Body Of CHRIST "Does NOT" Go To Heaven?

[presidente]

The 5 foolish went into the trib.

They all died.

Unless the bible is incorrect that all take the mark.

Where is the on-ramp to your highway of circular reasoning here?

What I am looking for is some verse or passages that actually teaches a pre-trib rapture. I look at Revelation, and there is no mention of the church being raptured before all this stuff happens.

And there is plenty of strong evidence for believing we are waiting for one return of Jesus. For example, the church is present in II Thessalonians 1 to receive rest when Christ returns executing vengence on them that know not God when He returns to be glorified in the saints. How can that be spun into pre-trib? I have heard people just assume pre-trib and try to interpret II Thessalonians 2 through that rubric, but there is nothing internal in the text that supports it.

in fact, if we look at I Thessalonians 4, the church is raptured at our Lord Jesus coming, 'parousia'. In II Thessalonians 2, that wicked is destroyed at the brightness of Jesus' parousia.

If the church is going to be here when the man of sin is destroyed, how in the world can that fit with a pre-trib rapture scenario.

in Matthew 24, the sign of the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven and the gathering together of the elect happens AFTER the great tribulation. Why should I try to reinterpret the verse to fit with some kind of pre-trib scenario when no pre-trib rapture shows up in the sequence of events there? There is no mention of a rapture there before the great tribulation of those days. Where is the scripture that teaches it?

So why should I believe in pre-trib when there is no passage that teaches it, and direct evidence against the idea-- evidence like the church being here when Jesus gets back, both the church being resurrected and raptured at the coming of the Lord and also that wicked being destroyed at the brightness of His coming?

Can you show me the passage that shows a pre-trib rapture happening before Jesus comes back, Jesus coming back twice, or anything that could be rightlyi construed as a passage that actually teaches pre-trib?

 

[Absolutely]

Where is the on-ramp to your highway of circular reasoning here?

What I am looking for is some verse or passages that actually teaches a pre-trib rapture. I look at Revelation, and there is no mention of the church being raptured before all this stuff happens.

And there is plenty of strong evidence for believing we are waiting for one return of Jesus. For example, the church is present in II Thessalonians 1 to receive rest when Christ returns executing vengence on them that know not God when He returns to be glorified in the saints. How can that be spun into pre-trib? I have heard people just assume pre-trib and try to interpret II Thessalonians 2 through that rubric, but there is nothing internal in the text that supports it.

in fact, if we look at I Thessalonians 4, the church is raptured at our Lord Jesus coming, 'parousia'. In II Thessalonians 2, that wicked is destroyed at the brightness of Jesus' parousia.

If the church is going to be here when the man of sin is destroyed, how in the world can that fit with a pre-trib rapture scenario.

in Matthew 24, the sign of the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven and the gathering together of the elect happens AFTER the great tribulation. Why should I try to reinterpret the verse to fit with some kind of pre-trib scenario when no pre-trib rapture shows up in the sequence of events there? There is no mention of a rapture there before the great tribulation of those days. Where is the scripture that teaches it?

So why should I believe in pre-trib when there is no passage that teaches it, and direct evidence against the idea-- evidence like the church being here when Jesus gets back, both the church being resurrected and raptured at the coming of the Lord and also that wicked being destroyed at the brightness of His coming?

Can you show me the passage that shows a pre-trib rapture happening before Jesus comes back, Jesus coming back twice, or anything that could be rightlyi construed as a passage that actually teaches pre-trib?

Acts 1
mat 24
Mat 25
Rev 19
Lot
Noah
The 2 escape verses.

 

[Absolutely]

Nice to see a peaceful discussion. So many different ideas out there. When you want the real answer, just come to papa Oyster.

Yes.
I do believe that.

 

[Absolutely]

"""So why should I believe in pre-trib when there is no passage that teaches it, and direct evidence against the idea-- evidence like"""

All the rapture verses are pretrib.
The second coming on white horses is after the trib/ wrath and is with the saints.

Postrib rapture model is poorly thought out.

Has no evidence.

The evidence is with the pretrib rapture.
Solid and easily defended.

 

[throughfaith]

The parable of the Ten Virgins is a fine picture of the Rapture and the Wedding. Those who are ready go to a Marriage Feast, not a Tribulation. We, the Church, are not appointed to wrath.

Matthew
25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 And five of them were wise, and five [were] foolish.
25:3 They that [were] foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, [Not so]; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

1 Thessalonians
5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.
5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1. Those involved are virgins (plural), not “a virgin.” 2. They go to marry no one; they go to MEET Someone. 3. They go to meet Someone who is already married (Luke 12:36). 4. All had oil to start with, and some lost it (vss. 4, 7–8). 5. If oil is a type of the HOLY SPIRIT, works are involved in obtaining a fresh supply of the Holy Spirit (vss. 8–9). 6. In 2 Kings 4:7 (where a transaction similiar to this one takes place), the entire setting is JEWISH. 7. There is no “twinkling of an eye” or “in a moment” or anything else involved in the passage. 8. It is the “Son of man” coming as a married bridegroom (vs. 13), NOT “the Son of God” coming for His bride! Things different are not equal.

1. “Virgins” (plural) are found in the Tribulation, not the Church Age (Rev. 14:1–6). 2. “The VIRGIN bride” of Christ (2 Cor. 11:1–3) is never called “virgins” anywhere, and is always denominated one chaste virgin, in distinction from “virgins” (Song of Sol. 6:8–9, Psa. 45:13–14). 3. The “virgins” of the Tribulation follow the bride (Psa. 45:13–14), and they follow here at the end of the Tribulation (Matt. 24:29–31, Psa. 50:3–5). 4. There IS an element of WORKS connected with their salvation. (See comments on passages in Matt. 24:13, 15–20; Rev. 14:12.) 5. Some of the “virgins” can lose it and DO (see comments under Matt. 24:47–51). Consequently, Hebrews 9:28 is fair warning that there will be a split-rapture at the end of the Tribulation. 6. Since Old Testament times return (law and all!) when the Body of Christ leaves (see comments under Matt. 24:45–51), there is an element of WORKS connected with salvation (Rom. 10:5), and David fully realized that these works were connected with losing the Holy Spirit! (Psa. 51:11).



But I do believe in a pre trib rapture .

 

[presidente]

Acts 1
mat 24
Mat 25
Rev 19
Lot
Noah
The 2 escape verses.

Have you changed your tune, so you decided post references to these anti-pretrib references? Matthew 24 has no reference to a pre-trib rapture during the pre-trib rapture and the sign of the Son of Man coming set after the tribulation.

 

[peldom10]

Nice to see a peaceful discussion. So many different ideas out there. When you want the real answer, just come to papa Oyster.

Often ideas and scripture clashes. We must stay with scriptures which is controlling.

 

[Absolutely]

1. Those involved are virgins (plural), not “a virgin.” 2. They go to marry no one; they go to MEET Someone. 3. They go to meet Someone who is already married (Luke 12:36). 4. All had oil to start with, and some lost it (vss. 4, 7–8). 5. If oil is a type of the HOLY SPIRIT, works are involved in obtaining a fresh supply of the Holy Spirit (vss. 8–9). 6. In 2 Kings 4:7 (where a transaction similiar to this one takes place), the entire setting is JEWISH. 7. There is no “twinkling of an eye” or “in a moment” or anything else involved in the passage. 8. It is the “Son of man” coming as a married bridegroom (vs. 13), NOT “the Son of God” coming for His bride! Things different are not equal.

1. “Virgins” (plural) are found in the Tribulation, not the Church Age (Rev. 14:1–6). 2. “The VIRGIN bride” of Christ (2 Cor. 11:1–3) is never called “virgins” anywhere, and is always denominated one chaste virgin, in distinction from “virgins” (Song of Sol. 6:8–9, Psa. 45:13–14). 3. The “virgins” of the Tribulation follow the bride (Psa. 45:13–14), and they follow here at the end of the Tribulation (Matt. 24:29–31, Psa. 50:3–5). 4. There IS an element of WORKS connected with their salvation. (See comments on passages in Matt. 24:13, 15–20; Rev. 14:12.) 5. Some of the “virgins” can lose it and DO (see comments under Matt. 24:47–51). Consequently, Hebrews 9:28 is fair warning that there will be a split-rapture at the end of the Tribulation. 6. Since Old Testament times return (law and all!) when the Body of Christ leaves (see comments under Matt. 24:45–51), there is an element of WORKS connected with salvation (Rom. 10:5), and David fully realized that these works were connected with losing the Holy Spirit! (Psa. 51:11).



But I do believe in a pre trib rapture .

That's like saying " one new man" is never talking about the church because the church actually means " assembly of men"

Or believing only one man/ woman will marry Jesus since the bride can not possibly be "many virgins"

 

[Absolutely]

Have you changed your tune, so you decided post references to these anti-pretrib references? Matthew 24 has no reference to a pre-trib rapture during the pre-trib rapture and the sign of the Son of Man coming set after the tribulation.

reread it.
It says " before the flood"

That is the stage and CONTEXT used in Noah , watching and being ready, and the one taken/ left.
Then in the same breath Jesus VIVIDLY illustrates the rapture.
Not even a shread of Postrib in any of those three dynamics.

No possible rapture Postrib.

You guys have such an impossible task.

Pretrib rapture so vividly depicted in mat 24 and 25, and you guys have made a decision to reframe Gods word.
Now that you are shown, you are responsible for your reframing of Gods word.

Here is your way out;

I can give you the final nail into the Postrib supposed rapture coffin;

Did Paul lie that the dead in Christ rise first?

Because you have the dead in Christ rising after Jesus appears on a cloud gathering his covenant people from the earth DURING THE GREAT TRIB .( rev 14)

Postrib rapture PROVEN HANDS DOWN IMPOSSIBLE.

Game
Set
Match.

 

[Absolutely]

"""3. They go to meet Someone who is already married (Luke 12:36). 4. All had oil to start with, and some lost it (vss. 4, 7–8). 5. If oil is a type of the HOLY SPIRIT, works are involved in obtaining a fresh supply of the Holy Spirit (vss. 8–9). 6. In 2 Kings 4:7 (where a transaction similiar to this one takes place), the entire setting is JEWISH. 7. There is no “twinkling of an eye” or “in a moment” or anything else involved in the passage. 8. It is the “Son of man” coming as a married bridegroom (vs. 13), NOT “the Son of God” coming for His bride! Things different are not equal"""

REALLY?
So Jesus is either a lion or a lamb.
Things different can not be the same.

Concerning The Holy Spirit.
In most instances in acts The Holy Spirit was received through the laying on of hands.
(Oil transferred from another vessel)

Hmmmmm...... that is exactly what the foolish requested.

Now why did you leave out the groom being Jesus and Jesus taking his bride into the marriage chamber?

 

[Absolutely]

"""1. “Virgins” (plural) are found in the Tribulation, not the Church Age (Rev. 14:1–6). 2. “The VIRGIN bride” of Christ (2 Cor. 11:1–3) is never called “virgins”"""

That is the 144k JEWS.

A total different dynamic.

I see what you are doing.
You are trying to make a gathering at the end if the trib.

You have been told the one Taken/ left is at the end of the GT correct?

So you are transposing the 10 virgin parable onto that dynamic correct?

 

[throughfaith]

That's like saying " one new man" is never talking about the church because the church actually means " assembly of men"

Or believing only one man/ woman will marry Jesus since the bride can not possibly be "many virgins"

That's not the only clue .

 

[presidente]

reread it.
It says " before the flood"

That is the stage and CONTEXT used in Noah , watching and being ready, and the one taken/ left.
Then in the same breath Jesus VIVIDLY illustrates the rapture.
Not even a shread of Postrib in any of those three dynamics.

No possible rapture Postrib.

Let us look at what the passage says, looking at some key verses.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
...

This is where we get the phrase 'great tribulation.'

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So here we see that they shall see the 'coming of the Son of Man AFTER the tribulation.


And the verses you are referencing about Noah are set AFTER the tribulation because it associates that with the coming of the Son of Man.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So again, how can you argue for a pre-trib rapture, when the coming of the Son of man, which is compared to the flood, comes AFTER THE TRIBULATION according to a straightforward clear reading of the passage?

No shred of evidence for post-trib? The stuff you reference happens AFTER THE TRIBULATION! Read the passage. It is directly stated.

II Thessalonians 2 also speaks of our gathering together unto Christ. Compare with 'gather together His elect' in verse 31. And there is no reason to posit this must refer exclusively to believing Israel, with whom Gentile believers are co-hears, based on the idea that the church will be gone, because the passage clearly sets these things after the 'great tribulation.'

You guys have such an impossible task.

Pretrib rapture so vividly depicted in mat 24 and 25, and you guys have made a decision to reframe Gods word.
Now that you are shown, you are responsible for your reframing of Gods word.

Look up the passage in the sequence of events and show us where the passage teaches a pre-trib rapture years before the verses I quoted above.

Here is your way out;

I can give you the final nail into the Postrib supposed rapture coffin;

Did Paul lie that the dead in Christ rise first?

Because you have the dead in Christ rising after Jesus appears on a cloud gathering his covenant people from the earth DURING THE GREAT TRIB .( rev 14)

What are you trying to say? We are coming up on nearly 2000 years since Christ rose from the dead. The even you refer to does not happen in the eschatological future. What are you trying to say?

 

[Absolutely]

"""What are you trying to say? We are coming up on nearly 2000 years since Christ rose from the dead. The even you refer to does not happen in the eschatological future. What are you trying to say?"""



Rev 14 is during the great tribulation.

 

[Absolutely]

That's not the only clue .

Addressed none the less

 

[presidente]

"""What are you trying to say? We are coming up on nearly 2000 years since Christ rose from the dead. The even you refer to does not happen in the eschatological future. What are you trying to say?"""



Rev 14 is during the great tribulation.

So what? How does that prove your point?

In this chapter, we see there are some people who serve the Lamb after the tribulation.

I think you are assume we know your assumptions when you interpret this chapter. I am assuming you think of the book of Revelation as sequential events, not different passages telling the same story in different ways, in places. But I could be wrong about that.

I also see a pattern in your method of interpretation. I show you clear direct statements in Matthew 24 that show the 'coming of the Son of Man' and the gathering taking place ___after___ the tribulation. You respond with a reference to Noah. Apparently, you have some allegorical interpretation in your mind that is pre-trib and think that trumps a direct interpretation of the passage.

You also refer to apocalyptic passages, which obviously can be interpreted numerous ways, and indeed are depending on the eschatological system of the one doing the interpreting, after I show you direct statements of scripture in non-allegorical genres, for example in Paul's epistles to the Thessalonians.

It would seem your 'literalist' interpretation system relies heavily on allegorical interpretation of apocalyptic literature while dodging and ignore direct didactic teaching of certain passages of scripture.

 

[Absolutely]

So what? How does that prove your point?

In this chapter, we see there are some people who serve the Lamb after the tribulation.

I think you are assume we know your assumptions when you interpret this chapter. I am assuming you think of the book of Revelation as sequential events, not different passages telling the same story in different ways, in places. But I could be wrong about that.

I also see a pattern in your method of interpretation. I show you clear direct statements in Matthew 24 that show the 'coming of the Son of Man' and the gathering taking place ___after___ the tribulation. You respond with a reference to Noah. Apparently, you have some allegorical interpretation in your mind that is pre-trib and think that trumps a direct interpretation of the passage.

You also refer to apocalyptic passages, which obviously can be interpreted numerous ways, and indeed are depending on the eschatological system of the one doing the interpreting, after I show you direct statements of scripture in non-allegorical genres, for example in Paul's epistles to the Thessalonians.

It would seem your 'literalist' interpretation system relies heavily on allegorical interpretation of apocalyptic literature while dodging and ignore direct didactic teaching of certain passages of scripture.

No assumptions

We know the dead in Christ are resurrected and taken to heaven immediately.

We know they precede the living.

We know Postrib s have that exactly backwards.

Rev 14 has a gathering of ripe fruit during the trib ( hello...you refute that....you say the rapture/ resurrection is after rev 14)

All facts....no assumptions.

I stand on Gods word while you futilely attempt to say I did not make you go against the bible.

That's what i showcase...you guys going against the bible.

I have such an easy job.

 

[Absolutely]

"""I also see a pattern in your method of interpretation. I show you clear direct statements in Matthew 24 that show the 'coming of the Son of Man' and the gathering taking place ___after___ the tribulation. You respond with a reference to Noah. Apparently, you have some allegorical interpretation in your mind that is pre-trib and think that trumps a direct interpretation of the passage"""

Again lets look at it. Forget what you supposedly know and re read it.

Take a good look at the word " before"

Jesus has just framed " WHEN"

"BEFORE" MEANS "WHEN".

There is NOTHING there " AFTER" With Noah or

YOU SAY ..." NOAH Was delivered AFTER the flood.
You have Noah leaving earth AFTER the flood.

Jesus, on the other hand, has both Noah and Lot leaving BEFORE THE Judgement.

Of course there is a gathering in rev 19 IN HEAVEN. They are gathered to ride white horses. NEAR THE END of the trib.
Re read mat 24.
ANGELS GATHER....not Jesus
FROM HEAVEN....not earth.

There is zero ANYWHERE placing the rapture Postrib
ZERO.

 

[Absolutely]

"""It would seem your 'literalist' interpretation system relies heavily on allegorical interpretation of apocalyptic literature while dodging and ignore direct didactic teaching of certain passages of scripture.""""

Show me specifically.

Remember.... Postribs usually invoke extra biblical information.

 

[Absolutely]

reread it.
It says " before the flood"

That is the stage and CONTEXT used in Noah , watching and being ready, and the one taken/ left.
Then in the same breath Jesus VIVIDLY illustrates the rapture.
Not even a shread of Postrib in any of those three dynamics.

No possible rapture Postrib.

You guys have such an impossible task.

Pretrib rapture so vividly depicted in mat 24 and 25, and you guys have made a decision to reframe Gods word.
Now that you are shown, you are responsible for your reframing of Gods word.

Here is your way out;

I can give you the final nail into the Postrib supposed rapture coffin;

Did Paul lie that the dead in Christ rise first?

Because you have the dead in Christ rising after Jesus appears on a cloud gathering his covenant people from the earth DURING THE GREAT TRIB .( rev 14)

Postrib rapture PROVEN HANDS DOWN IMPOSSIBLE.

Game
Set
Match.

^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^