Forgiveness: conditional or unconditional?

[Magenta]

Is it right then that we point out the sin that has been committed?

Yes, of course And, it is Biblical to do so.

Sometimes people have various reasons for why they sin and we don't know their inner thoughts or justifications. I just wonder your thoughts on the rebuking part of this discussion. I agree with what you have said, but I wonder if it helps or can further hurt someone to even gently call them out on their sin.

If you do not tell them, how will they become aware of their offense? And in so doing (informing them), you open a line of dialogue that gives them a chance to tell their side of it, so then you find out their thoughts and justifications, if they are honest about why they have done whatever it was. You may not get far with dishonest people, though. Their denial will not allow for it. Nor will their pride.

 

[posthuman]

Is it right then that we point out the sin that has been committed? Is it wrong if we do not? Sometimes people have various reasons for why they sin and we don't know their inner thoughts or justifications. I just wonder your thoughts on the rebuking part of this discussion. I agree with what you have said, but I wonder if it helps or can further hurt someone to even gently call them out on their sin.

i would think that in allowing a person to go on in their sin, thinking it is not sin, there is a greater threat of harm to them by reason of the wages of their sin than whatever harm their conscience may suffer from gently admonishing them against it.

it's widely believed that Adam was standing right next to his wife listening to Satan deceive her. if that was the case ((i do not believe it was)) then would Adam, who wasn't deceived, have been right to keep quiet and allow his wife to sin and die, in order to spare her feelings? or would Adam himself have been in sin for watching it happen, knowing that it was wrong, knowing the Serpent was lying, and saying nothing?

 

[posthuman]

If you do not tell them, how will they become aware of their offense? And in so doing (informing them), you open a line of dialogue that gives them a chance to tell their side of it, so then you find out their thoughts and justifications, if they are honest about why they have done whatever it was.

we may temporarily lose a friend by pointing out that they're doing wrong. but if they come to understand the truth, we've deepened the friendship by showing them we care enough to try to hold them back from harm

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

A lot of you guys are quoting scripture ignoring the word "brother", brothers and sisters are fellow believers, we deal with our brothers and sisters differently than we do the unbelievers. We have no kindred with the world, we are resident aliens, refugees, defectors, and even in some parts of this world exiles waiting to return home. We deal with the citizens of this world differently than we do fellow sojourners. Our fellows know what it means and the necessity of repentance, they also know the harm they do when they do evil.
Also don't confuse repentance with an apology. Repentance is a change of heart not an apology. Some may never apologize, they may not be able to for any number of reasons. So take the position of forgiveness. Because unforgiveness hardens our hearts and damages our minds and hinders our walk with God, and can even destroy it. So forgive and move on. What ever move on looks like. If that means distance from a toxic person or if it means remaining friends with a person who acted rashly. We don't require apologies we just want to see repentance, not for ourselves, but for them. Because of their go unrepentant may end up in hell, or for a fellow believer it could seriously damage their walk with God. Let's not be selfish about this stuff because it's not about us. I forgive all and seek no apologies only that they repent and be saved or walk in the good graces of the Lord. Who am I but one who has sinned, and have done harm to others and so are each and every one of you. Repent yourselves to God. It's pride that demands a direct apology from someone, and if anyone comes to you saying you harmed me in this way, just repent and give an apology, it's not about you. It's not about me it's about Jesus and is pointing to Jesus in every way. Have a soft compassionate heart not a hard unforgiving one. People error people are flawed, and many are broken. I know I am.

 

[throughfaith]

More to the point receiving the atonement is through faith. Thats the only condition.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

Is it right then that we point out the sin that has been committed? Is it wrong if we do not? Sometimes people have various reasons for why they sin and we don't know their inner thoughts or justifications. I just wonder your thoughts on the rebuking part of this discussion. I agree with what you have said, but I wonder if it helps or can further hurt someone to even gently call them out on their sin.

Sure speak correction in love, and compassion. We want them to correct and repent. Keeping in mind it's not about us it's for them. I'm all for communication, teaching and learning.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

the example of someone preaching heresy might be useful to look at:

we are to treat them as anathema, cursed things, not listening to them or fellowshipping with them. elders are expected to be able to contradict false teaching with right doctrine, both commanding heretics not to continue spreading their lies and gently instructing them in truth, with hope that they will come to repentance & escape the Devil's deceit.

so is this 'forgiving unrepentant heretics'? if it is, it's certainly not ignoring their sin.

Yes, I agree that heresy must be corrected, and if they don't correct we have to send them away, but it's for everyone's good. In hopes that they repent. I'm glad you brought this up because it's important. We sent away heretics, if they refuse correction, with sorrow in hopes that they repent, with prayers that they repent.
I once lost a friend due to heresy, it was very sad. I have regained him now, he no longer espouses the heresy thank God.

 

[pottersclay]

In order to receive grace one must extend it.
In order to receive forgiveness one must extend it.
To receive mercy one must extend it.
Such are the peace makers which are the children of God.

We are not children of wrath but children of God.

There is a time to pray for and to pray against.
The Lord sees and knows what opposition we are against in every situation. In fact he has warned us of it.
He councils us to demonstrate the kingdom of God in such matters.
If the brother or sister see and hears and repents you have gained. If not we are to mark and walk away leaving it in the hand of the Lord. Which is a fearful and frightening thing according to paul.

 

[Dino246]

This thread has several themes mixed together:

- the nature of forgiveness;
- the relationship between apology and repentance;
- God's forgiveness of human sin;
- human forgiveness of another human's sin;
- how my forgiveness of another's actions impacts me;
- how my forgiveness of another's actions impacts them;
- the relationship between forgiveness and reconciliation;
- dealing with another's hurtful behaviour towards me;
- dealing with another's general bad behaviour;
- dealing with another's heresy;
- dealing with repeat offenses; and
- (there is more!)

That is enough material for a book, which I won't try to write here. What I will say is that when we conflate these things, our understanding of the matter cannot but be confused.

 

[Kolistus]

Luke 17​

3 “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.”​

​

What if he doesn't repent? What then?

 

[throughfaith]

In order to receive grace one must extend it.
In order to receive forgiveness one must extend it.
To receive mercy one must extend it.
Such are the peace makers which are the children of God.

We are not children of wrath but children of God.

There is a time to pray for and to pray against.
The Lord sees and knows what opposition we are against in every situation. In fact he has warned us of it.
He councils us to demonstrate the kingdom of God in such matters.
If the brother or sister see and hears and repents you have gained. If not we are to mark and walk away leaving it in the hand of the Lord. Which is a fearful and frightening thing according to paul.

We are a child of God today when we recieve Jesus . John 1.12. Through the new birth ,not being a peace maker.

 

[throughfaith]

Believers today use verses out of context to condemn people if they don't forgive them .

 

[BrianS]

This thread has several themes mixed together:

- the nature of forgiveness;
- the relationship between apology and repentance;
- God's forgiveness of human sin;
- human forgiveness of another human's sin;
- how my forgiveness of another's actions impacts me;
- how my forgiveness of another's actions impacts them;
- the relationship between forgiveness and reconciliation;
- dealing with another's hurtful behaviour towards me;
- dealing with another's general bad behaviour;
- dealing with another's heresy;
- dealing with repeat offenses; and
- (there is more!)

That is enough material for a book, which I won't try to write here. What I will say is that when we conflate these things, our understanding of the matter cannot but be confused.

True, very true, there is a lot going on in here all of which is worth delving deeper into, especially when it comes to the subject of forgiveness. I thank everyone for their contributions and opinions, this is definitely a topic that could have its own class or a subject of a small group discussion. I saw the original post last night and I could not wait to see where it went. It was all good and thought provoking information. Dino, thank you, I wish I had the ability to discern and break down the individual topics as well as you have.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

What if he doesn't repent? What then?

Forget about it, and it will be between him and God.

 

[Kolistus]

Forget about it, and it will be between him and God.

True. But I mean it says, forgive if they repent. Why shouldn't we forgive even if they do not repent? Maybe Jesus meant a public forgiveness of some sort

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Forgiveness is offered unilaterally. What of those who refuse it?

Is that a condition? I do. It see it as a condition. A condition is something that must be accomplished to earn something you can’t earn salvation

 

[Magenta]

Is that a condition? I do. It see it as a condition. A condition is something that must be accomplished to earn something you can’t earn salvation

It could be said that forgiveness is unilaterally offered, and that
salvation is conditioned upon acceptance of proffered forgiveness.

I agree that we do not earn salvation. It is a gift that must be received.

People have a choice. The most important question anybody can answer is one Jesus put to His disciples:

“But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?”

 

[throughfaith]

What do you mean by forgiveness ? Salvation ? which verse says we recieve forgiveness when we believe?

 

[throughfaith]

It could be said that forgiveness is unilaterally offered, and that
salvation is conditioned upon acceptance of proffered forgiveness.

I agree that we do not earn salvation. It is a gift that must be received.

People have a choice. The most important question anybody can answer is one Jesus put to His disciples:

“But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Which verse says we recieve forgiveness When we believe?

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

True. But I mean it says, forgive if they repent. Why shouldn't we forgive even if they do not repent? Maybe Jesus meant a public forgiveness of some sort

He was talking about relationship restoration. Forgiving isn't necessarily restoration, in the event of no repentance.