50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
2 Thess 2:1-3 proves that the rapture occurs at the Second Coming. But many reject the obvious.

No it doesn't.

Of course it does.

That passage ^ proves "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" takes place prior to "the day of the Lord" [earthly] time-period (which itself commences with the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" per 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5... that is, well-before His Second Coming to the earth at His "MANIFESTATION" v.8b point in time [ / 'OPENLY MANIFEST' 1Tim6:15]).

It sure would be helpful if you just left off all those brackets, parenthesis, carats, quote marks, etc when you type a paragraph.

For me to be in error, someone is going to have to PROVE that the "coming of the Lord" in v.1 cannot be the Second Advent, OR "our being gathered to Him" cannot be the rapture, also in v.1. Or, both of them can't be what I believe they are.

And in v.3, the words "that DAY", cannot refer to the DofL. Because the words "that day" obviously refer to a specific DAY, not a lengthy time period, which is what the DofL is.

So, what is "the coming of the Lord" in v.1 and what is "our being gathered to Him" in v.1?

And prove it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Pardom me for interjecting here, I am just a humble Rookie to all this, so I maybe out of line here. Please forgive me if I am.

FreeGrace2, you state your understanding of 2Thess 2:1 strongly as fact, but you may have actually opened the door to it being only a possibility, in your use of the word AT in defense. I find that the small words in "Gods word" can make a big difference in understanding. The text of your reference, 2Thess 2:1, actually uses the word and to seperate the concepts of his 2nd coming and our being gathered to him. My understanding of the word and, is to connect two related but seperate items or ideas. In this case I am not sure this 100% (fact) implies they occur at the same time. If you are correct, wouldn´t it have been more accurately written as, our gathering to him at his 2nd coming, rather than and as it is written.. Interestingly, you used the word AT, in your statement of fact, because it makes the position indisputable or fact as you said. I find God´s use of words to be 100% precise and accurate. God says what he means, and means what he says so to speak. He used and, when he could have used at if that is what he meant. Now in the end you may be correct, but it would appear to me that there is another posibility of understanding, and that, unfortunately, would not make it fact. But this is just my humble opinion. Love and blessings to you.

Amen

Hense why we need to humble ourselves in these areas. and realize what we THINK may be true is not really fact. But our belief

 

[FreeGrace2]

Pardom me for interjecting here, I am just a humble Rookie to all this, so I maybe out of line here. Please forgive me if I am.

Welcome, new member. No forgiveness needed.

btw, I love your name! My motivation for studying the Word is because of Acts 17:11! I "check the Scriptures daily to see if what _____ said is true." You can fill in the blank regarding who says what.

FreeGrace2, you state your understanding of 2Thess 2:1 strongly as fact, but you may have actually opened the door to it being only a possibility, in your use of the word AT in defense.

OK, I'm listening.

I find that the small words in "Gods word" can make a big difference in understanding. The text of your reference, 2Thess 2:1, actually uses the word and to seperate the concepts of his 2nd coming and our being gathered to him. My understanding of the word and, is to connect two related but seperate items or ideas.

This is correct. And v.1 connects 2 related and separate items/ideas. iow, Christ's Second Advent AND the rapture are 2 separate events, but occur together, with the Second Advent first, followed by the rapture.

In this case I am not sure this 100% (fact) implies they occur at the same time. If you are correct, wouldn´t it have been more accurately written as, our gathering to him at his 2nd coming, rather than and as it is written..

I think what Paul wrote was very clear and shows the order; Second Advent and the rapture.

Interestingly, you used the word AT, in your statement of fact, because it makes the position indisputable or fact as you said. I find God´s use of words to be 100% precise and accurate.

Many scholars will say that there are a number of words in Hebrew and Greek that are not that precise for translation.

God says what he means, and means what he says so to speak. He used and, when he could have used at if that is what he meant. Now in the end you may be correct, but it would appear to me that there is another posibility of understanding, and that, unfortunately, would not make it fact. But this is just my humble opinion. Love and blessings to you.

{2 Thess 2:1 very clearly places the gathering/rapture AT the Second Advent.}

Would it have been more palatable if I had said the rapture occurs WITH the Second Advent?

For me, the Second Advent is when Christ returns to earth. His second coming. And v.1 indicates that the gathering, or rapture is connected to that event.

How'd I do?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Amen

Hense why we need to humble ourselves in these areas. and realize what we THINK may be true is not really fact. But our belief

The wording of 2 Thess 2:1-3 are very clear and straightforward. They don't take "scrutiny" to understand.

If "the coming of our Lord" doesn't refer to the Second Advent, then what does it refer to?

And if "our being gathered to Him doesn't refer to the rapture, then what does it refer to?

Remember, I want to be correct just as much as you do.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And in v.3, the words "that DAY", cannot refer to the DofL. Because the words "that day" obviously refer to a specific DAY, not a lengthy time period, which is what the DofL is.

"3 that day [italics] will not be present if not shall have come the departure *FIRST*..." i.e. the event verse 1 had just spoken of...


"3 that day [the COMMENCING of the TIME-PERIOD of v.2] will NOT be present [as the false conveyors said "IS PRESENT" PERFECT indicative] if not shall have come..." ONE THING *FIRST*...




V.2 is Paul telling them not to be convinced by anyone saying "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]"...

It wasn't.

And Paul is telling WHY it is NOT SO "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]".

Because ONE THING must take place *FIRST*...

... "AND the man of sin be revealed..."


Once he is "revealed," the day of the Lord WILL INDEED BE PRESENT (see 1Th5:2-3 the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" parallel Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]")

So, what is "the coming of the Lord" in v.1 and what is "our being gathered to Him" in v.1?

V.1 is entirely and solely our Rapture event--that point in time. It takes place "IN THE AIR"--"the meeting OF THE LORD in the air."


It is what must come *first* before "the day of the Lord" IS [WILL BE] "PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth, at the START of the Trib yrs.



Paul is saying, "believe US," what WE taught you (v.15), don't believe THEM (v.2).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Because ONE THING must take place *FIRST*...

... "AND the man of sin be revealed..."

To be clear, these ^ are TWO DISTINCT things... not the SAME thing.




"3 that day [the DOTL from v.2!] will NOT be present, if not shall have come THE departure [the event @ one point in time from v.1] *FIRST* and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..."



When he's "revealed," that will be "the DOTL" (present and commencing to unfold upon the earth).

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Paul repeats the SEQUENCE 3x in 2Th2: Color-coded chart POST--page 15--Post #290 (different thread):

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4095977







2Th2 explanation POST--page 15 - Post #289 (different thread from this present thread):

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4095956

 

[cv5]

Right. And that's basically also what the word in 2Th2:8b is ALSO expressing... G2015 means "conspicuous appearing; appearing, manifestation, glorious display"...

... but in v.1, it's not speaking of THAT; rather, is speaking of "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (UP THERE, "IN THE AIR,"... where NO ONE ELSE will be "IN HIS PRESENCE" except US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY, at that point... of whom "RAPTURE" SOLELY pertains!)




[V.1 and v.8b have a DURATION OF TIME between them!!!]

https://biblehub.com/greek/1997.htm

The contrast is stark and unequivocal...

 

[ewq1938]

But are we not children of the Light ?
Is Jesus not talking about those who are in darkness ?

Correct on both.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Remember, I want to be correct just as much as you do.

Precious friend, AWESOME idea. Work on it together? Please let me know
which part you wish to begin with...:

Great GRACE Departure! {aka The Rapture!}​

"Outline!":
"Do ALL things Decently And In ORDER!!" (1 Corinthians 14 : 40 KJB!)

(1A) PEACE With God! "Receiving" The Holy Spirit For "understanding"?
(1B) 1A "E - X - P - A - N - D - E - D" FOR "Clarification"?

(2a) Which BIBLE: KJB! or, Any "newer modern version" will suffice?
(2b) KJB And God's Excellent "study" Rules!?

(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - "Brief" Introduction...
(3b) THREE "Ages" Rightly Divided! = God's TIMELINES?

(4) Which "Gospel!" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?

(5) GREAT Tribulation? or, *tribulations/GREAT GRACE Departure!?*

(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure "Expectations!"?

(7) God's HEAVENLY UPlook For HIS Body!?

(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking for WHOM! or, "signs"?

(9) He "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out!?"

(10) "Day Of CHRIST!" Rightly
Divided from {RDf}: "The Day Of The LORD"?

(11) CONFIDENCE in death/resurrection!, OR, in living/glorification!!?

(12) CHRIST Will RETURN "Without Warning!"?

(13) The TWO "Trumps" Of God!, In HIS "Age Of GRACE!!"?

(14) Meeting HIM "In The Air!" to Heaven!! vs U-turn (theology???) Back To earth?

(15) Preparation For Judgment!?

(16) Post Departure "Deception! Question"?

Conclusion!:

(17) Distinctions Between The "Mystery" Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure! {RDf} The "Prophesied" Second Coming? {RDf = "Rightly Divided from" (2 Timothy 2 : 15 KJB!)}

Be Blessed!

...awaiting Great Discussion with you, Precious friend...

 

[VCO]

The Scripture I provide says what I believe. The problem is that YOU have a different "interpreation" of the verses.


Again, the verses I quote SAY what I believe. It doesn't require "interpretation". It only requires belief in those words.

[QUOTEAnyway, I will pray for you, that God will humble your soul when it comes to these non salvic doctrines and show you how he hates division and it is not from him.

Jesus told a group of new believers that "the Truth will make you free". John 8:32.

When people wrongly divide the Word of Truth, you think that makes God happy? Of course not.

Your views have been refuted by the CLEAR WORDS OF SCRIPTURE. You are the one who is kicking against the goads. To borrow a phrase.[/QUOTE]


I was taught how to avoid Misinterpreting verses. You have to read the WHOLE CONTEXT FIRST, and then go back and CHECK the Original Meaning of problem words you have found. Then and only then are you ready to INTERPRET.

 

[cv5]

Precious friend, AWESOME idea. Work on it together? Please let me know
which part you wish to begin with...:

Great GRACE Departure! {aka The Rapture!}​

"Outline!":
"Do ALL things Decently And In ORDER!!" (1 Corinthians 14 : 40 KJB!)

(1A) PEACE With God! "Receiving" The Holy Spirit For "understanding"?
(1B) 1A "E - X - P - A - N - D - E - D" FOR "Clarification"?

(2a) Which BIBLE: KJB! or, Any "newer modern version" will suffice?
(2b) KJB And God's Excellent "study" Rules!?

(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - "Brief" Introduction...
(3b) THREE "Ages" Rightly Divided! = God's TIMELINES?

(4) Which "Gospel!" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?

(5) GREAT Tribulation? or, *tribulations/GREAT GRACE Departure!?*

(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure "Expectations!"?

(7) God's HEAVENLY UPlook For HIS Body!?

(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking for WHOM! or, "signs"?

(9) He "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out!?"

(10) "Day Of CHRIST!" Rightly
Divided from {RDf}: "The Day Of The LORD"?

(11) CONFIDENCE in death/resurrection!, OR, in living/glorification!!?

(12) CHRIST Will RETURN "Without Warning!"?

(13) The TWO "Trumps" Of God!, In HIS "Age Of GRACE!!"?

(14) Meeting HIM "In The Air!" to Heaven!! vs U-turn (theology???) Back To earth?

(15) Preparation For Judgment!?

(16) Post Departure "Deception! Question"?

Conclusion!:

(17) Distinctions Between The "Mystery" Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure! {RDf} The "Prophesied" Second Coming? {RDf = "Rightly Divided from" (2 Timothy 2 : 15 KJB!)}

Be Blessed!

...awaiting Great Discussion with you, Precious friend...

The consummation of the Church age, Jesus arrives first in grace, in the air in the clouds, appearing only for those who believe in Him, calling the elect righteous redeemed to assembly, snatching up the Bride and taking them to the Father's house.

After the wedding He returns, this time in wrath and judgment. On this occasion every eye shall see him, and the wicked kings of the earth shall tremble. On this occasion the wicked will be assembled for battle, conquered and killed. On this occasion Israel and the earth shall be redeemed.

 

[cv5]

FreeGrace2 said:
When facts are given to someone yet that someone refuses to acknowledge, what else may be going on?

Nothing else is going on. They are unteachable. Just like closing your eyes and plugging your ears. And humming.


Show me any fact that I've refused.


Well, there you go. You just answered your own question.

But my challenge stands. Show me any fact that I've refused.

There are entire themes and sweeping concepts presented to you over and over again that you have refused to acknowledge or have dismissed out of hand.

Tragic really....

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I was taught how to avoid Misinterpreting verses. You have to read the WHOLE CONTEXT FIRST, and then go back and CHECK the Original Meaning of problem words you have found. Then and only then are you ready to INTERPRET.

Precious friend, good rule. This Also may be helpful, From: Bible "study" Rules:

(6) The Best "Interpretive" Commentary On The Bible Is :
The BIBLE Itself!

NEVER ever interpret The Many Plain Scriptures
by the "few" difficult verses, But, ALWAYS Always
Interpret the few Obscure/Difficult/Dubious verses
By ALL Of The MANY Plain and Clear Passages Of
God’s Pure And Holy Word!

Amen? Be Blessed!

 

[cv5]

Very few do nowadays. We should consider ourselves blessed that the Lord has opened our eyes to know this truth.

In fact very recently I compiled a cartload of similar postings here on CC bundled them together and emailed them to two different pastors that I know. Crickets. Not even a reply. The one pastor I actually had the opportunity to explain it (The Jewish wedding ceremony As it pertains to the rapture) momentarily and he did not even care to acknowledge or reply.

Incidentally one was an millennialist (it took over a year of my endless emails and texts to find this to be true.......he was deceptive and sneaky about it). The other was a historical premillennialist. Both were evidently brainwashed in liberal Seminaries. Both upheld non-Jewish commentaries as supreme.......rather than the original Jewish biblical documents.

We should consider ourselves blessed knowing these wonderful and amazing truths.

Typo..... Meant to say amillennialist

 

[VCO]

Mount Zion and Mount Olive are two different mountains. So the Mount Olive you're referencing in Zechariah doesn't seem to have a clear correlation anywhere else in eschatology.

You'll closely notice that Revelation 14:1 says that the Lamb stands on Mount Zion with the 144,000.

Revelation 14:1
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Where on GOD's green earth did you get the idea that Mt. of Olives and Mt. Zion are talking about the same place. It is obvious HE went across the Kidron Valley after HIS FEET TOUCHED down on EARTH at Mt. of Olives, and obviously went over to the Mt. Zion, which was HIS Father's house on earth, TO GET THE 144,000. The real Mount Zion is here:

And the Mount of Olives is HERE on the East side of the Kidron Valley:


Mount Moriah is the name of the Whole Ridge running from just north of Dome of the Rock, all the way down south past the Pool of Siloam. City of David was just a nickname, but it was Ancient JERUSALEM. So Mt. Moriah is where King Solomon is correct, and Mt. Zion is the exact place on Mt. Moriah where King Solomon build the Temple. Here is King Solomon's Jerusalem:



Below is a photo from 1857 that shows a Forested Hill and a FARMLAND, where they raised Potatoes. City of DAVID was never rebuild after the Romans destroyed it in 70 A.D. It was not rebuilt until about 1873.

Jeremiah 26:18 (HCSB)
18 “Micah the Moreshite prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah and said to all the people of Judah, ‘This is what the LORD of Hosts says: Zion will be plowed like a field, Jerusalem will become ruins, and the temple mount a forested hill.’

That proved the correct location is approximately 600 Feet south of the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Jer. 26:18.



Now who told you the Bible is a complete history of Bible times ? ? ? It is at best a historical document with lots of facts left out.

John 21:24-25 (HCSB)
24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.
25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which, if they were written one by one, I suppose not even the world itself could contain the books that would be written.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And in v.3, the words "that DAY", cannot refer to the DofL. Because the words "that day" obviously refer to a specific DAY, not a lengthy time period, which is what the DofL is.

"3 that day [italics] will not be present if not shall have come the departure *FIRST*..." i.e. the event verse 1 had just spoken of...

"3 that day [the COMMENCING of the TIME-PERIOD of v.2] will NOT be present [as the false conveyors said "IS PRESENT" PERFECT indicative] if not shall have come..." ONE THING *FIRST*...

V.2 is Paul telling them not to be convinced by anyone saying "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]"...

It wasn't.

And Paul is telling WHY it is NOT SO "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]".

Because ONE THING must take place *FIRST*...

... "AND the man of sin be revealed..."

Once he is "revealed," the day of the Lord WILL INDEED BE PRESENT (see 1Th5:2-3 the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" parallel Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]")


V.1 is entirely and solely our Rapture event--that point in time. It takes place "IN THE AIR"--"the meeting OF THE LORD in the air."

It is what must come *first* before "the day of the Lord" IS [WILL BE] "PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth, at the START of the Trib yrs.
Paul is saying, "believe US," what WE taught you (v.15), don't believe THEM (v.2).

One more time: "that DAY" in v.3 refers to a specific day, not a lengthy period of time. So it refers back to v.1 and "the coming of our Lord", which, btw, WILL occur on a specific day.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Precious friend, AWESOME idea. Work on it together? Please let me know
which part you wish to begin with...:

Great GRACE Departure! {aka The Rapture!}​

​

​

There is no "departure" in the rapture. Other than meeting all the dead believers with Jesus in the clouds.

If you have a verse that actually describes Jesus taking all the resurrected and raptured saints TO HEAVEN, then we'll be on the same boat.

"Outline!":
"Do ALL things Decently And In ORDER!!" (1 Corinthians 14 : 40 KJB!)

(1A) PEACE With God! "Receiving" The Holy Spirit For "understanding"?
(1B) 1A "E - X - P - A - N - D - E - D" FOR "Clarification"?

(2a) Which BIBLE: KJB! or, Any "newer modern version" will suffice?
(2b) KJB And God's Excellent "study" Rules!?

(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - "Brief" Introduction...
(3b) THREE "Ages" Rightly Divided! = God's TIMELINES?

(4) Which "Gospel!" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?

(5) GREAT Tribulation? or, *tribulations/GREAT GRACE Departure!?*

(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure "Expectations!"?

(7) God's HEAVENLY UPlook For HIS Body!?

(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking for WHOM! or, "signs"?

(9) He "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out!?"

(10) "Day Of CHRIST!" Rightly
Divided from {RDf}: "The Day Of The LORD"?

(11) CONFIDENCE in death/resurrection!, OR, in living/glorification!!?

(12) CHRIST Will RETURN "Without Warning!"?

(13) The TWO "Trumps" Of God!, In HIS "Age Of GRACE!!"?

(14) Meeting HIM "In The Air!" to Heaven!! vs U-turn (theology???) Back To earth?

(15) Preparation For Judgment!?

(16) Post Departure "Deception! Question"?

Nothing here proves that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

Conclusion!:

(17) Distinctions Between The "Mystery" Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure! {RDf} The "Prophesied" Second Coming? {RDf = "Rightly Divided from" (2 Timothy 2 : 15 KJB!)}

Be Blessed!

...awaiting Great Discussion with you, Precious friend...

Sorry, but your post was quite confusing and hard to follow. But the main thing is there were no verses that actually describe Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The Scripture I provide says what I believe. The problem is that YOU have a different "interpreation" of the verses.

Again, the verses I quote SAY what I believe. It doesn't require "interpretation". It only requires belief in those words.

Jesus told a group of new believers that "the Truth will make you free". John 8:32.

And He is right.

When people wrongly divide the Word of Truth, you think that makes God happy? Of course not.

Right. Of course not.

Your views have been refuted by the CLEAR WORDS OF SCRIPTURE.

OK, where is the clear verse that describes Jesus taking resurrected/raptured saints to heaven?

You are the one who is kicking against the goads. To borrow a phrase.

Ha. 2 Thess 2:1-3 very clearly puts the "our gathering to Him" WITH "the coming of our Lord". That is the rapture with the Second Coming.

I was taught how to avoid Misinterpreting verses.

Then apply your learning to 2 Thess 2:1-3.

You have to read the WHOLE CONTEXT FIRST, and then go back and CHECK the Original Meaning of problem words you have found. Then and only then are you ready to INTERPRET.

OK, do this. Interpret 2 Thess 2:1-3 according to your learning.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are entire themes and sweeping concepts presented to you over and over again that you have refused to acknowledge or have dismissed out of hand.

Tragic really....

I'll wait for your interpretation of 2 Thess 2:1-3. Just those 3 verses.