The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

[echoChrist]

Again, those persecutions and tribulations mentioned above, were not the result of God's wrath! You need to stop confusing the two! The persecutions and tribulations that Paul is speaking of was the result of their faith in Christ, which come at the hands of men and the power darkness. Where in opposition, God's wrath will be coming directly from Him, not because of faith, but because of rejecting His Son and those who are willfully continuing to live according to the sinful nature. Understand then, that there is a big difference between the trials and persecutions that the Lord said we would suffer because of our faith vs. God's coming wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.

parable of the wheat and tares of the field (Matthew 13:30,39-40) 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares (wicked), and bind them in bundles to burn them🔥: but gather the wheat (children of the kingdom) 👑 into my barn. 39 The enemy that sowed them ( tares) is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. That clearly states we are both here righteous and wicked at the end of the world wicked are burnt up only the pure can stand at the brightness of his coming. My Lord is likened to a refiners fire. I just don’t think that can be refuted.

 

[echoChrist]

Sorry I lost you maybe we can pick this up again let me know what you think of parable.

 

[Ahwatukee]

parable of the wheat and tares of the field (Matthew 13:30,39-40) 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares (wicked), and bind them in bundles to burn them🔥: but gather the wheat (children of the kingdom) 👑 into my barn. 39 The enemy that sowed them ( tares) is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. That clearly states we are both here righteous and wicked at the end of the world wicked are burnt up only the pure can stand at the brightness of his coming. My Lord is likened to a refiners fire. I just don’t think that can be refuted.

Hello again!

The scripture that you posted above is regarding when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

Tares = Those wicked who make it alive through the time of God's wrath, who are gathered by the angels to be judged. These are also the "one taken" group of Matthew 24:37-41

Wheat = The saints who make it alive through the wrath of God, who are will enter into the millennial kingdom, along with the remnant of Israel, to repopulate the earth.

The gathering of the church = The Lord descends from heaven to the atmosphere and the dead in Christ from the on-set of the church to the resurrection, rise immortal and glorified. Immediately after that, the those in Christ who are still alive are changed immortal and glorified and caught up with those who will have just resurrected, with the whole group meeting the Lord in the air. Then according to Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us so that we may be where He is.

At the end of the age, the angels will be gathering both the Tares/wicked and the wheat/righteous who will still be alive in their mortal bodies.

At the gathering of the church the dead will rise immortal and glorified. Then those still alive will be changed immortal and glorified.

The event of the gathering of the church is a different kind of gathering which does not nullify the gathering of the wicked and the righteous at the end of the age. I would also add that, every time Jesus mentions an event, whether the gathering of the church or the gathering at the end of the age, He is not going to go back over all of the details regarding these events. That is for us who are reading His word to do, to gather all the information in order to come to a right conclusion. I'll give you an example:

Matthew 24:31 - And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Matthew 13:30 - Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

Now, both scripture above are talking about the same event, where the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. If you were to only read Matthew 24:31, it just mentions that the angels go out to gather the elect from all over the earth, but it says nothing about the tares/wicked being gathered first. Therefore, unless you read the parable in Matthew 13:30, you wouldn't know that the wicked are gathered first. This is why it is important to address all of the related scriptures in order to come to a right interpretative conclusion.

Another example would be of when the church returns to the earth with the Lord to end the age. Matthew 24:30-31 mentions that the Lord sends out His angels to gather the elect. Where Revelation 19:14 mentions only the bride/church following Him out of heaven riding on white horses. It is the same with Jude quoting Enoch's prophesy that the Lord will cometh with ten thousands of his saints, but no mention of angels.

So, it is very important to read all related scriptures in order to get a full understanding of any given event.

Wheat and the tares = living people who are gathered by the angels at the end of the age.

The gathering of the church = all who will have died up to the resurrection will rise immortal and glorified, with the living being changed immortal and glorified, all being caught up to meet the Lord.

Just fyi, angels do not gather the church at the resurrection, but they rise and are changed immortal and glorified, having their own power. The Lord's voice will sound like a trumpet saying "come up here" and the dead and living in Christ will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. In Matt.13:30 and 24:31, the angels will be gathering living people still in their immortal bodies, some for judgment and others to enter into the millennial kingdom.

 

[echoChrist]

Hello again!

The scripture that you posted above is regarding when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

Tares = Those wicked who make it alive through the time of God's wrath, who are gathered by the angels to be judged. These are also the "one taken" group of Matthew 24:37-41

Wheat = The saints who make it alive through the wrath of God, who are will enter into the millennial kingdom, along with the remnant of Israel, to repopulate the earth.

The gathering of the church = The Lord descends from heaven to the atmosphere and the dead in Christ from the on-set of the church to the resurrection, rise immortal and glorified. Immediately after that, the those in Christ who are still alive are changed immortal and glorified and caught up with those who will have just resurrected, with the whole group meeting the Lord in the air. Then according to Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us so that we may be where He is.

At the end of the age, the angels will be gathering both the Tares/wicked and the wheat/righteous who will still be alive in their mortal bodies.

At the gathering of the church the dead will rise immortal and glorified. Then those still alive will be changed immortal and glorified.

The event of the gathering of the church is a different kind of gathering which does not nullify the gathering of the wicked and the righteous at the end of the age. I would also add that, every time Jesus mentions an event, whether the gathering of the church or the gathering at the end of the age, He is not going to go back over all of the details regarding these events. That is for us who are reading His word to do, to gather all the information in order to come to a right conclusion. I'll give you an example:

Matthew 24:31 - And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Matthew 13:30 - Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

Now, both scripture above are talking about the same event, where the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. If you were to only read Matthew 24:31, it just mentions that the angels go out to gather the elect from all over the earth, but it says nothing about the tares/wicked being gathered first. Therefore, unless you read the parable in Matthew 13:30, you wouldn't know that the wicked are gathered first. This is why it is important to address all of the related scriptures in order to come to a right interpretative conclusion.

Another example would be of when the church returns to the earth with the Lord to end the age. Matthew 24:30-31 mentions that the Lord sends out His angels to gather the elect. Where Revelation 19:14 mentions only the bride/church following Him out of heaven riding on white horses. It is the same with Jude quoting Enoch's prophesy that the Lord will cometh with ten thousands of his saints, but no mention of angels.

So, it is very important to read all related scriptures in order to get a full understanding of any given event.

Wheat and the tares = living people who are gathered by the angels at the end of the age.

The gathering of the church = all who will have died up to the resurrection will rise immortal and glorified, with the living being changed immortal and glorified, all being caught up to meet the Lord.

Just fyi, angels do not gather the church at the resurrection, but they rise and are changed immortal and glorified, having their own power. The Lord's voice will sound like a trumpet saying "come up here" and the dead and living in Christ will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. In Matt.13:30 and 24:31, the angels will be gathering living people still in their immortal bodies, some for judgment and others to enter into the millennial kingdom.

I’ll get back to you in minute this is a lot to digest and study.

 

[echoChrist]

Hello again!

The scripture that you posted above is regarding when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

Tares = Those wicked who make it alive through the time of God's wrath, who are gathered by the angels to be judged. These are also the "one taken" group of Matthew 24:37-41

Wheat = The saints who make it alive through the wrath of God, who are will enter into the millennial kingdom, along with the remnant of Israel, to repopulate the earth.

The gathering of the church = The Lord descends from heaven to the atmosphere and the dead in Christ from the on-set of the church to the resurrection, rise immortal and glorified. Immediately after that, the those in Christ who are still alive are changed immortal and glorified and caught up with those who will have just resurrected, with the whole group meeting the Lord in the air. Then according to Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us so that we may be where He is.

At the end of the age, the angels will be gathering both the Tares/wicked and the wheat/righteous who will still be alive in their mortal bodies.

At the gathering of the church the dead will rise immortal and glorified. Then those still alive will be changed immortal and glorified.

The event of the gathering of the church is a different kind of gathering which does not nullify the gathering of the wicked and the righteous at the end of the age. I would also add that, every time Jesus mentions an event, whether the gathering of the church or the gathering at the end of the age, He is not going to go back over all of the details regarding these events. That is for us who are reading His word to do, to gather all the information in order to come to a right conclusion. I'll give you an example:

Matthew 24:31 - And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Matthew 13:30 - Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

Now, both scripture above are talking about the same event, where the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. If you were to only read Matthew 24:31, it just mentions that the angels go out to gather the elect from all over the earth, but it says nothing about the tares/wicked being gathered first. Therefore, unless you read the parable in Matthew 13:30, you wouldn't know that the wicked are gathered first. This is why it is important to address all of the related scriptures in order to come to a right interpretative conclusion.

Another example would be of when the church returns to the earth with the Lord to end the age. Matthew 24:30-31 mentions that the Lord sends out His angels to gather the elect. Where Revelation 19:14 mentions only the bride/church following Him out of heaven riding on white horses. It is the same with Jude quoting Enoch's prophesy that the Lord will cometh with ten thousands of his saints, but no mention of angels.

So, it is very important to read all related scriptures in order to get a full understanding of any given event.

Wheat and the tares = living people who are gathered by the angels at the end of the age.

The gathering of the church = all who will have died up to the resurrection will rise immortal and glorified, with the living being changed immortal and glorified, all being caught up to meet the Lord.

Just fyi, angels do not gather the church at the resurrection, but they rise and are changed immortal and glorified, having their own power. The Lord's voice will sound like a trumpet saying "come up here" and the dead and living in Christ will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. In Matt.13:30 and 24:31, the angels will be gathering living people still in their immortal bodies, some for judgment and others to enter into the millennial kingdom.

Alright you are the first person I have talked to that has made any sense on this event now I have to do some more studying the only thing I'm conflicted with is the timing of everything I know what your thinking man this guy is stubborn but I like to get all the facts before I make up my mind. Now this

Hello again!

The scripture that you posted above is regarding when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

Tares = Those wicked who make it alive through the time of God's wrath, who are gathered by the angels to be judged. These are also the "one taken" group of Matthew 24:37-41

Wheat = The saints who make it alive through the wrath of God, who are will enter into the millennial kingdom, along with the remnant of Israel, to repopulate the earth.

The gathering of the church = The Lord descends from heaven to the atmosphere and the dead in Christ from the on-set of the church to the resurrection, rise immortal and glorified. Immediately after that, the those in Christ who are still alive are changed immortal and glorified and caught up with those who will have just resurrected, with the whole group meeting the Lord in the air. Then according to Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us so that we may be where He is.

At the end of the age, the angels will be gathering both the Tares/wicked and the wheat/righteous who will still be alive in their mortal bodies.

At the gathering of the church the dead will rise immortal and glorified. Then those still alive will be changed immortal and glorified.

The event of the gathering of the church is a different kind of gathering which does not nullify the gathering of the wicked and the righteous at the end of the age. I would also add that, every time Jesus mentions an event, whether the gathering of the church or the gathering at the end of the age, He is not going to go back over all of the details regarding these events. That is for us who are reading His word to do, to gather all the information in order to come to a right conclusion. I'll give you an example:

Matthew 24:31 - And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Matthew 13:30 - Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ ”

Now, both scripture above are talking about the same event, where the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. If you were to only read Matthew 24:31, it just mentions that the angels go out to gather the elect from all over the earth, but it says nothing about the tares/wicked being gathered first. Therefore, unless you read the parable in Matthew 13:30, you wouldn't know that the wicked are gathered first. This is why it is important to address all of the related scriptures in order to come to a right interpretative conclusion.

Another example would be of when the church returns to the earth with the Lord to end the age. Matthew 24:30-31 mentions that the Lord sends out His angels to gather the elect. Where Revelation 19:14 mentions only the bride/church following Him out of heaven riding on white horses. It is the same with Jude quoting Enoch's prophesy that the Lord will cometh with ten thousands of his saints, but no mention of angels.

So, it is very important to read all related scriptures in order to get a full understanding of any given event.

Wheat and the tares = living people who are gathered by the angels at the end of the age.

The gathering of the church = all who will have died up to the resurrection will rise immortal and glorified, with the living being changed immortal and glorified, all being caught up to meet the Lord.

Just fyi, angels do not gather the church at the resurrection, but they rise and are changed immortal and glorified, having their own power. The Lord's voice will sound like a trumpet saying "come up here" and the dead and living in Christ will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. In Matt.13:30 and 24:31, the angels will be gathering living people still in their immortal bodies, some for judgment and others to enter into the millennial kingdom.

I'm just wanted to say I'm not blowing you off I'm just buried in prophecy right now I will get back with you later on this somethings missing.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The long prophesied Day of the Lord is quickly coming! But because we (the church) are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness, i.e. that day will not take us by surprise because we will be removed before that time of darkness begins.

Agreed!





[Agree also that the "WHEAT and TARES" (Matt13) are who are "still-living" at the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth Rev19 (NOT at "our Rapture," which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body," both "the DEAD IN Christ" [who shall "rise first"] AND the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" [both will be "caught up TOGETHER" at] that point in the chronology/event/Rapture)]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Alright you are the first person I have talked to that has made any sense on this event now I have to do some more studying the only thing I'm conflicted with is the timing of everything I know what your thinking man this guy is stubborn but I like to get all the facts before I make up my mind. Now this

I'm just wanted to say I'm not blowing you off I'm just buried in prophecy right now I will get back with you later on this somethings missing.

Hello echoChrist!

No problem! It is good that you are checking this information out. You're being like the bereans, who searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was the truth. If there was a main teaching regarding the timing of when the Lord was going to gather His church, it wouldn't be regarding any specific scripture, but the understanding that God's wrath has already been satisfied through Christ and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in Him.

"Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted.
But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed."

So the punishment that Christ suffered that brings us peace with God was accomplished through Christ. Scripture states that we have been reconciled to God, which means that those who believe have been brought back from enmity to friendship with God.

It is important to include this principle in regards to when and why the Lord is going to gather His church prior to God's coming wrath. The other thing that people don't take into consideration is that what is coming is God's wrath. The apologetic that they attempt to use is that they claim that it is man's or Satan's wrath. However, scripture makes clear that this entire period will be God's wrath, the Day of the Lord. They also don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. This is what the book of Revelation is all about, God's wrath. This is stated in the very first verse:

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants what things must take place in quickness."

Those things that must take place is listed from Revelation chapters 6 through 18 regarding the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and all related information. It is a detailed account of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord. In fact, the scriptures regarding 'The Day of the Lord' would be a good thing to include in your studies. Below is just one example:

"I will completely sweep away everything from the face of the earth, declares the LORD.

“I will sweep away man and beast; I will sweep away the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea,

and the idols with their wicked worshipers. I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth,”

All of the above will be accomplished through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which make up the coming wrath of God. Since believers have been reconciled to God, understanding the severity of God's coming wrath will help you in regards as to why the church cannot be on the earth during this time of wrath.

There are only two places within the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments that give a percentage of the fatalities which is the fourth seal and the sixth trumpet (a fourth and a third, respectively), which would be over half the earths population within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor from the bowl judgments.

Why am I mentioning these things? Because they are important in regards to understanding why the church cannot be on the earth during those events of wrath and why. People are looking for the one scripture that tells them when the church is gathered. However, the answer is found by understanding these issues that I have listed.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

In Matt.13:30 and 24:31, the angels will be gathering living people still in their immortal bodies, some for judgment and others to enter into the millennial kingdom.

In this sentence, didn't you mean to say, "living people still in their mortal bodies" ?


[just clarifying for the sake of those seeking to study this particular aspect of the Subject]

 

[Ahwatukee]

In this sentence, didn't you mean to say, "living people still in their mortal bodies" ?


[just clarifying for the sake of those seeking to study this particular aspect of the Subject]

Yes! Good catch. It should read "the angels will be gathering living people still in their mortal bodies." It was just a typo from going back and forth between mortal and immortal. sorry about that confusion.

=======================================================================================
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
=======================================================================================

Forgive me for repeating this information, for I know that you know all of these things. The above is regarding the gathering of the church, where both the dead and the living in Christ will receive immortal and glorified bodies. In contrast, the gathering that will take place at the end of the age by the angels, will be a gathering of both wicked and righteous who will have made it through the entire tribulation period, alive, which is mentioned in Matt.13:37-43 and Matt.24:31. And as I mentioned in a previous post, angels do not gather the dead and living who are changed and caught up, but will ascend up under their own power which they will receive when they become immortal and glorified. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. The Lord with a voice like a trumpet will say, "come up here" and the dead will rise and the living will be changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes! Good catch. It should read "the angels will be gathering living people still in their mortal bodies." It was just a typo from going back and forth between mortal and immortal. sorry about that confusion.

I figured that's what happened (I do that a lot too! ). I just wanted to be sure the readers (esp. those seeking to "study" this Subject) grasped that it was an inadvertent "typo" (so as to not become further confused when reading it that way--easy to do!!)

 

[Ahwatukee]

I figured that's what happened (I do that a lot too! ). I just wanted to be sure the readers (esp. those seeking to "study" this Subject) grasped that it was an inadvertent "typo" (so as to not become further confused when reading it that way--easy to do!!)

Much thanks to you! I always try to catch those myself. And you are correct, that could be confusing to those who are studying this.

 

[BenjaminN]

 

[Absolutely]

postrib antequated talking points out of the workbook.

You do not need all that bible verse twisting.

cut it to the main issue.
IS THE RAPTURE DEPICTED IN 1 THES 4 THE SAME AS THE SECOND COMING IN REV 19??????

Are the dead IN CHRIST raised FIRST ????????

Postrib rapture COMPLETELY FAILS THAT CRITERIA.
IT IS 100% IMPOSSIBLE
......but postribs ignore the verses challenging THEIR OWN "FOUNDATION"

postrib rapture is destroyed BY MY VERSES.

stick to that. All those postrib talking points are a bible verse reframe.

 

[Absolutely]

parable of the wheat and tares of the field (Matthew 13:30,39-40) 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares (wicked), and bind them in bundles to burn them🔥: but gather the wheat (children of the kingdom) 👑 into my barn. 39 The enemy that sowed them ( tares) is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. That clearly states we are both here righteous and wicked at the end of the world wicked are burnt up only the pure can stand at the brightness of his coming. My Lord is likened to a refiners fire. I just don’t think that can be refuted.

The only time people are thrown into fire is after the millineum.
Satan is thrown in and so are the demons and those wicked ones.

why do you think satan is losed and a final battle happens after the mil.?

it even says "end of the world" and points DIRECTLY to "burned in fire" IOW GWTJ

 

[Absolutely]

Alright you are the first person I have talked to that has made any sense on this event now I have to do some more studying the only thing I'm conflicted with is the timing of everything I know what your thinking man this guy is stubborn but I like to get all the facts before I make up my mind. Now this

I'm just wanted to say I'm not blowing you off I'm just buried in prophecy right now I will get back with you later on this somethings missing.

keep it simple

God made it extremely simple.

once you hit an impossibility, you better dig at that point.

the problem you are having is your "anti pretrib" leaning prevents you from test fitting verses. (you want postrib disproved or accepted,which makes your postrib rapture prism remain where you hold it [which is over the bible])

that prevents you from "test fitting " the pretrib rapture verses.

 

[echoChrist]

keep it simple

God made it extremely simple.

once you hit an impossibility, you better dig at that point.

the problem you are having is your "anti pretrib" leaning prevents you from test fitting verses. (you want postrib disproved or accepted,which makes your postrib rapture prism remain where you hold it [which is over the bible])

that prevents you from "test fitting " the pretrib rapture verses.

Give me one verse that says we are raptured before the wicked one is revealed. And I will accept your view I don't want my view proved I want the truth period.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Give me one verse that says we are raptured before the wicked one is revealed. And I will accept your view I don't want my view proved I want the truth period.

BESIDES the "24 elders" saying "hast redeemed US... out of every..." (UP IN Heaven), BEFORE the FIRST SEAL [/SEALS] is/are opened (equivalent to "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse), see the following Posts I recently made over in another thread (on the Subject of your specific question here ^ ):

[about 7-8 Posts of mine on Page 9 of a different thread]

(909) If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist? - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
LOOKS LIKE you may have to SCROLL UP to the TOP OF THE PAGE to see all 7-8 of my Posts there

 

[echoChrist]

The only time people are thrown into fire is after the millineum.
Satan is thrown in and so are the demons and those wicked ones.

why do you think satan is losed and a final battle happens after the mil.?

it even says "end of the world" and points DIRECTLY to "burned in fire" IOW GWTJ

Arent we already separated from wicked before the end of millennial reign. Your

BESIDES the "24 elders" saying "hast redeemed US... out of every..." (UP IN Heaven), BEFORE the FIRST SEAL [/SEALS] is/are opened (equivalent to "the beginning of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse), see the following Posts I recently made over in another thread (on the Subject of your specific question here ^ ):

[about 7-8 Posts of mine on Page 9 of a different thread]

(909) If the Rapture is true, just who are the saints beheaded by the Antichrist? - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
LOOKS LIKE you may have to SCROLL UP to the TOP OF THE PAGE to see all 7-8 of my Posts there

I said biblical text not you pasting things together.

 

[Absolutely]

Give me one verse that says we are raptured before the wicked one is revealed. And I will accept your view I don't want my view proved I want the truth period.

Like i already told you.
The CRUX of the debate is "is the rapture the SAME as the 2nd coming".

Do you realize that is the entirety of the debate??????

you NEED it to be the same.

if it is not ,then your ENTIRE DEAL falls apart.

I already showed you your prism.
your latest reply REVEALS IT.
IOW ,your entire plan is this; "show me where Jesus said he wore/didn't wear a white robe, prove it, then I will believe it."

we know he did
we do not have a verse to help you not dig, research and hunger for the truth.

Even with help,you refuse to get to the heart of the matter.

 

[Absolutely]

Arent we already separated from wicked before the end of millennial reign. Your

Satan is losed at the end of the mil

a rebellion results.

a final battle.

people are involved. The mil kingdom has good and bad in it,plus the REST OF THE DEAD ARE RAISED and judged.