50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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randyk

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I *am* defining it within its context.

What I am NOT doing (and what others are doing) is, jumping back OVER AND PAST v.2 in order to ascertain what v.3a's "NOT" is speaking to (that is a grammatical issue)...

"3 that day shall NOT be..." is directly addressing what the false conveyors were communicating [in v.2] "IS [already present / already here / already in existence; Perfect Indicative... Perfect Tense meaning: already "began at some point in the PAST, and continuing on into the PRESENT"]
I don't know why you keep repeating, redundantly, that the false info is already present and already here and already in existence, a perfect indicative, meaning began and continues? Why don't you just say what the Scriptures say, that the false info said a certain condition exists that is wrong and needs correction?

The statement is simpler than you want to make it. Christians believed that the day of Christ's coming for his Church had already happened. They believed Christ may have already appeared on earth to a gathering of believers, and had begun to manifest the Kingdom of God and its victory over Satan.

And this isn't hard to believe because we have movements just like that today! As I said, the Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are a manifestation of God's Kingdom now on the earth.

And even regular Christians have formed the Kingdom Now movement, which basically sees the Kingdom expanding now and presently defeating and overthrowing Satan. These are the things Paul wrote his letter to oppose.

Our victory over Satan does begin with our Salvation in Christ, but it is to end with the coming of the Kingdom, which is not yet, but is coming. To say it has already come in some sense is false teaching, and it is this that Paul tried to expose.

And considering that "the day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" whenever used in the SAME CONTEXTS (which Paul would certainly have been very familiar with in his knowledge of OT scriptures) always refers to A TIME-PERIOD (SAME ONE [as also is used in this context: 2 chpts])...
Paul used the eschatological "day" 3 times in the letter:
1.10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed.
2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.


All of these days apply to the literal 24-hour day in which Christ will come for his Church. They do not apply to an era, or a time period.

,...and that the Thessalonians ALREADY "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of its ARRIVAL when they would have HEARD the false conveyors PURPORTING of it as "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT INDICATIVE]," I find it pretty far-fetched to imagine that Paul is now shifting gears by defining it in an entirely *different* way from just as near-ago as his first letter to them...
That's just it. Paul had already communicated biblical eschatology to the Thessalonians. They just got confused because of the manifestation of a "False Christ" movement. It called into question whether they had understood Paul's teaching correctly. And so, Paul let them know exactly what he had meant.

None of this teaching in 2 Thes. was different from what he had taught in 1 Thes. It was the same day of Christ's coming, and the same Rapture of the Church that Paul was now warning could not come unless Antichrist appears 1st, and then is destroyed.

Paul was clarifying that he had indeed meant that Christ must only come to destroy the Antichrist, just as Dan 7 indicated. They had apparently gotten confused, thinking that AntiChristianity already existed and that Christ had already shown up and revealed himself to some particular movement within the Church.

It was this false "movement" that Paul was opposing and exposing. He was not giving them any new eschatology, which he had already taught them in 1 Thes 4, and which was already apparent in Dan 7. They knew antiChristianity preceded the coming of the Son of Man from heaven, and then knew the Son of Man was coming to his Church. They just thought that these things had already taken place. This was not new eschatology!

That makes absolutely no sense to me, and makes it seem y'all are grasping at straws merely in order to retain your idea that Paul is CONVEYING a "post-trib Rapture" in this text/context... and by switching the word "FIRST" to a completely different clause (from where it actually is), one can seemingly "get away with it". :D
As I said, Paul is not "switching gears" and now saying something different from what he said in 1 Thes 4! You are saying that, but I am not. Your argument against me is predicated on believing that I am giving 2 different messages, from 1 Thes 4 to 2 Thes 2, and I am not doing that!

Plainly, the coming of Christ for his Church is in 1 Thes 4 and also in 2 Thes 2. They are both the same. It's just that Paul explains that the current experience of tribulation is not the full manifestation of the person of the Man of Sin. And unless he appears 1st, then Christ cannot come for his Church.

In 1 Thes 4, Paul references the same kind of paraphernalia associated with Christ's coming as Christ himself used in the Olivet Discourse, the coming as the Son of Man with the clouds of heaven, the blowing of trumpets, the angels gathering God's people. It's all there in 1 Thes 4.

And that is the same event Paul is saying cannot happen yet, unless the tribulation they are already experiencing becomes something more advanced with the appearance of the Man of Sin. You therefore reject my position because you don't understand it. Both 1 Thes 4 and 2 Thes 2 refer to the exact same day of Christ's coming for his Church.

Paul just needed to explain that as they were experiencing tribulation, false Christ movements would appear and begin to declare they had Kingdom authority to defeat the devil now. But this cannot happen until Christ himself appears from heaven to destroy the Man of Sin, who has not yet even appeared.

That has to happen is what Paul was explicitly teaching. And no, it's not difficult to read. It's only difficult to read when you give 12 different versions of "is present."
 

randyk

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And saying it is ALL THREE, Leads to MASSIVE CONFUSION.
I believe this is the whole problem, calling this "day" in which Christ explicitly comes for his Church, a "time period," and not the Rapture. That is the exact opposite of what Paul himself said it was. He did, in fact, say that this "day" is the Rapture!

So what we have is someone here who is placing his pet eschatology above the explicit teaching of Paul. And he soothes his conscience by claiming I'm advocating a position different from what Paul taught in 1 Thes 4! Clearly, I haven't done that!

Not only does he deny that this "day" is the Rapture, but he says it is something else, the judgments and blessings associated with another coming of Christ, including a 7 year Tribulation Period, ending at the 2nd Coming. So in effect, Christ comes not once, but actually twice!

You really can't portray Pretrib Theology any better than this. It is obviously unScriptural and actually opposed to what Paul is explicitly teaching in his letters.
 

VCO

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The "JUDGMENTs" aspect OF "the DOTL" is not merely the split-second of His "arrival / return" (Rev19), but the entire 7 years that Rev4 thru 19 is describing (SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS--a SPANS of time, rather than a mere "24-hr day's time" upon His "RETURN"); thereafter is the "BLESSINGs" aspect OF "the DOTL" (i.e. the MK age), which the "saints" will ENTER upon His "RETURN" there (to the earth), Rev19.


The "JUDGMENTs" aspect OF it will commence when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [2Th2:7b-8a parallel language to that of Lam2:3-4 in the context of "wrath" words there--and like Hab1:6,12's "...O LORD, thou hast ordained them [the Chaldeans / Babylonians] FOR JUDGMENT [i.e. TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT]; O mighty God, thou hast established them [the Chaldeans / Babylonians] FOR CORRECTION"... Our Lord is the One Who will be then STANDING to JUDGE by OPENING the SEALS [equivalent "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS"], and the effects of which will thereafter unfold upon the earth, that is, DURING the TRIB yrs...).


Zech14 uses both phrases ('day of the Lord' and 'IN THAT DAY') to be speaking of the SAME TIME PERIOD, aka the MK aspect OF IT that commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth... but that is only *that* aspect, not the entirety of what "the DOTL" entails).

...so, on the contrary... I believe by NOT acknowledging that "the DOTL" ARRIVES at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" as 1Th5:2-3 says, then great *confusion* results, when ppl view these various texts on it (...note each context determines WHICH ASPECT [or all 3] that it's referring to...)

Maybe this will help you sort it all out:

The RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH and the Gathering of the Remnant of ISRAEL, are a different times. You are surely CONFUSSED.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (HCSB)
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers,

THAT IS JUST BEFORE HIS FEET TOUCH DOWN ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, and what is being GATHERED is ISRAEL.

We are gone about 7 years before that.

QUOTE:
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other [Matt. 24:31].

The elect spoken of in this verse is still the nation Israel. The prophets in the Old Testament foretold of a miracle that would bring the Jews back into their land. (This is not the church, which is going to be caught up out of this world to meet the Lord in the air, NOT GATHERED. Angels are not connected with the Rapture, other than the Archangel Shouting.) The Lord will come in person to receive the church with the sound of a trumpet, and His voice will be like that of an archangel. He will not need any help to gather His church together. He died for the church, and He will bring it together. When He says that the "angels... shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other," we can be sure that He is talking about the nation Israel -- ministering angels have always been connected with Israel.
Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.
:END QUOTE.



QUOTE:
d. The Sound with Which He Will Return (24:31)


At His return the Son of Man "shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:31). Moses anticipated the judgmental scattering of Israel into all parts of the earth because of national sin; he also foresaw the end-time ingathering of all the remaining outcasts of Israel. In Deuteronomy 30:3-5 he prophesied that national repentance would be followed by national regathering:

Exploring the Future: A Comprehensive Guide to Bible Prophecy.
:END QUOTE.


The RAPTURE happens at lest 7 years before the Mat. 24:31 happens. We are not GATHERED by the ANGELS, we are:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (HCSB)
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.

READ THEM, AND WEEP!
 

TheDivineWatermark

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And saying it is ALL THREE, Leads to MASSIVE CONFUSION.
Oh, and one more thing...

...I forgot to add this part when I made my last post...

Once "our Rapture" event takes place (at some point not too long afterward), that is when 2Th2:10-12's thing comes into play... "...God SHALL SEND TO THEM [to certain ones, not 100% of the ppl on the earth] GREAT DELUSION, IN ORDER THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI...". This is the SAME PERSONS (and spans of time) that Paul also speaks about in 2Th1:7-8 "INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those who..." (same persons... same time-period/SPANS OF TIME. IOW, 2Th1:7-8's "INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON..." is NOT merely the last day of the Trib when Jesus "RETURNS"... but this particular "JUDGMENTs" unfolding over time, is what starts SOON AFTER "our Rapture," IN / DURING / WITHIN the 7 Trib yrs, see...)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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The RAPTURE happens at lest 7 years before the Mat. 24:31 happens. We are not GATHERED by the ANGELS, we are:
That's exactly what I've said throughout these hundreds of pages... (multiple threads, recently)...


What's tripping you up (making you *mistakenly* think I'm anything OTHER than "PRE-trib") is the fact I'm pointing out re: "the DOTL" *INCLUDES the TRIB yrs ALSO... but we EXIT "STAGE UP" *PRIOR TO* that time-period's [DOTL / TRIB aspect's] *ARRIVAL*... (immediately prior to TRIB / DOTL's *ARRIVAL* unfolding thereafter upon the earth--WE'RE GONE by that point! The 7 yrs of JUDGMENTs unfolding thereafter commences [once we "LIFT OFF"])
 

cv5

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Again, to be clear, I am not saying that "the DOTL" is our Rapture.



But "the DOTL" is an earthly-located *time-period* that INCLUDES all three of the following:

--the 7-yr Trib (unfolding upon the earth); AND

--Christ's Second Coming (to the earth); AND

--His 1000-yr reign (on / over the earth)


...ALL THREE.


Its *ARRIVAL* is at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman per 1Th5:2-3... Jesus spoke of those.

WE (the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY) will NOT be present on the earth FOR THOSE. They are what "kick-off" the DOTL time-period (i.e. TRIB portion).



What I *disagree* with... is that "the DOTL" COMMENCES at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19.

No. It STARTS way back at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 ; Matt24:4/Mk13:5]" AKA the "FIRST SEAL" (in the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period.. of 7 yrs duration).
That's the way I see it. Definitely...
 

TheDivineWatermark

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"The day of the Lord" is entirely "EARTHLY-located" (in all 3 of its ASPECTS)... "our Rapture" event IS NOT.
 

randyk

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Maybe this will help you sort it all out:

The RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH and the Gathering of the Remnant of ISRAEL, are a different times. You are surely CONFUSSED.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (HCSB)
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers,

THAT IS JUST BEFORE HIS FEET TOUCH DOWN ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, and what is being GATHERED is ISRAEL.

We are gone about 7 years before that.

QUOTE:
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other [Matt. 24:31].

The elect spoken of in this verse is still the nation Israel. The prophets in the Old Testament foretold of a miracle that would bring the Jews back into their land. (This is not the church, which is going to be caught up out of this world to meet the Lord in the air, NOT GATHERED. Angels are not connected with the Rapture, other than the Archangel Shouting.) The Lord will come in person to receive the church with the sound of a trumpet, and His voice will be like that of an archangel. He will not need any help to gather His church together. He died for the church, and He will bring it together. When He says that the "angels... shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other," we can be sure that He is talking about the nation Israel -- ministering angels have always been connected with Israel.
Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.
:END QUOTE.

QUOTE:
d. The Sound with Which He Will Return (24:31)


At His return the Son of Man "shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:31). Moses anticipated the judgmental scattering of Israel into all parts of the earth because of national sin; he also foresaw the end-time ingathering of all the remaining outcasts of Israel. In Deuteronomy 30:3-5 he prophesied that national repentance would be followed by national regathering:

Exploring the Future: A Comprehensive Guide to Bible Prophecy.
:END QUOTE.


The RAPTURE happens at lest 7 years before the Mat. 24:31 happens. We are not GATHERED by the ANGELS, we are:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (HCSB)
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.

READ THEM, AND WEEP!
This is Pretrib Theology, and it is false! There is no coming of the Lord Jesus 7 years before his other 2nd Coming! There are not 2 comings of the Lord Jesus from heaven. When he comes, according to Dan 7, he comes down from heaven to establish God's Kingdom upon the earth. To do this he 1st has to defeat and to destroy the Man of Sin, and the part of humanity that sides with him.

McGee is wrong, and has some very bad eschatology. He may be a good Radio Teacher, but he's poor with eschatology. He obviously gets his information from Darby's Dispensationalism, which is the source for this supposed division between Israel and the Church.

God actually has only one plan in place for Salvation, even if different nations have to face this Salvation in different times and in different places. It is still all part of the NT era.

When Jesus gave his Olivet Discourse and spoke of the gathering of God's people at the coming of the Son of Man, he was referencing Daniel 7 and his portrait of the Son of Man coming down from heaven to defeat the Antichrist. And he was referring, at that time, to Israel primarily, because the Church had not yet been expanded to include the Gentiles.

Later, Paul included the Gentile believers together with Jewish believers in applying all of this theology regarding the coming of the Son of Man from heaven. The gathering of Israel is the gathering of both Jewish believers and Gentile believers, because now in the Church era Jesus has revealed that there will be a great multitude from all nations at his coming. This is the same coming as the one Jesus presented in the Olivet Discourse, replete with angels, trumpets, and lightnings.

It will be preliminary to and including the regathering of the nation of Israel. Right after the Christians are gathered from all nations, God can begin the process of restoring godly nations and godly individuals. And Israel will be restored, along with many former Christian nations. I actually believe that it is as the Christians are glorified and made judges that Israel's restoration can take place, because Christians will be overseeing that restoration from heaven.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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That's the way I see it. Definitely...
Right.

"The Departure / OUR Rapture [IN THE AIR] *FIRST*" [ARROW *UP*], and then, BOOM! JUDGMENTs [ARROW HORIZONTAL-->] pretty much immediately commence to unfold upon the earth (i.e. the 7-yr TRIB aspect OF the entire LONG DOTL time-period... Which ENTIRE LONG DOTL time-period goes ON to INCLUDE ALSO the "BLESSINGs" aspect, aka the MK age 1000 yrs commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19)


[of course, there is "purpose" to the JUDGMENTs...]
 

cv5

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I believe this is the whole problem, calling this "day" in which Christ explicitly comes for his Church, a "time period," and not the Rapture. That is the exact opposite of what Paul himself said it was. He did, in fact, say that this "day" is the Rapture!

So what we have is someone here who is placing his pet eschatology above the explicit teaching of Paul. And he soothes his conscience by claiming I'm advocating a position different from what Paul taught in 1 Thes 4! Clearly, I haven't done that!

Not only does he deny that this "day" is the Rapture, but he says it is something else, the judgments and blessings associated with another coming of Christ, including a 7 year Tribulation Period, ending at the 2nd Coming. So in effect, Christ comes not once, but actually twice!

You really can't portray Pretrib Theology any better than this. It is obviously unScriptural and actually opposed to what Paul is explicitly teaching in his letters.
Actually the problem is that very little to nothing of what TWD is saying is even comprehensible to you. This, your latest post noted above.....proves it......:cautious:
 

TheDivineWatermark

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As I said, Paul is not "switching gears" and now saying something different from what he said in 1 Thes 4! You are saying that, but I am not.
I'm NOT saying that.

In 2Th2:1 Paul is speaking of that very "event" ("our Rapture" event which will occur at one point-in-time [at/to one "IN THE AIR" location]--that's Paul's Subject in v.1--SAME as in 1Th4:17).


The false conveyors (v.2) were not covering *that Subject*.
 

randyk

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Actually the problem is that very little to nothing of what TWD is saying is even comprehensible to you. This, your latest post noted above.....proves it......:cautious:
If you can't argue anything for yourself, you can end the personal attacks.
 

randyk

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I'm NOT saying that.

In 2Th2:1 Paul is speaking of that very "event" ("our Rapture" event which will occur at one point-in-time [at/to one "IN THE AIR" location]--that's Paul's Subject in v.1--SAME as in 1Th4:17).


The false conveyors (v.2) were not covering *that Subject*.
The false conveyors were in fact covering *that subject!* They had been proclaiming that the day of Christ's coming had already taken place, together with the manifestation of God's Kingdom. This is the essence of the "false Christs" that Jesus had warned his apostles about. This is a perfect example of what Jesus said would be coming.
 

randyk

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The question may arise: how did these Christians, that the Thessalonians knew about, claim to have been "Raptured?" If they were still on earth, and had not yet been glorified, how could they state that the resurrection had already taken place, that the Church had been glorified, and that the Devil had been defeated?

Well, quite simply, they declared that Christ had visited them in the Spirit, endowing them with some kind of eschatological power on earth. They were, in their own thinking, God's Kingdom come to earth. Perhaps they thought the glorification and resurrection would follow their own victory over Satan?

The point is, Jesus said there would be false Christs and false prophets. This ego-trip does get into the Church as well, as Christians begin to proclaim faith, prophecy, and authority to command angels and to realize the Kingdom of God.

Paul wants us to know that the Church cannot bring in the Kingdom of God--only Christ can. So no movement, not even any Christian movement, can claim to have eschatological authority and power. We must submit to sufferings in this present life, and experience some defeat at the hands of the devil. But in the end, Christ himself will bring us the victory.
 

randyk

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Jesus himself explained how people can falsely present an idea that he had already come and had brought his Kingdom.

Mat 24.4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

The 1st way they proclaim themselves a coming of Christ is simply be declaring it to be so, by claiming to be a Messianic movement on earth. The fact people will believe that implies that Christians also will be deceived by these self-flattering movements that claim to wield eschatological power on earth.

Mat 24.10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

This shows how Christians can be deceived. They don't want to accept that sufferings are part of the Christian life, and so they want to believe someone who prophesied that the answer is already here, that the Messianic Kingdom has arrived in some tangible form that can be immediately accessed.

Mat 24.22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

Once again, as prophecies appear to fail, and as Israel's existence and the Church's existence seem to be threatened, people will be open to the idea of a more immediate solution, wanting to believe that in some form the Kingdom has already come and can immediately be accessed.

Mat 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it."

This is how a Messianic movement tries to show itself to be Messianic and eschatological in character. It is an earthly declaration, a visible presentation, to appear as if God's Kingdom power is present in that movement.

It does not have to prove itself as having already been glorified or resurrected. It does not have to show that there's been a heavenly transformation. All that they show is that on earth they proclaim themselves as having the signs of heavenly power, indicating there authority is coming from having Christ in their movement.

It's a blatant declaration of Christian power, but it's false, because Christ said only he will bring this authority to earth at his coming. And it will demonstrate itself in a visible victory on earth over the Man of Sin and his army.
 

cv5

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If you can't argue anything for yourself, you can end the personal attacks.
TDW is doing much better job then I ever could. I do find it noteworthy that the opposing views are being struck down in effortless albeit alarming ease. Superior biblical scholarship proves time and time again to be an phalanx impenetrable to error or doubt .
 
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Walvoord basically seems to be saying that the Church was raptured in the first century.... Lol. Another crazy Preterist?

6. The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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TheDivineWatermark said: [re: the point about "the DOTL" starting with the TRIB]

Well, that is NOT what you said some 50 pages ago (or whatever--however long ago that was), where you said it DOES.
If I was posting to one of your posts, most likely I was unable to accurately figure out your post.
You weren't.

You were posting to another Member/poster and you were making the point then, that the DOTL INCLUDES the Trib years (in more than in just one post of yours, I recall) when that particular point AIDED the overall point you were making at the time, to him / them / that poster...

Then several posts later you'd say it starts when He returns / His Second Advent... (i.e. that it doesn't start till that point)...

Then a few posts later (when it suited your other points being made), you would switch back to saying it starts with the Trib years, again.



It's impossible to conduct a "SEARCH" to find those posts where this is what you've done/said (and there were a number of them) because the words are too common. No "RESULTS" show up.
 

randyk

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TDW is doing much better job then I ever could. I do find it noteworthy that the opposing views are being struck down in effortless albeit alarming ease. Superior biblical scholarship proves time and time again to be an phalanx impenetrable to error or doubt .
Be happy with what you choose to believe, brother. But you aren't engaged in this debate, are you?