Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[Absolutely]

I explain them to be simultaneous with 1 Corinthians 15:52

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Last trumpet Christ returns, resurrection, and "changing" in interpret to mean rapture due to other verses that say the rapture occurs at the return of Christ. It all occurs in the "twinkling of an eye" so very quickly. There's no other available option to describe what is "changing" aside from the rapture.

This will be the end of human history. Theres nothing left except the GWTJ and judgement seat of Christ.

Textbook.
Keep to the workbook.

Pretend the verses in the table are removed

Always answer from your workbook!

Poooof.... Postrib rapture works!

 

[Absolutely]

I believe those things and I believe the Bible. The original question asked was:

"Could you provide the clear verse that tells us that Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing all believers?'

I haven't seen a verse says Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing all believers.

The reason is because there isn't a verse that says it. This belief that it happens is a pre-tribulation doctrine.

""Could you provide the clear verse that tells us that Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing all believers?'""

Yes

But you will NOT LISTEN.

WHY?

Because 1) you WILL NOT LOOK
2) YOU ALREADY ....in your mind.... Have shut out ANY SUCH POSSIBLITY OR VERSES.

IOW, Your starting place is in one dimension. And that dimension is "pretrib rapture can not be"

So stay there,but pretending verses do not say what they do is bizarre.

 

[Absolutely]

Yes. I think the Return of Christ, rapture, and resurrection occur instantly together or within a short span of each other followed quickly by the great white throne judgement and millennial kingdom.

Yep

That would be perfectly logical in your circles.
There is nothing new here. I have sat through hours of your teachers.
None of them bring Rapture verses to the table.

You are textbook postrib rapture.
Your center is their center.... OMISSION.
OMISSION is the key.

 

[Absolutely]

I don't care how stubborn you think the "left behind" people will be, none of them will be able to disregard the voracity of the Word of God after the greatest event you Jesuit Futurists claim will ever strike the planet: the "secret rapture". So, please stop trying to compare the Antediluvians -- who had to walk by faith alone and "knew not until" destruction suddenly came upon them -- with your "secret rapture" sinners who will be walking by sight.
It's not difficult to comprehend that Jesus' comparison of the Antediluvians wasn't limited to just the idea that a lie naturally fills the vacuum when we reject the truth. That applies to the entire history of the wicked, not just those living in Noah's day and those living in your so-called "7 year tribulation".

Any verses you would like to debate?
All that you said is extra biblical.

Your center is extra biblical as is your responses.

 

[Absolutely]

Of those "7 Vials" (with the "7 LAST plagues"... aside from the "ALL [/every] plagues, as often as they will" of the "2W's [days]" PRIOR to this point in the chronology[!]-->[which theirs is ending at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" time-slot!]) it is stated, "for IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED"... NOT "is STARTED"

... the same exact word ("completed") is found in one other verse:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound the trumpet, then the mystery of God would be completed, as proclaimed to His servants, the prophets" ... and I don't see anyone suggesting that "the mystery of God" (a phrase only used elsewhere in Col2:2-3 "...which is Christ Himself") "is STARTED AND COMPLETED" "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound"... right?? That would be just silly... I would think.

"""Please, let's not confuse "the time of trouble" aka what you Jesuit Futurists call...."""

1) nobody knows what your snide labeling means
2) can you make a sentence without your mystery " jesuit" put downs????

 

[Absolutely]

I already said... I do NOT think it will take place AS DESCRIBED in the "Left Behind" series of book and movies as they've depicted it...



...and no "crashed vehicles everywhere"...


... at the same time that the "religious lost' will also be spreading their delusional FALSEHOODS that "what just happened" (the removal of lotsa ppl!) was "what Matthew 13 HAS SAID" (not!)... that the "TARES" have been "GATHERED OUT" (but that will be a total mis-application of Scripture and timing / chronology! / i.e LIE!)
Paul tells of the TWO CONTRASTING "beliefs" ppl will come to, following "our Rapture" (some will believe THE TRUTH; others will embrace THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI instead!)

They do not believe any of " our" verses because 1) they are not thinking critically
2 ) they ignore rapture verses.
3) their CENTER is extra biblical.

 

[Absolutely]

[G646 - apostasia / apostasis - 2Th2:3]


[quoting old post]

Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon (1889) -

ἀποστασία late form of ἀπόστασις

[this ^ says: "apostasia late form for apostasis" (i.e. the SAME WORD)]


Then when you go to the entry for "apostasis" (it says under that entry):

ἀπόστασις ἀφίσταμαι

a standing away from, and so,

1.a defection, revolt, ἀπό τινος or τινος Hdt., Thuc.; πρός τινα Thuc.

2.departure from, βίου Eur.

3.distance, interval, Plat.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=a)po/stasis

[end quoting]



____________

The Greeks had a different word for "to fall" - "pipto".


[then see my post again about the 8x (out of 9x) definition for the word "STASIS / STASIN" (used in Heb9:8-9a), and then note that 9th occurrence (as well as its "context" saying, "which is A PARABLE for the present time")]

Yes it means "" from standing"" which no matter how they slice it, it is ONLY SAYING literally " departure"

" From the faith " is implied.

But it changes neither side.
It changes absolutely nothing. But they "believe" it is pivotal.

Total rabbit trails. Makes either case ...just spin it either way.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"""Please, let's not confuse "the time of trouble" aka what you Jesuit Futurists call...."""

1) nobody knows what your snide labeling means
2) can you make a sentence without your mystery " jesuit" put downs????

You talkin' to me?? (you quoted my post)

... coz I don't recall saying those things... = )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes it means "" from standing"" which no matter how they slice it, it is ONLY SAYING literally " departure"
" From the faith " is implied.
But it changes neither side.
It changes absolutely nothing. But they "believe" it is pivotal.
Total rabbit trails. Makes either case ...just spin it either way.

Not sure of your point, but... like I've said:

--v.1 is all about "our Rapture" event (v.3b's "THE Departure *FIRST*" is "our Rapture" BEFORE "the man of sin BE REVEALED" at the START of the TRIB yrs--so "PRE-trib Rapture" here)

--v.2 is all about the "earthly time-period" (judgments unfolding upon the earth over the course of SOME TIME--same TIME PERIOD that "the man of sin" will exist in/ARRIVE to do all his things within that time period--the 7 yr TRIB... [but it also continues on even after his "destruction" to include all of the earthly MK age also--per the OT definition of this phrase]);

--Paul is exhorting them NOT to be persuaded by anyone telling them that it [that earthly time-period / TRIB] "IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]"... it wasn't, and he tells WHY (ONE THING must take place "*FIRST*"--"our Rapture / THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*" before THAT TIME PERIOD [with THAT PARTICULAR PERSON/man of sin] can/will *BE PRESENT*)


--by mis-defining phrases, and making incorrect connections, in this text, they have Paul conveying the exact OPPOSITE of what he is actually conveying here.. so yes, it does "change" things

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes it means "" from standing"" which no matter how they slice it, it is ONLY SAYING literally " departure"

" From the faith " is implied.

Well, that'd be a consideration... except that Paul (throughout these two epistles) is largely covering the Subject of an "eschatological salvation"... so he's referring to such (in numerous ways and phrases, NOT JUST ONE) throughout these two epistles. It makes much better sense (even apart from the evidences within the IMMEDIATE context) that he is speaking of "THE Departure" he had ALREADY SPOKEN OF, lotsa times[!], than to think that this word (which at its most BASIC meaning, is simply "DEPARTURE") should be INJECTED with the idea of "from the faith"... we should take the basic meaning of the word and let CONTEXT determine "just WHAT KIND" of departure is meant (and this text states "THE Departure"... one already known unto the recipients, and PREVIOUSLY mentioned in the context [per the "definite article" and its PURPOSES]--So v.1's EVENT "fits" perfectly, in every way!)

 

[Runningman]

""Could you provide the clear verse that tells us that Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing all believers?'""

Yes

But you will NOT LISTEN.

WHY?

Because 1) you WILL NOT LOOK
2) YOU ALREADY ....in your mind.... Have shut out ANY SUCH POSSIBLITY OR VERSES.

IOW, Your starting place is in one dimension. And that dimension is "pretrib rapture can not be"

So stay there,but pretending verses do not say what they do is bizarre.

I am only interested in what the Bible says about it. It doesn't help me to force it to say something that isn't explicitly stated. That being said, I'm here to discuss what the Bible says or doesn't say.

You could have used that comment to show me the verse you say exists about Jesus going back to heaven with the raptured saints.

You're deflecting. Just say "It doesn't exist." We don't need to find a hill to die on just because we want to appear as if we won a debate. I've lost plenty of debates. The important thing is to learn. If we aren't learning then what's the point of all this?

These threads are just confusing and divisive. My personal opinion? Stop making rapture threads lol because they cause a lot of arguing. Let's focus on our unity in Christ.

Is Jesus returning sometime in the future? Yes! We agree on that much.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And refutes the idea of a pre-trib rapture. Because v.1 gives the order of things. The Second Coming is listed first, followed by "our being gathered" to Him. That's the rapture.

Verse 1 is not speaking of [what we call] "His Second Coming TO THE EARTH [Rev19]":

Of course it is. Ch 4 and 5 of 1 Thess are exactly about that.

--[I addressed this in an earlier post in this thread-->] v.1a's "the coming [/parousia] of OUR Lord Jesus Christ" [<--phrasing always pertains to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" in association/connection "WITH Him"]
... is DISTINGUISHED in this very passage FROM v.8b's "the APPEARANCE [ / APPEARING / MANIFESTATION] of the presence [/parousia] of Him" [when EVERY EYE shall SEE Him;--1Tim6:15 "SHALL SHEW [/OPENLY MANIFEST--Rev19 "King of kings..."]"
--1Tim6:15 being one of only TWO references to "King" (re: Him) in all of the epistles;
--note even v.8a is seven years apart from v.8b;

Sorry, but what you 'addressed' is your opinion. You have not presented any facts that are apparent.

All you're trying to do is blend a pre-trib "event" and the Second Coming together in order to support a pre-trib rapture.

But, consider these verses that precede 2:1-

ch 4-
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

In v.15, "the coming of the Lord" is obvious; it's the Second Coming. And v.17 says nothing about returning to heaven.

ch 5-
1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,
2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

v.2 refers to the Second Coming again. v.4 explains WHY believers shouldn't be surprised like the unbelievers. We aren't in "darkness". The living believers will easily recognize the evil of the Tribulation.

2 Thess 1-
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

This chapter precedes the mention of the Second Coming in 2:1.

The red words refer to the Second Coming.
The blue words refer to the unbelievers who will face God's judgment.
The green words explain what the judgment will be.

v.10 again emphasizes the Second Coming. So the context for 2:1 is the Second Coming.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I know postrib by heart.

We'll see about that.

Trump
Trumpet
only one " coming"

Well, it's properly called the SECOND COMING.

Pre-tribbers split the SECOND Coming into several comings.

" Pretrib has no verses"

Well, of course. Because they don't. If they did, they would provide them. All the pre-tribbers have is conjecture and construct. But zero evidence.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Runningman said:
I believe those things and I believe the Bible. The original question asked was:

"Could you provide the clear verse that tells us that Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing all believers?'

I haven't seen a verse says Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing all believers.

The reason is because there isn't a verse that says it. This belief that it happens is a pre-tribulation doctrine.

Wink wink
Oh yeah.

Just keep repeating that

Just a typical retort from those who have ZERO evidence for their construct.

Here are the FACTS:

1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.

These are the absolute facts that cannot be denied.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Runningman said:
I believe those things and I believe the Bible. The original question asked was:

"Could you provide the clear verse that tells us that Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing all believers?'

I haven't seen a verse says Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing all believers.

The reason is because there isn't a verse that says it. This belief that it happens is a pre-tribulation doctrine.

Just a typical retort from those who have ZERO evidence for their construct.

Here are the FACTS:

1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.

These are the absolute facts that cannot be denied.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What's with this 5 minute time limit for editing posts. In post 1675, I included Runningman's post, which was a quote in Absolutely's post

His response to Runningman's quote was this:
Wink wink
Oh yeah.

Just keep repeating that

That quote didn't show up in my post, #1675, and my comments were for Absolutely, not Runningman.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Textbook.
Keep to the workbook.

Pretend the verses in the table are removed

Always answer from your workbook!

Poooof.... Postrib rapture works!

Another typical retort from those who have ZERO evidence for their pre-trib fantasy, supported only by conjecture and construct.

 

[FreeGrace2]

""Could you provide the clear verse that tells us that Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting/rapturing all believers?'""

Yes

But you will NOT LISTEN.

On the contrary, we've been listening for an answer, and NO pre-tribber has given one. So there's NOTHING to hear yet.

WHY?

Hey, that's OUR question to YOU. Where are the verses that convince one that Jesus takes glorified saints back up to heaven?
Where, where, where are they?

Because 1) you WILL NOT LOOK

Oh, we've been asking asking asking, and looking looking looking for quite a while, and all we get are the kind of posts that you give; no evidence at all. Just a whole lot of conjecture and construct.

2) YOU ALREADY ....in your mind.... Have shut out ANY SUCH POSSIBLITY OR VERSES.

Based on the FACTS of Scripture, and your total inability to find any evidence that supports your conjecture.

IOW, Your starting place is in one dimension.

On the contrary, our starting place is the Bible. Please don't call the Bible "one dimension".

And that dimension is "pretrib rapture can not be"

On the contrary, that is our conclusion, based on the facts that have already been presented.

So stay there,but pretending verses do not say what they do is bizarre.

What is bizarre is all the ignoring of the FACTS that pre-tribbers ignore.

Here are the FACTS:

1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.

These are the absolute facts that cannot be denied.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yep

That would be perfectly logical in your circles.
There is nothing new here. I have sat through hours of your teachers.
None of them bring Rapture verses to the table.

You are textbook postrib rapture.
Your center is their center.... OMISSION.
OMISSION is the key.

Here are the FACTS:

1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.

These are the absolute facts that cannot be denied.

We haven't omitted anything, other than your conjecture and construct.

 

[FreeGrace2]

They do not believe any of " our" verses because 1) they are not thinking critically

"your" verses?? Which verses?? You haven't shown any yet.

2 ) they ignore rapture verses.

When are you going to share them?

3) their CENTER is extra biblical.

No, our center is the Bible, unlike your center.

Here are the FACTS:

1. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.
2. 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that those who belong to Christ will be glorified as a single group, after Christ was glorified at His resurrection. iow, all at once. Not in separate events.
3. 2 Thess 2:1 shows that the "gathering" follows the Second Coming.
4. Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Tribulation martyrs as "the FIRST resurrection", and is contrasted with the gathering of unbelievers at the GWT Judgment.
5. No verses speak of glorified believers being taken back up to heaven.

These are the absolute facts that cannot be denied.