Some things about the law that need explaining.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#421
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#421
Guojing said:
The way I understand your post, you believe in either/or/and both points:
  1. Universalism: Even though Israel the nation rejected Christ and stoned Stephen in Acts 7, somehow the New Covenant is still "given" to them, without them giving their consent and receiving it.
  2. The Body of Christ has accepted the New Covenant on behalf of Israel. Hence your view of "no more Israel only, Jews, gentiles, women, men, but children of God and those who were not His children."
Click to expand...
To number one, no. I believe we do not know or understand the relationship God has with Israel, and that it is none of our concern, it is between Christ and the Jews. To number two, I believe the Christian church has accepted Christ, and Israel had no part in that acceptance. And yes, I believe the world is divided between Christians who have accepted Christ and non Christians who live without the Lord and Christ being part of their life..
 
GandalfTheWhite

GandalfTheWhite

Senior Member
#422
Jan 25, 2015
9,225
3,204
113
#422
Blik said:
To number one, no. I believe we do not know or understand the relationship God has with Israel, and that it is none of our concern, it is between Christ and the Jews. To number two, I believe the Christian church has accepted Christ, and Israel had no part in that acceptance. And yes, I believe the world is divided between Christians who have accepted Christ and non Christians who live without the Lord and Christ being part of their life..
Click to expand...
What made Israel, Israel in the OT? Was it there birth right from being born out of the 12 tribes? The Bible teach us that not all of Israel were born of Jacob's children. There were other nations being part of Israel. So what make anybody Israel? Covenant. The moment we enter covenant with Abba Father we become part of the spiritual Israel.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#423
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#423
GandalfTheWhite said:
What made Israel, Israel in the OT? Was it there birth right from being born out of the 12 tribes? The Bible teach us that not all of Israel were born of Jacob's children. There were other nations being part of Israel. So what make anybody Israel? Covenant. The moment we enter covenant with Abba Father we become part of the spiritual Israel.
Click to expand...
So are you thinking in terms of my point 2, that The Body of Christ has accepted the New Covenant on behalf of Israel?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#428
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#428
Guojing said:
Different people might have different definitions of what the "Bride of Christ" refers to.
Click to expand...
The Body, the Bride, and the Building of Christ are all the same entity -- the Church.
 
GandalfTheWhite

GandalfTheWhite

Senior Member
#430
Jan 25, 2015
9,225
3,204
113
#430
Guojing said:
So now, God no longer has any plans for the country called Israel, that we see on the world map?
Click to expand...
According to prophecy we know that Israel (the country) and the area surrounding Israel will have a big part to play.
 
GandalfTheWhite

GandalfTheWhite

Senior Member
#431
Jan 25, 2015
9,225
3,204
113
#431
Guojing said:
What about Israel, the nation?
Click to expand...
Israel as a nation (piece of land) consist of many nations today. There are Arabs and Jews and many more ethnic tribes living there. They are not all God's nation Israel.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#432
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#432
GandalfTheWhite said:
According to prophecy we know that Israel (the country) and the area surrounding Israel will have a big part to play.
Click to expand...
Do you think one of the "big part" includes the cutting of the New Covenant with them, as in Hebrews 8:8?

And when it happened, do they also become "spiritual Israel"?
 
GandalfTheWhite

GandalfTheWhite

Senior Member
#433
Jan 25, 2015
9,225
3,204
113
#433
Guojing said:
Do you think one of the "big part" includes the cutting of the New Covenant with them, as in Hebrews 8:8?

And when it happened, do they also become "spiritual Israel"?
Click to expand...
So you think everybody in Israel is "the nation Israel" in the Bible? :unsure:
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#435
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#435
GandalfTheWhite said:
What made Israel, Israel in the OT? Was it there birth right from being born out of the 12 tribes? The Bible teach us that not all of Israel were born of Jacob's children. There were other nations being part of Israel. So what make anybody Israel? Covenant. The moment we enter covenant with Abba Father we become part of the spiritual Israel.
Click to expand...
In the old testament, all the nations, every one, did not believe the one true God was their God. Christ changed that. Paul changed that. In the old testament, to say gentile, was the same as saying heathen. In the new testament a new race was born, those who were adopted into Israel. We no longer say that all gentiles are heathen. When you go on about Israel and gentile, it simply does not apply any longer.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#436
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#436
GandalfTheWhite said:
So you think everybody in Israel is "the nation Israel" in the Bible? :unsure:
Click to expand...
I think that the Lord has a special blessing for ethnic Israel, a blessing of thanks for being the caretakers of the word when all the nations had forgotten the word. They are still given free will to choose Christ or reject Him, and I think I do not understand the grace of God that nation has always had. I think that is between God and the Jews, I have no part in it except I am asked not to judge them.

Christ made a change in what the words Israel and gentile mean. Paul was made the apostle to the gentiles.
 
GandalfTheWhite

GandalfTheWhite

Senior Member
#437
Jan 25, 2015
9,225
3,204
113
#437
Blik said:
I think that the Lord has a special blessing for ethnic Israel, a blessing of thanks for being the caretakers of the word when all the nations had forgotten the word. They are still given free will to choose Christ or reject Him, and I think I do not understand the grace of God that nation has always had. I think that is between God and the Jews, I have no part in it except I am asked not to judge them.

Christ made a change in what the words Israel and gentile mean. Paul was made the apostle to the gentiles.
Click to expand...
It is because they entered covenant with Him (I think :) ).

Christ did not make a change, when Jacob blessed Ephraim he said to him he will be the father of many nations (the fulness of the nations). Ephraim was born of Israel and he was the father of melo ha goyim. So through Ephraim we become part of the fulness of the nations in Israel.

In John 21 the disciples caught 153 big fishes. The only phrase in the Bible adding up to 153 is melo ha goyim. Jesus said to them you will be fishers of men.

It was always God's plan to give everybody a chance to come to him. Even in the OT the other nations could become part of Israel and we can see that when Israel left Egypt.
 
Corban

Corban

Banned
#438
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
#438
Blik said:
I agree, except that the law simply outlines sin for us, and what it requires is the saving grace of the Lord. Christ brought the new covenant to all of us,. It was originally given to Israel, but through Christ every person is given grace of the new covenant.

The church has many purposes, including learning all about God. Learning God's law is a part of learning about God. I see no sense in your statement "the Church has no part of the Law". Being under the law is to have the false idea that you can use the law to be righteous. It is a false idea, false for all people at all times, the "Jews" and "gentile" doesn't apply. I agree with "through Christ every person is given grace".
Click to expand...
The Law was given to Israel only. Its approximately 620 ordinances form the terms of a Contract with God. Its purpose was to regulate a people who would have God dwell in their midst. It regulates;
  1. The morality of the People God would dwell with
  2. How the surrounding Nations would perceive God to be
  3. The service to God in the Tabernacle/Temple
  4. The bodily cleanness of the People who would get close to God
  5. The people's dealing with the Land they lived on and in
God chose to dwell WITH Israel ONLY. His House and His Name are NOWHERE ELSE. The Covenant of Law is made with Israel ALONE. You can do what you want, complain as much as you like, copy as much as you like, but God ignores you. He has a Contract with whom He chooses and those He has not chosen HAVE NO DEALINGS WITH GOD IN THIS CONTRACT. All we can glean from this Law is we can learn of the mind of God, and we can be enlightened by the Types in the Law.

But I have very good news for you. God, seeing that men could not keep the Law, sent One Man Who did keep the Law. And God takes this fulfillment by One Man, and IMPUTES the TOTALITY of the fulfillment of the Law to ANYBODY who believes in this Person. The Law, as a means to righteousness is NOT NEEDED by anybody who believes in Jesus. But now I have some bad news for you. If you think that you can establish a better righteousness than was established by Jesus Christ, you do a double dishonor to God. You;
  1. Admit that Jesus Christ did not make the grade, and that you, a sinful, depraved, fallen human, can
  2. Accuse God of approving a lower standard than you can achieve, and so trash His own appreciation of what Jesus did
Next, as if that is not enough stupidity, the person who turns to Law, and who is not a flesh descendant of Jacob, makes claim to a DEAL that he/he was never part of. No judge, in heaven or on earth, will even hear your matter, it is so laughable. But there is no laughter in Paul's words in Galatians when he wishes that anybody who teaches this "be cut off" (Gal.5:12), and that those who hear this folly and do it, "have made Christ of none effect" and "have fallen from grace" (Gal.5:4). Just a strong as this is, Paul is not finished. He calls men who teach Law to Christians as "dogs of concision".

The Christian is privileged beyond words. God does not deign to dwell WITH him like he did with Israel. He humbles Himself to dwell IN the Christian. But the Christian still has a corrupt body. To overcome this, the Law is INADEQUATE! So God does three things;
  1. He reckons the Christian to be IN Christ and so to have died with Christ (Rom.6:1-5). The corrupt flesh is ended in His sight
  2. He reckons the LIFE of Christ to be a Garment and clothes the Christian "who has put on Christ" (Rom.13:14; Gal.3:27) so his corrupt flesh is hid
  3. He washes the Believer with Christ's blood and the Church with Christ as the Water of the Word (Eph.5:26; Rev.1:5)
Now, it is at once clear that the Law of Moses, though it be given by God, though it be good, though it be unto life if kept, and though it be spiritual, IS WEAK BECAUSE OF MAN'S FLESH and cannot, EVER, replace Christ as the means to ritual cleanness and positional sanctification to have the most Holy God dwelling IN a man. And lastly, if a Christian decides to dabble just a bit in the Law, he/she immediately becomes accountable for the WHOLE LAW (Gal.3:10, 5:3). And if so, you are under a curse.
 
Corban

Corban

Banned
#440
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
#440
GandalfTheWhite said:
The law is inadequate... ? Really?

Jesus used this inadequate law to set you free by becoming the living sacrifice :)
Click to expand...
You err twice.
  1. First I did not say that Law is inadequate. I said that the Law was inadequate for cleansing a corrupted body for God to dwell IN it
  2. Second, the Law used by Christ is not used to set me free. The Law of His LIFE did (Rom.8:2)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.