Was the Garden of Eden, literally Heaven on Earth? Was the Earth already fallen except for the Garden?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
conform to. Adam is the Son of GOD (Luke 3:38) Jesus His Pre-Eminence is the GOD and Father of Adam. HE is GOD the Son, .
he HE capitalised should not be capitalised. That was a mistake.

So why did you capitalise 'Adam is the Son of God'.. It actually says Adam is the son of God? Adam is just a man. Of course in your mind it's you who decide what scripture does say or doesn't. Heres what you say about Paul's writings when Dino asked you a question:

Do you accept Paul's writings as Scripture?
His writings are his interpretations of the original scrolls which he used. Therefore, there are some things that are on point, but other things are not. If you can point me to a place where he said what Jesus His Pre-Eminence said, i am all ears.

And here is more of your heresy, also believing that you can ditch parts of scripture that does not fit your heresy.

----
Paul baptized, and he was not one of the eleven, or twelve for that matter. Ananias was not sent by the 11, as far as we can see from the Bible, and he baptized Saul of Tarsus.
Here is the whopper. when you answer presidente:

---
And he never should have done that. He was not sent to batptize.
Then we have some of your blatant lies:

yet Apostle Peter was the Angel of that Church age

The list could go on. So I am just asking you nicely to stop with writing your heresy.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,188
113
“cursed is the ground for thy sake;”

I don’t think God is cursing the ground here, I think he is saying Adam is now fallen with the rest of the Earth. I think satan caused everything but the Garden to be fallen ..and when God cursed satan it, in turn, cursed the ground.

Did God start the Garden after satan's fall to give humans a chance at Heaven?

Was the flood about getting rid of the people that satan and his demons caused to fall after creation?
cursed is the groud for THY sake meaning...Adam would find it hard.

I think you are imagining a bit more than there really is. If youve ever had to garden on clay soil, you'll know how hard it can be! But you can do it, just takes more time. And clay soil is actually full of minerals
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
The Sin on the cross, is mortality. That is the original sin of Man that HE took when HE made HIMSELF mortal at the last supper. Transfiguration is putting off mortality and putting on immortality in life without dying at all. For those at the resurrection, it is putting on the body they had, that is (quickened) or transfigured by their Spirit Being.

Jesus His Pre-Eminence on the cross was preaching the message of crossing from mortality into immortalty. The proof is that when HE said:

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.

Notice that the people standing there said: This man calls for Elijah? Why? Because Elisha said the same thing. But they removed the whole thing and GOD was reminding them of what happens when you forsake the Prophet.

Look at what they wrote in 2 kings 2.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

They wrote: The chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof. This doesn't make sense.

GOD revealed what it was that Elisha said as Elijah transfigured and ascended... My GOD my GOD why hast thou forsaken me.

If you read it without revelations, its difficult to catch. Preachers have preached for a millenia trying to explain this. But they haven't understood transfiguration. So it was impossible for them to stitch the two...

Elisha was not supposed to be left behind. He was supposed to transfigure with Elijah. But Elisha did not successfuly gain the launch into jericho - which means he did not put off mortality and put on immortality in life, like Elijah did.

And the last thing i want to point out, is that when they pierced HIS left side, (pointing to the body), blood and water spilled out. Why? Literally you think its just because that is what is in the body, but it was pointing to the crossing of the red sea of Moses, and the crossing of the River Jordan of Joshua to the Promised Land.
Mortality doesn't forgive every sin to ever happen.
 
Feb 22, 2021
684
35
28
So why did you capitalise 'Adam is the Son of God'.. It actually says Adam is the son of God? Adam is just a man. Of course in your mind it's you who decide what scripture does say or doesn't. Heres what you say about Paul's writings when Dino asked you a question:






And here is more of your heresy, also believing that you can ditch parts of scripture that does not fit your heresy.

----

Here is the whopper. when you answer presidente:

---

Then we have some of your blatant lies:




The list could go on. So I am just asking you nicely to stop with writing your heresy.
Luke 3;38
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Jesus His Pre-Eminence being the Word that was crucified was revealing what the those that put together the bible would do the Word of GOD. This was also revealed in Rev 11: where the Law and the Prophets (taken together is the bible) lay dead on the streets spiritually called Sodom and Egypt (which they said is where our LORD was crucified. Where was our LORD crucified? Do tell.

Paul was not any of the 12 that were sent to baptize. Baptizm is not simply immersing someone into water, it is pointing to Abrahams Bosom, and also to Transfiguration. Tell me, what authority paul has baptize concerning these?
 
Feb 22, 2021
684
35
28
Mortality doesn't forgive every sin to ever happen.
The reason why we can sin at all, is because of the mortal body which has her own nature that is contrary to ours. Even your apostle saul paul spoke about this:

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,953
113
I wish you wouldn't. Dino while he may sometimes be blunt or even crass, is an insightful & discerning man, and ideas that cannot stand up to scrutiny are not worth holding. this is the sharpening of iron with iron. if you can prove your doctrine against criticism, both you and your critics are edified - but if you shut your ears to them, what is added to you, or to them?

I don't block people, even the ones I most strongly disagree with. all of us here are comparing what we hear with scripture and seeking to know the truth. the process of testing & analysis is of necessity violent toward ideas. like the threshing of wheat to remove the chaff, or the burning away of impurity in an ore, it's not gentle.

we must find a way to be gentle towards each other while stern towards what may be disproven
Well said, however, I do block people as an alternative to casting the dust off of my feet/shoes. I do it not to shut people up, but to let them know that to mistreat others has a price . . . and it is to be Righteously Ignored.
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
The reason why we can sin at all, is because of the mortal body which has her own nature that is contrary to ours. Even your apostle saul paul spoke about this:

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Mortality is part of the equation ..it doesn't answer specific sins of everyone. The point I'm trying to make is that Jesus had some kind of access to everyone.
 
Feb 22, 2021
684
35
28
Mortality is part of the equation ..it doesn't answer specific sins of everyone. The point I'm trying to make is that Jesus had some kind of access to everyone.
You need to understand that mortality is not the best of GOD. Mortality is the fallen state. Man in his perfect state, in his transfigured body cannot sin. Its not a matter of choosing not to sin, its a matter of it being impossible to sin. Why? Because the nature of the Man and of the body are in agreement.

In a mortal body, the body is not in agreement with your Spirit. That is why you can't stop yourself from sinning..
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
You need to understand that mortality is not the best of GOD. Mortality is the fallen state. Man in his perfect state, in his transfigured body cannot sin. Its not a matter of choosing not to sin, its a matter of it being impossible to sin. Why? Because the nature of the Man and of the body are in agreement.

In a mortal body, the body is not in agreement with your Spirit. That is why you can't stop yourself from sinning..
Colossians 1:22

he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,

How do we become blameless without specific sins being addressed?
 
Feb 22, 2021
684
35
28
Colossians 1:22

he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,

How do we become blameless without specific sins being addressed?
The specific sin is mortality. You were born into this earth as a mortal were you not? That is what it means to be born of water. Like the earth was born of water. And the body that is mortal is earthy. Like the womans water breaks before she gives birth. This is another reason Moses is not a Prophet. His name means "drawn from water". He was put in an ark and was drawn from water literally. He is typifying the body, and the body is not a Prophet. The Spirit is the Prophet. Like Jesus His Pre- Eminence said: I have many things to say to you howbeit ye can not bear them now. When he the Spirit of Truth is come, he shall lead you into all truth.

Then Revelation 10:7 speaks of the 7th Angel that when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of GOD shall be finished.

So the body that you have, that we all have is a mortal body. That is the body that was born of water. There is the body that is born of the Spirit, and that is the immortal body, the celestial immortal body which is tangible, physical, is that born that was born of the Spirit.

Except ye are born of water (born of a woman) and born of the Spirit ye cannot enter into the kingdom. why? Because the kingdom is a celestial heavens world. And you must have the body required to enter into that heaven. That is even why there must be a resurrection for those that died so that they can put on their immortal celestial body BEFORE they gain that entrance into heaven.

Enoch and Elijah were born again. That is what it means to be born again.
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
The specific sin is mortality. You were born into this earth as a mortal were you not? That is what it means to be born of water. Like the earth was born of water. And the body that is mortal is earthy. Like the womans water breaks before she gives birth. This is another reason Moses is not a Prophet. His name means "drawn from water". He was put in an ark and was drawn from water literally. He is typifying the body, and the body is not a Prophet. The Spirit is the Prophet. Like Jesus His Pre- Eminence said: I have many things to say to you howbeit ye can not bear them now. When he the Spirit of Truth is come, he shall lead you into all truth.

Then Revelation 10:7 speaks of the 7th Angel that when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of GOD shall be finished.

So the body that you have, that we all have is a mortal body. That is the body that was born of water. There is the body that is born of the Spirit, and that is the immortal body, the celestial immortal body which is tangible, physical, is that born that was born of the Spirit.

Except ye are born of water (born of a woman) and born of the Spirit ye cannot enter into the kingdom. why? Because the kingdom is a celestial heavens world. And you must have the body required to enter into that heaven. That is even why there must be a resurrection for those that died so that they can put on their immortal celestial body BEFORE they gain that entrance into heaven.

Enoch and Elijah were born again. That is what it means to be born again.
So you are refusing to consider Jesus's image could be in all of us.

  • For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,953
113
Mortality is part of the equation ..it doesn't answer specific sins of everyone. The point I'm trying to make is that Jesus had some kind of access to everyone.
I think that it's a bit more than just having access, but it is more like how Christ is in control of ALL things. I know for a fact that God has control over my entire life and that there isn't anything I can do about it. I am on a most painful path, and I cannot escape it, hard as I might try. Remember, you are either under the control of Satan or the Holy Spirit and there is no in-between.

Romans 8:9 NLT - "But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,953
113
So you are refusing to consider Jesus's image could be in all of us.

  • For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
This is referring to the Grace, Mercy, and Compassion that God issues upon all whom He Elects.

Exodus 33:19 NLT - "The LORD replied, "I will make all my goodness pass before you, and I will call out my name, Yahweh, before you. For I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose."
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
I think that it's a bit more than just having access, but it is more like how Christ is in control of ALL things. I know for a fact that God has control over my entire life and that there isn't anything I can do about it. I am on a most painful path, and I cannot escape it, hard as I might try. Remember, you are either under the control of Satan or the Holy Spirit and there is no in-between.

Romans 8:9 NLT - "But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)"
Pretty sure rotten things happen around here. God is allowing this place to function. If He was in complete control He would prevent evil acts from happening. This place is a morality test. A test that only matters because of what Jesus did. Yes, the Holy Spirit is working through us that believe. It doesn't mean Jesus's image can't be in everyone.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,953
113
If He was in complete control He would prevent evil acts from happening.
That's not what my KJV says:

Isaiah 45:7 KJV - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"

God has a Plan. It's described in Ephesians 2 and 3; we would all do well to know this text.
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
That's not what my KJV says:

Isaiah 45:7 KJV - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"

God has a Plan. It's described in Ephesians 2 and 3; we would all do well to know this text.
Evil in this text was the Hebrew for ra' ..it meant hard times. How do you explain starvation and kids with cancer?
 
Jan 21, 2021
2,852
318
83
Jesus is the Spirit above all souls. Do you think that maybe Jesus has something to do with souls? Like He can access them?
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,953
113
How do you explain starvation and kids with cancer?
Considering that I was JUST told that I have cancer, I take it to be a part of the Fall of Man. This is what it means that the ground would be cursed . . . ground, as in all of creation. For, all will die because of what Adam and Eve had done.

So I have cancer, they say. Big deal. I'm ready to suffer and ready to die.

Philippians 1:29 NKJV - "For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,"
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
5,883
1,953
113
Jesus is the Spirit above all souls. Do you think that maybe Jesus has something to do with souls? Like He can access them?
Of course, God has access, for He is in control of ALL things. But it isn't about access as much as it is about His Power and Omniscience to fulfill His Mysterious Plan . . . a Plan that will not be thwarted. He does this by controlling all people, be it through the Sin Nature or by the Laws of the Spirit of Life, which is the Divine Nature.

2 Peter 1:4 NLT - "And because of his glory and excellence, he has given us great and precious promises. These are the promises that enable you to share his divine nature and escape the world's corruption caused by human desires."
 
Feb 22, 2021
684
35
28
So you are refusing to consider Jesus's image could be in all of us.

  • For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
All of the children of the kingdom were born in the fathers Bosom Spirit Being without Physical body. They are who GOD foreknew.
Even GOD said to Jeremiah: Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee and sactified thee a Prophet to the nations.