Are WOMEN Pastors Biblical??

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
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Angela, you studyed greec. And you can explain it in a good way.
But you are not free from putting your view into the text.
If you read 1.tim 3, 1-5, and also Titus 1,5-9 then you cant deney that the text adressed man/male. Ore you must say that ALL bible translations are wrong.
The terms in 1 Timothy 3 are gender-neutral with the sole exception of "husband". The problem is as much one of closed-mindedness with regard to gendered language as it is with the translations being incorrect.

About Phoebe in Romans 16,1 is nothing said in the text what her Service im the church was. To say she was leader ore deaconess is a specualation.
About 1. Tim 3, 11, can meant a deaconess ore the wife of the deacon.
1. TIM 3,8-10 and 12-13 adresses a male, no female.
There is no need for speculation regarding Phoebe's role. Paul called her a deacon, using the same word that he used in the qualifications for deacons.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
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Well, I do believe the word of God shows us women will be used in the ministry, however the word of God as a normative God has called and used men 99.9 percent of the time.

Adam was created first
Abraham was called
Moses was chosen,
Joshua took over
all the Writing prophets were men
All the apostles were men.
The Priest of the home is a man

God is going to judge the man Harder than the women Because it was men who were to not allow Damdible snakes in the garden but he wimped out and blamed it on the women Oh Yes God is going to hold every man accountable for the children they fathered, the wives they left, the divorces they had and the call they failed to do. YEP, men are responsible completely. On that day they will wish they were women LOL.
But you are using circular training. Just because bad translations have led to women not being accepted as pastors, the human made rules of women not being pastors, probably stopped many woman from answering the call. If you are told your whole life that only men can be deacons or pastors, even a call from God might be met with uncertainty, by many women. Esp. if the poor woman is getting hounded with all kinds of verses that do NOT say only men, or only he!

I know, because God called me in the early 1990's to go to Regent College, Vancouver. I didn't even tell my husband, but it was heavy in my heart. I believed the lie that women can't be pastors. I had 4 children, only 1 old enough to take care of himself. I was working teaching music in elementary schools, a job I loved!

So, I rationalized it away. I saw my pastor fawn over these young man, and he started mentoring them to be pastors. However, the denomination required an undergrad degree, which none of them had. So add 4 years to 3 in seminary. 7 years of trying to make ends meet. Gradually the men dropped out of the church. The one young man he was really pressing, found a job related to music in a church far away, and he too, quit our church. Then there was me! When he was preaching a call to all these men, I felt the call of God so strongly. It was only 3 hours from where I lived, but 2/3rds was online. When I asked my pastor if I could apply for seminary, the only question he asked me was whether I thought I was called to be a pastor. I said no, I just had a call, not a call to do a certain tile. I imagine if I had answered in the affirmative, he would have not signed my church papers to be admitted. One more woman not in ministry.

So I applied, and I met many woman who were pastors and even an Anglican priest (a woman). We had long discussions on being called as women. It gave me the support I needed, and the same for others. I had a job offer when I moved to BC to be a chaplain, which I would have loved! But my meds failed, it took about 4 years to replace them. I was bed bound, so I didn't apply. God continued to lead me. One day, I got an email from my Greek teacher, saying he was teaching 2nd year seminary Greek online, including weekly Zoom meetings to discuss the material we had translated. It was a great course. I heard about needing German. I had a couple of years of German in high school. There were a lot of grammatical similarities between German and Greek, and I picked up the language well enough to qualify for my next step, watch TV and read the Bible. I spoke French fluently, from high school French, and working with my grandmere, who was from France. I applied for a PhD program and was accepted, and I get accommodations for my health.

I close with asking, how many women did I meet in 30 years who had experienced a call to lead God's people, but stuffed it down, because women can't be pastors? Our assistant pastor is a young woman, and she does a fantastic job. She is taking one course at a time, towards her MDiv. And learning lots about ministry from the job.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Bible had been correctly translated, instead of the mess the KJV committee made of these verses. How many more women would have accepted the call to further the Kingdom of God? Would 1/2 of our pastors be women? Or maybe more, or less? I don't even believe your 99% estimate of men occupied pastoral positions. I know many women pastors. And most of them women who brought down the barriers and blocks from them being obedient to God. Even if it was 30% of women were pastors, they still would be valid pastors, and someone little girls look up to.

I'm no feminist anymore, but the kingdom of God needs everyone working, and not putting women down because they have never had a hand up! Shows you that women are ready to fight for the gospel, and not just babysit in the nursery, or organize pot lucks! What a waste of 51% of church members!
 
Apr 26, 2021
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I'm a woman and not offended by the prohibition in church. We (women) are an earthly sign or picture of mankind and men are an earthly sign or picture of Jesus, the man.

No one presumes to teach the Lord Jesus doctrine. No one presumes to teach spiritual truths to God. Yet, that is exactly the appearance we give as a woman, depicting mankind, teaching doctrine to men, depicting the Lord Jesus, in church in an official role in clergy.

Paul says it better than me:

1 Corinthians 14:36 What? Came the word of God out from you? Or came it unto you only?

The word of God came from God to man, not the other way around. This verse makes sense to me. It's not about inequity, it's more about keeping up appearances.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
2,957
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Angela, you studyed greec. And you can explain it in a good way.
But you are not free from putting your view into the text.
If you read 1.tim 3, 1-5, and also Titus 1,5-9 then you cant deney that the text adressed man/male. Ore you must say that ALL bible translations are wrong.

About Phoebe in Romans 16,1 is nothing said in the text what her Service im the church was. To say she was leader ore deaconess is a specualation.
About 1. Tim 3, 11, can meant a deaconess ore the wife of the deacon.
1. TIM 3,8-10 and 12-13 adresses a male, no female.
Did you read my post about 1 Tim 3:1-11 and how other than a "husband must not be a polygamist," the Greek, the language the New Testament was written in, is NOT written to men, but purposely written in language that is inclusive. You are probably hearing the words in your head "male" or "man" wrongly, because that is what you learned years ago. Because Greek simply does NOT say men in this passage.

I can rattle off the KJV Lord's prayer in seconds, but knowing that their are translational issues, I don't. I translated the Lord's prayer into English from Greek, and the words are correct, even if I have to say it slower, because I didn't say it in school daily for 9 years, just the KJV. It is not automatic like KJV, because I learned it as a child, and repeated it millions of times!

Try and open your closed mind. You have always been respectful to me, and been a good friend. I don't want to get into a fight with you. But the truth is, there are no male nouns or pronouns in that passage. And it's hard to translate into English when most of our nouns and pronouns are gendered. We don't even have "Man" as a a non gendered word like you do in German.

I would challenge you to take some Greek courses. Greek is very similar to German, using cases for nouns/pronouns and adjectives. Right now, it's hard to understand a language with totally different letters. But if you stick to it, I would hope we could discuss it on even grounds. As it is, a lot of men are quoting Bibles that have so many added gender words, especially "men or male", which are just not there in any of the Greek texts! Let me know when we can both discuss the Greek, without a gender bias. I would love to explain this again, and have you see your mistake! No words like Men or he in this passage! No, I am not reading into the text at all. I am reading the words that are there. If anyone is putting their spin on this, it is men who don't want women to be preachers, teachers or leaders in Church! And they accomplish this by bad translations, which reaffirm their bias, and men don't care as long as no woman is ahead of him! That's a word called misogyny! Jesus was never a misogynist, he must be disappointed to see so many legalistic men, using Bibles that are translated wrong to support their untenable theories!
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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It seems to me that you are closing your eyes and ears. So you cant see and hear.
Why I should repeat and repeat and repeat?
Be like Paul and walk away. In fact, if you think that Angela is wrong and unwilling . . . walk away. We're commanded to do so.

The problem is . . . I don't think that she's wrong. Therefore, I'd be listening to her on the street . . . and especially within the church building. :)
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
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The terms in 1 Timothy 3 are gender-neutral with the sole exception of "husband". The problem is as much one of closed-mindedness with regard to gendered language as it is with the translations being incorrect.


There is no need for speculation regarding Phoebe's role. Paul called her a deacon, using the same word that he used in the qualifications for deacons.
Dino, what then makes you shure that 1. Tim 3, 1-5 and Titus 1, 5-9 is adressed to woman? Please from the text.
I want try to understand why you come to this view.
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
1,680
705
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Be like Paul and walk away. In fact, if you think that Angela is wrong and unwilling . . . walk away. We're commanded to do so.

The problem is . . . I don't think that she's wrong. Therefore, I'd be listening to her on the street . . . and especially within the church building. :)
Thanks for your adwise !
 

Aidan1

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2021
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705
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Did you read my post about 1 Tim 3:1-11 and how other than a "husband must not be a polygamist," the Greek, the language the New Testament was written in, is NOT written to men, but purposely written in language that is inclusive. You are probably hearing the words in your head "male" or "man" wrongly, because that is what you learned years ago. Because Greek simply does NOT say men in this passage.

I can rattle off the KJV Lord's prayer in seconds, but knowing that their are translational issues, I don't. I translated the Lord's prayer into English from Greek, and the words are correct, even if I have to say it slower, because I didn't say it in school daily for 9 years, just the KJV. It is not automatic like KJV, because I learned it as a child, and repeated it millions of times!

Try and open your closed mind. You have always been respectful to me, and been a good friend. I don't want to get into a fight with you. But the truth is, there are no male nouns or pronouns in that passage. And it's hard to translate into English when most of our nouns and pronouns are gendered. We don't even have "Man" as a a non gendered word like you do in German.

I would challenge you to take some Greek courses. Greek is very similar to German, using cases for nouns/pronouns and adjectives. Right now, it's hard to understand a language with totally different letters. But if you stick to it, I would hope we could discuss it on even grounds. As it is, a lot of men are quoting Bibles that have so many added gender words, especially "men or male", which are just not there in any of the Greek texts! Let me know when we can both discuss the Greek, without a gender bias. I would love to explain this again, and have you see your mistake! No words like Men or he in this passage! No, I am not reading into the text at all. I am reading the words that are there. If anyone is putting their spin on this, it is men who don't want women to be preachers, teachers or leaders in Church! And they accomplish this by bad translations, which reaffirm their bias, and men don't care as long as no woman is ahead of him! That's a word called misogyny! Jesus was never a misogynist, he must be disappointed to see so many legalistic men, using Bibles that are translated wrong to support their untenable theories!
Well, the post to Dino was my last to this thread. I dont want " fight " with you. For to study greec I have no time. But I will look little more into the text. Now I go to sleep
Have a blessed night.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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LOL!!!

YOU believe the Bible says women can be Pastors and now you think I am a JW.

Can you NOT be so personal and just be civil and discuss things without such diiscord. Listen......If you do not agree with what the Bible says THAT I POSTED FROM........Good! Go right ahead and do what you want to do.

I am not your judge and neither am I the enemy you are trying to make me out to be.

Good grief man.....does being shown your error Biblically always cause you to go off the rails like that???????
I was replying to your discourtesy to me
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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The terms in 1 Timothy 3 are gender-neutral with the sole exception of "husband". The problem is as much one of closed-mindedness with regard to gendered language as it is with the translations being incorrect.


There is no need for speculation regarding Phoebe's role. Paul called her a deacon, using the same word that he used in the qualifications for deacons.
Real Big Smiles! :giggle:
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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You may be correct. I did not mean to denigrate the AOG. I apologize for that.
I got caught up in someone else's posts promoting the AOG practice of women pastors and instead of ignoring them I responded.

No....I do not "now" belong to the AOG.

I was raised in and was part the AG until about 20 years of age.
Yes, I am very aware of the 16 foundational truths.
YES...I am aware of the by laws.
YES I can point to those memos on the subject matters you asked.

I am also aware of the practice of speaking in tongues as evidence of salvation and the unbiblical 2nd blessing teaching and the prosperity gospel.

But all of that is a completely different thread matter. If you want to start a thread on such things......please let me know and I will be more than happy to join in.
You assumed that I aspired to all these doctrines while in fact you did actually belong to them ... that's why I threw that JW jibe at you.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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Well, the post to Dino was my last to this thread. I dont want " fight " with you. For to study greec I have no time. But I will look little more into the text. Now I go to sleep
Have a blessed night.
A Liberal In Rebellion To Gods Truth Aidan, Its That Simple

2 Timothy 3:8-9KJV
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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Why don't YOU start that thread but until then, why not focus on this one?????

Why not leave your AOG propaganda fro the thread you start.
You are the one who went off topic, one of us actually did belong to the AOG and it wasn't me.

I've been addressing the question raised by those who say women are not permitted to speak or share in the ministry.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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Dino, what then makes you shure that 1. Tim 3, 1-5 and Titus 1, 5-9 is adressed to woman? Please from the text.
I want try to understand why you come to this view.
The poster defy's the very simple truth of God, it's that simple
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
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You are the one who went off topic, one of us actually did belong to the AOG and it wasn't me.

I've been addressing the question raised by those who say women are not permitted to speak or share in the ministry.
The topic has surrounded women speaking in the "Church", as you throw "Ministry" in as the disguise, it appears you don't like Gods clear words below, as Frank Sinatra sung, "I'll do it my way" :giggle:

Gods Words Are Very Clear On A Womans Role In The Church, And They Aren't Changing Anytime Soon.

Silence, Subjection, Obedience

(It Is A Shame For Women To Speak In The Church)

1 Timothy 2:11-14KJV
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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But you are using circular training. Just because bad translations have led to women not being accepted as pastors, the human made rules of women not being pastors, probably stopped many woman from answering the call. If you are told your whole life that only men can be deacons or pastors, even a call from God might be met with uncertainty, by many women. Esp. if the poor woman is getting hounded with all kinds of verses that do NOT say only men, or only he!

I know, because God called me in the early 1990's to go to Regent College, Vancouver. I didn't even tell my husband, but it was heavy in my heart. I believed the lie that women can't be pastors. I had 4 children, only 1 old enough to take care of himself. I was working teaching music in elementary schools, a job I loved!

So, I rationalized it away. I saw my pastor fawn over these young man, and he started mentoring them to be pastors. However, the denomination required an undergrad degree, which none of them had. So add 4 years to 3 in seminary. 7 years of trying to make ends meet. Gradually the men dropped out of the church. The one young man he was really pressing, found a job related to music in a church far away, and he too, quit our church. Then there was me! When he was preaching a call to all these men, I felt the call of God so strongly. It was only 3 hours from where I lived, but 2/3rds was online. When I asked my pastor if I could apply for seminary, the only question he asked me was whether I thought I was called to be a pastor. I said no, I just had a call, not a call to do a certain tile. I imagine if I had answered in the affirmative, he would have not signed my church papers to be admitted. One more woman not in ministry.

So I applied, and I met many woman who were pastors and even an Anglican priest (a woman). We had long discussions on being called as women. It gave me the support I needed, and the same for others. I had a job offer when I moved to BC to be a chaplain, which I would have loved! But my meds failed, it took about 4 years to replace them. I was bed bound, so I didn't apply. God continued to lead me. One day, I got an email from my Greek teacher, saying he was teaching 2nd year seminary Greek online, including weekly Zoom meetings to discuss the material we had translated. It was a great course. I heard about needing German. I had a couple of years of German in high school. There were a lot of grammatical similarities between German and Greek, and I picked up the language well enough to qualify for my next step, watch TV and read the Bible. I spoke French fluently, from high school French, and working with my grandmere, who was from France. I applied for a PhD program and was accepted, and I get accommodations for my health.

I close with asking, how many women did I meet in 30 years who had experienced a call to lead God's people, but stuffed it down, because women can't be pastors? Our assistant pastor is a young woman, and she does a fantastic job. She is taking one course at a time, towards her MDiv. And learning lots about ministry from the job.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Bible had been correctly translated, instead of the mess the KJV committee made of these verses. How many more women would have accepted the call to further the Kingdom of God? Would 1/2 of our pastors be women? Or maybe more, or less? I don't even believe your 99% estimate of men occupied pastoral positions. I know many women pastors. And most of them women who brought down the barriers and blocks from them being obedient to God. Even if it was 30% of women were pastors, they still would be valid pastors, and someone little girls look up to.

I'm no feminist anymore, but the kingdom of God needs everyone working, and not putting women down because they have never had a hand up! Shows you that women are ready to fight for the gospel, and not just babysit in the nursery, or organize pot lucks! What a waste of 51% of church members!
Now you can speak about bad translation all you want, but it is well-known as a normative God in all translations use men more than women. "circular training" what is that?

If you are going to see it as an emotional issue please do not make it a Biblical one. And I am not saying women can't minister what I am saying is the word of God in every translation has men called By God to lead the church and the people of God.

Even those women prophets were under a judge or ruler. Paul, Peter, John, James none of them took women on as Pastors. There are women who today do the work of a pastor, evangelist, prophet and yet do not take the title as I myself and a minister of a denomination but I am not the pastor but I could be but I am not. My calling is to be an evangelist/ teacher but I am working as a pastor's assistance or as an asst. Pastor or associate pastor. You do not need the title to fulfill your calling. If you were properly disciples you would know this.
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
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You assumed that I aspired to all these doctrines while in fact you did actually belong to them ... that's why I threw that JW jibe at you.
NO sir.....it was done out of ignorance.
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
885
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I was replying to your discourtesy to me
No you were not. You just got called out and now you are trying to cover your tracks.

Why not stop responding to my posts and we can then be best friends?????
 

Major

Active member
Dec 12, 2020
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Again, your translation is wrong. There are no word "man" or "he" in 1 Tim 3:1 in Greek. And by Koine Greek, I mean all 5 Koine Greek versions listed on Biblegateway.com!

"Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task." 1 Tim 3:1 NIV

"Πιστὸς ὁ λόγος· εἴ τις ἐπισκοπῆς ὀρέγεται, καλοῦ ἔργου ἐπιθυμεῖ." 1Tim 3:1 Koine Greek SBL

Man is άνδρες or sometimes του ανθρώποs although anthropos usually means humankind or humans, humanity these days, (because it includes men and women!) He, on the other hand, is αὐτός or autos.

You don't need to read Greek to see that andres, autos & not even anthropos, are found in this verse. More adding of words by the KJV and some modern versions?? I think so! It is totally gender neutral verse! So we need to throw this verse out as a proof text, because it adds "men" and "he," pwhere there are none of those words in Koine Greek! Let's look at from an interlinear perspective:

Πιστὸς ὁ λόγος·
Trustworthy [is] The Word

εἴ τις ἐπισκοπῆς
If anyone aspires to [being]

ὀρέγεται, καλοῦ ἔργου ἐπιθυμεῖ."
An overseer, a good work [is] desired!

So, no more nonsense about "men and he," being in that verse! Sorry, but sometimes just reading the Bible in English does NOT give you the right answer, but the wrong one!

Further, "of one wife, a husband" is obviously a specific instruction that men should not be polygamists!

"μιᾶς γυναικὸς ἄνδρα," 1 Tim 3:2
Of one woman a husband.

Or inverting it to make sense in English "A husband of one wife" as opposed to "a husband of many women/wives!"

Further, later in this chapter, this is found in verses 3:8-10:

Διακόνους (accusative masculine plural) which means "deacons." It is not male as in referring to men only, but rather it is masculine in gender. It can be used for a woman or a man!
(Compare Romans 16:1)

"Συνίστημι δὲ ὑμῖν Φοίβην τὴν ἀδελφὴν ἡμῶν, οὖσαν καὶ διάκονον τῆς ἐκκλησίας τῆς ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς," Romans 16:1 Koine Greek SBL

Here Φοίβην or Phoebe is an accusative noun (meaning it is an object), and women are referred to by the exact same word as in 1 Tim 3:1, which is διάκονον τῆς ἐκκλησίας or deacon of the church in Cenchrea. Plus, only a few words before she is called "a deacon of the church Cenchrea" Paul refers to her as "ἀδελφὴν ἡμῶν," Phoebe, our sister and also a deacon of the church in Cenchrea." Very specific, she a deacon at a specific church, while acknowledging she is "our sister" [in Christ].

Therefore, she is directly revealed as a deacon, or leader in a specific church, by Paul.

Finally, returning to 1 Tim 3:11-12,
Paul discusses what the necessary qualifications are for a woman deacon!

Paul used γυναῖκας in verses 8& 11, which could be women, but more likely is a referral to women who are deaconesses. Why do I think it is deaconesses? For one thing, Phoebe has been called a leader or deacon in Romans 16:1, but also 1 Tim 3:10 says, διακονείτωσαν, which is in the Imperative, (a command) to "Let them serve as deacons!" The men must allow the women who fulfill the other qualities (respectable, not double-tongued, not drinking wine too much, respectable, etc.) become deacons of the church. In other words, female leadership! Women in authority!

Again, if you want to discuss theology, take of couple of years each of seminary level Greek & Hebrew! English is simply inferior when it comes to making good doctrine! And when trying to prove a point that was added 1500 years after the earliest manuscripts were written!!
!st of all....I do not want you to get into any trouble with the copy rite laws, so I am asking you to post your sourse for your information that you copied and pasted.

In the 2nd place......I am not discussing theology at all. I simply posted the Scriptures and the reast comes from all of you who want to argue with God.

The in the 3nd place, No mam, you are the one who is incorrect. Allow me to show you................

King James Bible
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

New King James Version
This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work.

New American Standard Bible
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

NASB 1995
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

NASB 1977
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

Amplified Bible
This is a faithful and trustworthy saying: if any man [eagerly] seeks the office of overseer (bishop, superintendent), h edesires an excellent task.

Christian Standard Bible
This saying is trustworthy: “If anyone aspires to be an overseer, he desires a noble work.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
This saying is trustworthy: "If anyone aspires to be an overseer, he desires a noble work."

American Standard Version
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
This is a trustworthy saying, that if a man desires Eldership, he desires a good work.

Douay-Rheims Bible
A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

English Revised Version
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Good News Translation
This is a true saying: If a man is eager to be a church leader, he desires an excellent work.