Who is the 12th apostle in Rev 21:14?

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CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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#81
Do you mean who are the 12 apostles names on the foundations of the New Jerusalem? If someone really needs an answer to that I would go with Matthias. However, I don't think that is the point. It is not about the specific names so much as the theological truth represented in the vision of the apostles teachings that make up the foundation of the church. So Paul is included in that foundation whether his name is inscribed or not.

But so are you and I. Called as ministers of the Gospel we are building on that foundation. We must make sure we build with gold, silver, precious stones of Jesus Christ and not wood, hay, and stubble, senseless debates that do not result in knowing Christ and making him Known. :)
Rev 21:14 ???
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#82
Yes, you are correct, yet I did n to say Mattias was not an apostle or with certainty, he is the 12th spoken in Rev or paul for that matter. But I am very much thinking it has to do more of what Scribe was speaking about.
That's the point I was making with using the Ephesians text.. However, I didn't explain it to well, so that was my fault..:oops:.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,058
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#83
That's the point I was making with using the Ephesians text.. However, I didn't explain it to well, so that was my fault..:oops:.
no fault at all :) I was hearing incorrectly
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#84
My Mom would say, when surprised or taken aback, "Lawsy, Lawsy." Also she would sometimes say, "Land of Goshen."
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#85
Hi freegrace,

Thanks for that I wasn't sure what you mean't by GC(y).

As my posts above. I think you have failed to prove biblically that Matthias is not an Apostle.
I've shown where Paul received the GC the SAME WAY the 11 did. Matthias didn't. Nor any others. Only 12 men received the GC face to face.

I think Scripture makes a clear case that Matthias was chosen as an Apostle and through the use of lots and prayer of the 11 (Acts 1:24) and the fulfillment of scripture (which the Holy Spirit inspired( Acts 1:20-21)).
No one doubts that the 11 cast lots, trying to fill the 12th slot. You are free to expect to see Matthias' name on the foundation of the New Jerusalem, but he never received the GC at all. Only 12 men did.

First they prayed and then cast lots:
A lot of people pray first and then run head long into bad decisions.

--And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, Acts 1:24
Were they ordering Him to show them? Or were they just trying to "help out" God?

So,

1) Did God choose Matthias or not? (In answer to the Apostles prayer)
2) Did the 11 Apostles make a major mess in the fulfilment of scripture (Acts 1:20-21)
3) Was Matthias an Apostle
1. No
2. No. I'd call it a minor one.
3. Since we have zero evidence of what he did, we don't know what he did. Apostles had powers of miracles and healing, and tongues.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#86
Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said...[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: . Therefore Paul stated that there were the 12 that saw Jesus and he recognized them as 12.
This is not the issue. The issue is who received the GC. Only 12 men did, including Paul and excluding the rest of the 120 disciples, noted in Acts 1:15.

You cannot dismiss that.
I sure can.

Your speculation about Paul being one of the 12 when Paul himself states that other 12 were the 12 cannot be dismissed with your theory.
No speculation or theory. The simple question is to WHOM did Jesus personally charge with the GC? Period.

Nice try but you must concede that Paul is correct and you were wrong.
Of course Paul acknowledged there were 12 designated apostles.

Just be sure to check out the foundations of the NJ when we get to eternity.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#87
Paul was not present either when Jesus commissioned the 11 disciples.
You are correct. And Matthias wasn't present when Jesus met Paul directly on the road to Damascus either.

How many men received the GC personally by the Lord? 12. Including Paul, excluding Matthias.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#88
WHERE was it written in scripture a person had to be called PERSONALLY by Christ in order to be an apostle?
The whole point is that the GC is what commissioned the apostles to evangelize the world. So, who received the GC? 12, including Paul and excluding Matthias.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#89
This is not the issue. The issue is who received the GC. Only 12 men did, including Paul and excluding the rest of the 120 disciples, noted in Acts 1:15.

No speculation or theory. The simple question is to WHOM did Jesus personally charge with the GC? Period.

Of course Paul acknowledged there were 12 designated apostles.

Just be sure to check out the foundations of the NJ when we get to eternity.
All of Christendom believes that the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19 applies to every born again believer. All 120 spoke in tongues, all 120 were empowered to be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost part of the earth, the Holy Spirit is still empowering believers for the same mission. PERIOD.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#90
This is not the issue. The issue is who received the GC. Only 12 men did, including Paul and excluding the rest of the 120 disciples, noted in Acts 1:15.


I sure can.


No speculation or theory. The simple question is to WHOM did Jesus personally charge with the GC? Period.


Of course Paul acknowledged there were 12 designated apostles.

Just be sure to check out the foundations of the NJ when we get to eternity.
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ostle-in-rev-21-14.197843/page-3#post-4507157
Living4Him in post #59 made it very clear. Don't you agree that Paul was referring to Matthias as one of the 12 and not himself?
And also your are not correct that Matthias is not part of the Great Commission because Jesus probably said it more than once when he was seen by various groups. Mark 16:15-20.
In addition as I stated in a previous post the names on the foundation are not given in Rev because the symbolism is more important that of the teaching and preaching of the Apostles of which we all have a part to play as we continue the mission. Won't you be surprised when you see my name one one of the bricks on that building?
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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#91
Won't you be surprised when you see my name one one of the bricks on that building?
Just one brick Lord, just one! :giggle:

1 Corinthians 2:9-10KJV
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
 
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Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
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#92
He was part of the 72 sent out by Christ, naturally he, like the other 59 excluding the Disciples themselves, were all sent out.
Where did you get 72 sent out from?

That was a slider, curve, and knuckle ball all wrapped into one :giggle:

The topic is who was the 12th Apostle, and it's clearly answered below.


Acts 1:23-26KJV
23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#93
Not Paul ... the conditions for the 12 apostles upon whom the church is founded was that they had to be witness to "His coming in and going out [His life] His death, burial and resurrection" they had to be eye witnesses.
Paul WAS an eyewitness. On the road to Damascus.

And again, Jesus personally charged 12 men with the GC. But NOT Matthias or any of the other 120 as noted in Acts 1:20.

Even though Paul is the great apostle he acknowledged that he was not one of the pillars of the church.
No, he never acknowledged such a thing. What he said was that he was the least of the apostles, and that was due to his history of persecuting the church.

In his calling for the great council in Jerusalem he was submitting himself to them. I am SURE if the council had gone against Paul he would have become a break away apostle and there would have been schism..
It was Paul who braced Peter (one of the 3 in Jesus' inner circle) for his legalism.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#94
[QUOTE="CS1, post: 4507414, member: 126684"is it possible the 12 spoken in Rev has nothing to do with a person but more of the message given from the Holy Spirit to the churches? and are the foundational truths of the church?[/QUOTE]
The verse says "12 apostles". Let's not spiritualize it.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#95
All of Christendom believes that the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19 applies to every born again believer.
They need to study the Scriptures like the Bereans did. Which I have done.

I gave the evidence from all 3 passages that mention the GC that the 11 remaining disciples were the only ones present. And Acts 9:15 shows, plus Paul's own testimony, is that Jesus commissioned him to take the gospel to all the world. Which he did.

All 120 spoke in tongues, all 120 were empowered to be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost part of the earth, the Holy Spirit is still empowering believers for the same mission. PERIOD.
None of this equals apostleship. If so, then ALL of them would have been described as being apostles. PERIOD.

See? I can do that too.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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#96
Living4Him in post #59 made it very clear. Don't you agree that Paul was referring to Matthias as one of the 12 and not himself?
This is irrelevant. Matthias did not receive the GC. Or there would have been mention in Scripture.

And also your are not correct that Matthias is not part of the Great Commission because Jesus probably said it more than once when he was seen by various groups. Mark 16:15-20.
Speculation will get you nowhere.

In addition as I stated in a previous post the names on the foundation are not given in Rev because the symbolism is more important that of the teaching and preaching of the Apostles of which we all have a part to play as we continue the mission. Won't you be surprised when you see my name one one of the bricks on that building?
I don't speculate or spiritualize. I read the words of Scripture.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#97
I've shown where Paul received the GC the SAME WAY the 11 did. Matthias didn't. Nor any others. Only 12 men received the GC face to face.
More error.

Let's try this again.

Luke 24

[33] And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, AND THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM,
[34] Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
[35] And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
[36] And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
[37] But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
[38] And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
[40] And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
[41] And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
[42] And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
[43] And he took it, and did eat before them.
[44] And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
[46] And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
[47] And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
[48] And ye are witnesses of these things.
[49] And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
[50] And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
[51] And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

As we just read, Jesus appeared not only unto "the eleven" (Judas was already dead at this time), but also unto "THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM" (vs. 33), and nowhere in the remaining narrative did these "THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM" depart.

If you believe that they did, then show us where it says so in scripture.

Good luck with that.

In fact, these "THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM" were among those whom JESUS COMMISSIONED "that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" (vs. 47) while telling them "and ye are witnesses of these things" (vs. 48).

Not only this, but he then told "the eleven, AND THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM" (vs. 33) to "tarry...in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high".

In other words, there were a lot more people than just "the eleven" present when Jesus gave THE GREAT COMMISSION, AND we should also expect to see more than just "the eleven" tarrying in the city of Jerusalem as a result, AND WE WILL in just a moment.

This same Luke who wrote this gospel account also wrote the book of Acts, where we read:

Acts chapter 1

[1] The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
[2] Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
[3] To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
[4] And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
[5] For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
[6] When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
[12] Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
[13] And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
[14] These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
[15] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
[16] Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
[17] For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
[18] Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
[19] And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
[20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
[21] Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
[22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
[23] And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
[24] And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
[25] That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
[26] And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Do I even need to explain what we just read?

Again, here we see the very same "eleven, AND THEM THAT WERE WITH THEM" (Luke 24:33) tarrying in Jerusalem, JUST AS JESUS HAD INSTRUCTED THEM TO (Luke 24:49), and "THE NUMBER OF NAMES TOGETHER WERE ABOUT AN HUNDRED AND TWENTY" (vs. 15), AND MATTHIAS WAS ONE OF THEM.

Got it?

In fact, as has already been pointed out to you, Matthias was with "the eleven", according to Peter who was one of "the eleven", "ALL THE TIME THAT THE LORD JESUS WENT IN AND OUT AMONG US, BEGINNING WITH THE BAPTISM OF JOHN, UNTO THAT SAME DAY THAT HE WAS TAKEN UP FROM US" (vss. 21-22), AND "THAT SAME DAY THAT HE WAS TAKEN UP FROM US" WAS THE DAY IN WHICH HE GAVE THEM, MATTHIAS INCLUDED, THE GREAT COMMISSION.

Seriously, you're in error.

We all make mistakes.

Just admit it, and all will be fine.

Between you and God, and between you and others.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#98
This is irrelevant. Matthias did not receive the GC. Or there would have been mention in Scripture.


Speculation will get you nowhere.


I don't speculate or spiritualize. I read the words of Scripture.
I am not hear to argue with people. This particular subject has been answered.

Everyone knows we are called to fulfill the Great Commission until Jesus comes again. It is Christianity 101 and I don't think anyone is seriously confused about it so I will not waste my time arguing with anyone about it. It is just not an actual real life item of confusion for the church today.
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
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#99
Some people say there's only 12 apostles
Some people say the gifts ended with the apostles.
Some people say this, and that.

Most people, however, listen to some people all the time because they're too lazy to dig it out for themselves, yet totally zealous to argue about what they don't know.

Is ignorance bliss? you decide... or keep arguing.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
Some people say there's only 12 apostles
Some people say the gifts ended with the apostles.
Some people say this, and that.

Most people, however, listen to some people all the time because they're too lazy to dig it out for themselves, yet totally zealous to argue about what they don't know.

Is ignorance bliss? you decide... or keep arguing.
If ignorance truly was bliss, then many of the posts on this forum would be like heaven on earth.

Seriously, many posters here should just shut up, get on their knees before God, and stay there until they actually know something.

Don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.