions of the future, also.

I showed you the passage in Exodus where Yahweh told Moses that He was the one who made a man mute or able to speak.

Exodus 4:11
And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Since God enables us to speak, are we all prophesying all the time? God did not make Adolf Hitler a lifelong mute. Does that make his speeches into prophesying?

YHWH opened the mouth of a donkey to be able to speak
Numbers 22
28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

Yahweh gave the donkey the ability to speak. It does not say here that the Spirit of the Yahweh moved the donkey to speak a message from Yahweh. The donkey does not say, "Thus saith the LORD" and speak for God in the first person. There is nothing in the passage that says the donkey is prophesying.

God has given you the ability to speak. If someone were hitting you, and you didn't fight back, a possible reaction, you as a human, might have, is to ask, 'Why did you hit me?' That doesn't mean you are prophesying.

What will it take to convince you that the Holy Spirit MOVED on the ass.

The II Peter passage says 'spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost' or more literally 'were carried along by the Holy Ghost.' The passage does not say that the Spirit moved the donkey to speak certain words. The donkey was given the ability to speak-- it's mouth was open.

Another verse does exist where a mouth was opened. Zecharias was mute when he demanded a sign about John's birth. When he wrote 'His name is John' after the baby was born, his mouth was opened... meaning he wasn't mute anymore. But in Zecharias case, he was filled with the Spirit and prophesied after this. But the passage does not say this about the donkey when his mouth was opened.

THRICE the ass has a clear vision of the angel with the sword - a vision that Balaam did not have. And TWICE the ass speaks. And TWICE the ass speaks in Balaam's tongue. And the vision is confirmed for anon, Balaam sees the angel too.

The donkey did not tell Balaam about the angel, not according to what is recorded in the passage. The donkey saw the angel, but asked Balaam why he was hitting him and asked if she'd ever done anything like that before. Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes and he saw the angel.

And you say that the Holy Spirit did not MOVE upon the ass to SPEAK? What will it take to convince you brother?

If the Bible actually taught it, that would convince me. If this were a prophecy, in what way do you think Balaam were hitting the LORD?

 

[Corban]

I am talking about this with you because I consider it important to understand what 'prophesying' is. The one long chapter of the Bible that tells us what to in church instructs believers to 'let the prophets speak two or three.'

Look up the word 'prophesy' and variants like 'prophecy' and 'prophesying' in a concordance. What examples do you find of someone complaining about themselves being hit, or other things like that are called prophecy? Prophets typically spoke utterances in the first person for God, starting with such phrases as 'Thus saith the LORD.' Not all prophecies are in this form. But prophecies are messages from God, and we might say that the architypal prophecy is a quote from God in the first person. A number of the examples where 'prophesy' is used in the Old Testament happen to be predictions of the future, also.

I showed you the passage in Exodus where Yahweh told Moses that He was the one who made a man mute or able to speak.

Exodus 4:11
And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Since God enables us to speak, are we all prophesying all the time? God did not make Adolf Hitler a lifelong mute. Does that make his speeches into prophesying?

YHWH opened the mouth of a donkey to be able to speak
Numbers 22
28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

Yahweh gave the donkey the ability to speak. It does not say here that the Spirit of the Yahweh moved the donkey to speak a message from Yahweh. The donkey does not say, "Thus saith the LORD" and speak for God in the first person. There is nothing in the passage that says the donkey is prophesying.

God has given you the ability to speak. If someone were hitting you, and you didn't fight back, a possible reaction, you as a human, might have, is to ask, 'Why did you hit me?' That doesn't mean you are prophesying.



The II Peter passage says 'spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost' or more literally 'were carried along by the Holy Ghost.' The passage does not say that the Spirit moved the donkey to speak certain words. The donkey was given the ability to speak-- it's mouth was open.

Another verse does exist where a mouth was opened. Zecharias was mute when he demanded a sign about John's birth. When he wrote 'His name is John' after the baby was born, his mouth was opened... meaning he wasn't mute anymore. But in Zecharias case, he was filled with the Spirit and prophesied after this. But the passage does not say this about the donkey when his mouth was opened.



The donkey did not tell Balaam about the angel, not according to what is recorded in the passage. The donkey saw the angel, but asked Balaam why he was hitting him and asked if she'd ever done anything like that before. Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes and he saw the angel.



If the Bible actually taught it, that would convince me. If this were a prophecy, in what way do you think Balaam were hitting the LORD?

Let me make some observations.

• We are talking about this because you denied that 1st Corinthians 14:3 was the definition of prophesying. Instead, you proposed 2nd Peter 1:21.
• We are talking about this, because I applied "speaking exhortation and admonition" to the donkey. Although the donkey clearly did this to Balaam, you denied this as prophecy.
• We are still talking about this because I then took your proposal of 2nd Peter 1.21 and showed the donkey spoke by being moved by the Holy Spirit. Since you had already taken the position that the donkey was not prophesying, you had to deny your own selected definition of prophecy."
• The fact of the matter is that the donkey, a normally dumb animal, could neither speak, nor speak in Balaam's language, nor speak to Balaam about a vision he had seen unless it was MOVED by the Holy Spirit. It not only says that God intervened in the donkey's capabilities, but this miraculous event had all the evidence of God's intervention. This you deny.
• The fact of the matter is that 1st Corinthians 14:3 IS the definition of a prophet and prophecy, and 2nd Peter 1.21 is HOW it is accomplished. Both apply to the donkey.
• The phrase "thus saith the Lord" is NOT a prerequisite for prophecy.
• The phrase "thus saith the Lord" does not appear in the New Testament despite a huge amount of prophecy
• The phrase "thus saith the Holy Spirit" appears just ONCE in the New Testament despite much prophecy
• The Old Testament Hebrew for "prophet" comes from the root "nawbaw" which means to speak under inspiration
• The New Testament Greek for prophet is defined as, "the speaking forth of the mind and counsel of God" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.)
• Since the living and walk of the Believer should be by faith, the foretelling of the future is at an absolute minimum in the New Testament
• Prophecy is God's instant inspired speaking to direct a situation. This is what the donkey did

One must ask the serious question, why do you go to such lengths to deny that the donkey prophesied when God moved on dumb animal to see a vision and speak in a man's language to admonish him - all which define a prophet.

 

[Dino246]

Your pride is injured before you enter the conversation. I post no falsehoods against you. I own what the word of God has taught me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Your grasp on reality has slipped.

 

[throughfaith]

I can't imagine where you get that idea from. God loved Israel to the uttermost and above all Nations. What did it change? Israel, from the golden calf onward, resisted, refuted and refused God. Since Solomon's death they are a divided people. They have carried and nurtured their idols since Egypt. They have oppressed the weak and poor among them. The have been hounded and have lived in fear and under persecution for 2,700 years, as their Law demanded for their iniquities. They plotted and executed the most heinous crime against the Son of God. There can be no talk of what "the thought of rejecting God does". It never even crossed the mind of the most loved of Peoples.

And where was Peter's love that made him weep for his betrayal? It was regret that did it. When he is asked thrice if he loves the Lord he cannot say it. Jesus asked him, "do you love (agape - Gk.) me Peter?". And what can Peter muster as answer? "You know that I love (philadelphia - Gk.) you." In Galatians 2 Peter is rebuked by Paul. Why? Because he broke fellowship with Gentile Christians when he saw the Jews coming. Love? I think not.

Isn't it great to look back after the cross today? Thats the wonderful revelation of the reconciliation we share today. Peter scarcely believed the resurrection. What a Joy it is to share the Gospel that saves . Today we share 1cor 15 .1-4 . Peter needed that to unfold and then to understand the reconciliation and repentence granted to Gentiles . This is the mess we get into when we don't move on the timeliness given in the bible.

 

[throughfaith]

Yes. But this was already established by point # 2 of my posting # 4. But I am encouraged that we draw closer.

Let's reverse the matter. Show me a verse that says that men reprove other men of sin (singular). 2nd Timothy 4:2 uses the word, but that is addressed to those who already believe. Conviction and rebuke for sin is an inner matter and can only be achieved by God.

Please share these verses ?

 

[throughfaith]

I can't imagine where you get that idea from. God loved Israel to the uttermost and above all Nations. What did it change? Israel, from the golden calf onward, resisted, refuted and refused God. Since Solomon's death they are a divided people. They have carried and nurtured their idols since Egypt. They have oppressed the weak and poor among them. The have been hounded and have lived in fear and under persecution for 2,700 years, as their Law demanded for their iniquities. They plotted and executed the most heinous crime against the Son of God. There can be no talk of what "the thought of rejecting God does". It never even crossed the mind of the most loved of Peoples.

And where was Peter's love that made him weep for his betrayal? It was regret that did it. When he is asked thrice if he loves the Lord he cannot say it. Jesus asked him, "do you love (agape - Gk.) me Peter?". And what can Peter muster as answer? "You know that I love (philadelphia - Gk.) you." In Galatians 2 Peter is rebuked by Paul. Why? Because he broke fellowship with Gentile Christians when he saw the Jews coming. Love? I think not.

Peter needed another 10 years after Acts 2 to understand salvation to Gentiles. Today we preach with full understanding. using the examples you give are misplaced .

 

[throughfaith]

I can't imagine where you get that idea from. God loved Israel to the uttermost and above all Nations. What did it change? Israel, from the golden calf onward, resisted, refuted and refused God. Since Solomon's death they are a divided people. They have carried and nurtured their idols since Egypt. They have oppressed the weak and poor among them. The have been hounded and have lived in fear and under persecution for 2,700 years, as their Law demanded for their iniquities. They plotted and executed the most heinous crime against the Son of God. There can be no talk of what "the thought of rejecting God does". It never even crossed the mind of the most loved of Peoples.

And where was Peter's love that made him weep for his betrayal? It was regret that did it. When he is asked thrice if he loves the Lord he cannot say it. Jesus asked him, "do you love (agape - Gk.) me Peter?". And what can Peter muster as answer? "You know that I love (philadelphia - Gk.) you." In Galatians 2 Peter is rebuked by Paul. Why? Because he broke fellowship with Gentile Christians when he saw the Jews coming. Love? I think not.

Remember Jesus is the light that lighteth EVERYMAN ,that draws ALL MEN , the Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of not believing in him . Then we preach the gospel. Which is the power of God. The examples you give do not take any of this into account.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Prophets typically spoke utterances in the first person for God, starting with such phrases as 'Thus saith the LORD.'

And that is what defines prophecy. Prophecy is divine revelation given through men. Therefore the whole Bible may be deemed prophetic. It is both foretelling and forth-telling. Jesus called the entire Old Testament "the Law and the Prophets". Peter said (regarding himself and all the apostles) "We have a more sure word of prophecy".

 

[throughfaith]

The 'sin righteousness and judgment verse' reminds me of this verse about the preaching of Paul in Acts 24.

25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

Yes HE reasoned. Paul reasoned .

 

[Corban]

Peter needed another 10 years after Acts 2 to understand salvation to Gentiles. Today we preach with full understanding. using the examples you give are misplaced .

Your opinion is read and noted.

 

[Corban]

Remember Jesus is the light that lighteth EVERYMAN ,that draws ALL MEN , the Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of not believing in him . Then we preach the gospel. Which is the power of God. The examples you give do not take any of this into account.

As I just said, I'll pass. Thanks for the exchange.

 

[throughfaith]

As I just said, I'll pass. Thanks for the exchange.

Just bible .

 

[presidente]

Yes HE reasoned. Paul reasoned .

But it affected his hearer who trembled.

 

[notuptome]

But it affected his hearer who trembled.

If a person hears the word of God and does not react with fear and trembling can he really become saved?

The gospel is not a powder puff message from God. Gods love and His eternal goodness is revealed in the severity and eternal nature of His certain judgment on the soul that sinneth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger