50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
- Thread starter cv5
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Compare the verses in the 'Trumpet' columns of the chart/table on this web page:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
I believe the Trumpet Events are brought about by the Two Witnesses.
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
I believe the Trumpet Events are brought about by the Two Witnesses.
I said the same thing in my post.
I said that also.
I think the resurrection is in heaven not the clouds of the Earth but that's close enough to being correct. At least it's not the typical view where the dead rise out of Earthly graves and join the living in the rapture.
It means a house:
G3438
μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.
Total KJV occurrences: 2
Paul is the one who taught that buildings are our new glorified body. It doesn't come from me.
I said that also.
I think the resurrection is in heaven not the clouds of the Earth but that's close enough to being correct. At least it's not the typical view where the dead rise out of Earthly graves and join the living in the rapture.
It means a house:
G3438
μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.
Total KJV occurrences: 2
Paul is the one who taught that buildings are our new glorified body. It doesn't come from me.
Apostasia means rebellion though.
The Apostasia Paul is talking about, and the Man of Sin, are probably Eleazar Ben Hananiah and the Zealot movement;
Eleazar ignited the Roman Suppression by, amongst various acts of temple desecration,
banning the Romans from the temple mount and rejecting Caesar's sacrifice.
A real shame that so many people are clueless about the History of the Jews.
The Apostasia Paul is talking about, and the Man of Sin, are probably Eleazar Ben Hananiah and the Zealot movement;
Eleazar ignited the Roman Suppression by, amongst various acts of temple desecration,
banning the Romans from the temple mount and rejecting Caesar's sacrifice.
A real shame that so many people are clueless about the History of the Jews.
You left out that Eleazar Ben Hananiah opposed and exalted himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sat in the temple of God, shewing himself that he was God and how Eleazar Ben Hananiah's coming was after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders which are miracles used to deceive and how the Lord consumed Eleazar Ben Hananiah with the spirit of his mouth, and destroyed Eleazar Ben Hananiah with the brightness of his coming. Eleazar Ben Hananiah did those things and was destroyed by Christ at the second coming right?
Yep, clearly Eleazar Ben Hananiah is the man of sin Paul wrote about! Preterism gets another thing right! lol
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Yep, clearly Eleazar Ben Hananiah is the man of sin Paul wrote about! Preterism gets another thing right! lol
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
Rev 14.
You can call it a "coming" , "gathering" ,a rapture.
It does not erase the fact that firstfruit Jews are gathered and in heaven followed by a gathering by Jesus just a few verses later while sitting on a cloud.
It is a fact, no matter what you try to make it into.
All those cliche and labels do not erase the pretrib rapture dynamic
You can call it a "coming" , "gathering" ,a rapture.
It does not erase the fact that firstfruit Jews are gathered and in heaven followed by a gathering by Jesus just a few verses later while sitting on a cloud.
It is a fact, no matter what you try to make it into.
All those cliche and labels do not erase the pretrib rapture dynamic
I've seen the chart. I don't see any 3.5 yr gap between end of Trib and Millennial reighn. And it doesn't make sense. When Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent, it is to end the Trib at the battle of Armageddon AND set up His reign. Why would there be a 3.5 yr gap?
Rev 8:6 - 6 Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.
Then, v.7,8,10, and 12 mention angels who sound their trumpets. Then the 5th angel is mentioned in 9:1, the 6th angel in 9:13 and the 7th angel is mentioned in 11:15.
There is nothing about either of the 2 Witnesses sounding trumpets.
Rev 8:6 - 6 Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.
Then, v.7,8,10, and 12 mention angels who sound their trumpets. Then the 5th angel is mentioned in 9:1, the 6th angel in 9:13 and the 7th angel is mentioned in 11:15.
There is nothing about either of the 2 Witnesses sounding trumpets.
What led you to thinking that resurrection is in heaven? I've already noted that the verses about "homes" in heaven refer to the fact that the source for resurrection comes from heaven. You still have no verses that say that Jesus brings resurrected believers with Him.
In fact, in the rapture verses, the Bible does say that Jesus brings with Him the "dead in Christ" believers and they are resurrected in the clouds first before the living believers are raptured/changed. So they couldn't be resurrected IN heaven BEFORE they come with Christ.
English Standard Version
In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
Berean Study Bible
In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
New American Standard Bible
In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Christian Standard Bible
In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?
Contemporary English Version
There are many rooms in my Father's house. I wouldn't tell you this, unless it was true. I am going there to prepare a place for each of you.
Good News Translation
There are many rooms in my Father's house, and I am going to prepare a place for you. I would not tell you this if it were not so.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
My Father's house has many rooms. If that were not true, would I have told you that I'm going to prepare a place for you?
International Standard Version
There are many rooms in my Father's house. If there weren't, I wouldn't have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you, would I?
Literal Standard Version
in the house of My Father are many rooms; and if not, I would have told you; I go on to prepare a place for you;
New International Version
My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
Seems a bit more than a few Greek scholars have a different understanding of the Greek word than you.
The Bible is clear about WHEN dead believers residing IN heaven receive their new imperishable bodies; when they are in the clouds and joined with the living believers who are gathered or caught up with them.
In fact, in the rapture verses, the Bible does say that Jesus brings with Him the "dead in Christ" believers and they are resurrected in the clouds first before the living believers are raptured/changed. So they couldn't be resurrected IN heaven BEFORE they come with Christ.
English Standard Version
In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
Berean Study Bible
In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
New American Standard Bible
In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you.
Christian Standard Bible
In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?
Contemporary English Version
There are many rooms in my Father's house. I wouldn't tell you this, unless it was true. I am going there to prepare a place for each of you.
Good News Translation
There are many rooms in my Father's house, and I am going to prepare a place for you. I would not tell you this if it were not so.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
My Father's house has many rooms. If that were not true, would I have told you that I'm going to prepare a place for you?
International Standard Version
There are many rooms in my Father's house. If there weren't, I wouldn't have told you that I am going away to prepare a place for you, would I?
Literal Standard Version
in the house of My Father are many rooms; and if not, I would have told you; I go on to prepare a place for you;
New International Version
My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
Seems a bit more than a few Greek scholars have a different understanding of the Greek word than you.
The Bible is clear about WHEN dead believers residing IN heaven receive their new imperishable bodies; when they are in the clouds and joined with the living believers who are gathered or caught up with them.
It is patently obvious that Paul is talking about first Century events in 2 Thessalonians 2,
and in fact generally throughout his letters to the Church there.I think once one understands that, then everything else falls into place.Then one simply has to look at first century events, and see how they are being to referred to by Paul here. It is not too complex.
Your concern or worry is, as i explained before several times, based on a confusion about Christ's Comings
and his final appearance for his Saints. I've not read Ladd myself, but RK suggests that Ladd
will help you understand this vital difference.
I hope this helps, and you can feel more assured that prophecy fulfilled is part of the bedrock of Scriptural truth.
and in fact generally throughout his letters to the Church there.I think once one understands that, then everything else falls into place.Then one simply has to look at first century events, and see how they are being to referred to by Paul here. It is not too complex.
Your concern or worry is, as i explained before several times, based on a confusion about Christ's Comings
and his final appearance for his Saints. I've not read Ladd myself, but RK suggests that Ladd
will help you understand this vital difference.
I hope this helps, and you can feel more assured that prophecy fulfilled is part of the bedrock of Scriptural truth.
Says the man that says this:
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
IS THE EXACT SAME THING AS THIS;
Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
postrib rature is so poory thought out.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
IS THE EXACT SAME THING AS THIS;
Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
postrib rature is so poory thought out.