50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

[FreeGrace2]

Says the man that says this:
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

IS THE EXACT SAME THING AS THIS;

Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

postrib rature is so poory thought out.

Interesting dodge, considering that you STILL DO NOT have any actual evidence that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven.

Why do you presume that every verse/passage about the Second Coming MUST include ALL aspects of it?

Kinda like demanding specific wording of verses before you'll believe them.

btw, Rev 14 is simply stating the plan of harvesting the earth. There's nothing there about Jesus going to earth. There IS clear evidence from v.16 that Jesus is the cause of the harvesting on earth.

But desperate people use desperate measures when they are backed into a corner and can't defend themselves.

 

[Absolutely]

Interesting dodge, considering that you STILL DO NOT have any actual evidence that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven.

Why do you presume that every verse/passage about the Second Coming MUST include ALL aspects of it?

Kinda like demanding specific wording of verses before you'll believe them.

btw, Rev 14 is simply stating the plan of harvesting the earth. There's nothing there about Jesus going to earth. There IS clear evidence from v.16 that Jesus is the cause of the harvesting on earth.

But desperate people use desperate measures when they are backed into a corner and can't defend themselves.

Where does he take them?
Do they ever mount the white horses?

Educate me

 

[Absolutely]

Interesting dodge, considering that you STILL DO NOT have any actual evidence that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven.

Why do you presume that every verse/passage about the Second Coming MUST include ALL aspects of it?

Kinda like demanding specific wording of verses before you'll believe them.

btw, Rev 14 is simply stating the plan of harvesting the earth. There's nothing there about Jesus going to earth. There IS clear evidence from v.16 that Jesus is the cause of the harvesting on earth.

But desperate people use desperate measures when they are backed into a corner and can't defend themselves.

Rev 14 is during the trib.

Where is Jesus sitting in rev 14?

Where is Jesus sitting in rev 19?

 

[Absolutely]

Interesting dodge, considering that you STILL DO NOT have any actual evidence that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven.

Why do you presume that every verse/passage about the Second Coming MUST include ALL aspects of it?

Kinda like demanding specific wording of verses before you'll believe them.

btw, Rev 14 is simply stating the plan of harvesting the earth. There's nothing there about Jesus going to earth. There IS clear evidence from v.16 that Jesus is the cause of the harvesting on earth.

But desperate people use desperate measures when they are backed into a corner and can't defend themselves.

"""But desperate people use desperate measures when they are backed into a corner and can't defend themselves."""

You guys invoke dead men as your CORE beliefs.

The CORE of your doctrine is darby

Getting you guys redirected to the bible is frustrating.

But if you call the bible desperation.....that is yet another red flag in your beliefs.

 

[Absolutely]

"""Why do you presume that every verse/passage about the Second Coming MUST include ALL aspects of it?"""

Lets play this out.
You say Jesus sitting on a cloud harvesting with a sickle is actually Jesus coming on white horses, correct?

Then, AFTER THAT HARVEST, AN ANGEL gathers, not Jesus, to armageddon....correct?

 

[Absolutely]

Rev 14

The nail....final nail....in postrib rapture coffin ....poorly thought out....debunked.....theory
...originating from men in the early church....with the deception of israel destroyed and scattered.

How.....at this late hour...could anyone promote that nonsense?

 

[Absolutely]

Where does he take them?
Do they ever mount the white horses?

Educate me

^^^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^

 

[randyk]

Rev 14.
You can call it a "coming" , "gathering" ,a rapture.

It does not erase the fact that firstfruit Jews are gathered and in heaven followed by a gathering by Jesus just a few verses later while sitting on a cloud.

It is a fact, no matter what you try to make it into.

All those cliche and labels do not erase the pretrib rapture dynamic

What you claim is settled is being settled by a flawed way of interpreting the Revelation. You are viewing it in a chronological way, when the book contains a number of different visions, not chronologically related. There is a narrative sequence, yes. But this does not suggest a continual chronological series of events. On the contrary, some of the visions repeat the same history.

So what you think is "settled" really is not settled. And no, there is no Pretrib Rapture in it--it has to be "read into" the book. In fact, there is no Pretrib Theology in the entire Bible. Yes, there are some people who are taken out of problem circumstances, and there were some people who were "raptured" to heaven. But there is absolutely no theology guaranteeing that generally, Christians are to be excused from troubled times, nor is there any theology suggesting that the Church will avoid the Reign of Antichrist. None!

 

[randyk]

Not a single rapture verse has ANY relation to the second coming on white horses

None of what you posted points to your position.
Zero.

Then you must not have paid any attention to what I just wrote. There are voices in heaven praising God over the circumstance that Jesus has come back to defeat the Antichristian Empire. That suggests that the Church is a participant in Jesus' coming to reign on earth. That is the "Rapture" of the Church!

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Interesting dodge, considering that you STILL DO NOT have any actual evidence that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers up to heaven.

Why do you presume that every verse/passage about the Second Coming MUST include ALL aspects of it?

Kinda like demanding specific wording of verses before you'll believe them.

btw, Rev 14 is simply stating the plan of harvesting the earth. There's nothing there about Jesus going to earth. There IS clear evidence from v.16 that Jesus is the cause of the harvesting on earth.

Where does he take them?

Rev 19 is clear. The army is following Him. Don't you know where He is going??

Do they ever mount the white horses?
Is this clear enough?

14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Educate me

One must pay attention in order to be educated or learn. And thanks for the opportunity.

 

[randyk]

we agree those born again that have died in christ are. in heaven.
The rapture is those alive .
The dead in christ are risen from tbe dead. ...raptured as a second dynamic

Those that already died in christ ...their bodies are still in the ground.... So rev 14 goes against what you believe.

Mortal bodies decay in the ground and dissolve into the elements, and are reused to form other bodies. This "human dust" is worthless with respect to the resurrection. "Resurrection" simply means the former person is bodily restored. We receive new glorified bodies from Christ in heaven. That's why we are raptured to heaven, to receive from Christ new glorified bodies.

The Rapture is not just the living, as I understand it. It is both the living and the dead joining in heaven, together receiving new immortal bodies simultaneously. Since the dead are already in heaven, they just remain there until we get there. And then we somehow participate in the revelation of Christ to the earth. He establishes his Kingdom on earth, and we reign with him for a thousand years. This may be more of a "spiritual rule" than a physical rule.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Where does he take them?
Do they ever mount the white horses?

Well, for one thing (as was said earlier in this thread or the related thread), the word for "armies" (in the plural), Rev19:14 (G4753), is never used in the plural when speaking of "angels" alone.



[that takes my mind back to the one use of "24" found in Numbers 1 and 10:4 ]

 

[FreeGrace2]

Rev 14 is during the trib.

As I noted.

Where is Jesus sitting in rev 14?

Where is Jesus sitting in rev 19?

14:14 a white cloud

19:11 a white horse

Your point, assuming there will be one?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You guys invoke dead men as your CORE beliefs.

I do? Really? Please point out where I have.

The CORE of your doctrine is darby

Never read him. Don't know his beliefs. However, I DO read the Bible. Every day. The NT from Acts - Rev monthly. For about 20 years.

Getting you guys redirected to the bible is frustrating.

Silly you. I don't need to be redirected. I'm there every day. Is 2 decades enough?

But if you call the bible desperation.....that is yet another red flag in your beliefs.

No, I call your defense of YOUR beliefs a desperation. It's quite difficult to prove what isn't true. Thought you would know that.

Since the Bible no verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven, why should anyone believe such a thing?

 

[randyk]

Precious friend, appreciate your honesty.

Indeed, we should all be honest--always! I don't divide up "milk" and "grace" the way you do. "Meat" simply indicates truths that bring us more maturity. "Milk" involves the initial truths of Salvation, which always remain true.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""Why do you presume that every verse/passage about the Second Coming MUST include ALL aspects of it?"""

Lets play this out.
You say Jesus sitting on a cloud harvesting with a sickle is actually Jesus coming on white horses, correct?

I just addressed this bit of FALSE claim. No, I don't.

Then, AFTER THAT HARVEST, AN ANGEL gathers, not Jesus, to armageddon....correct?

Give me specific verses. Knowing how messed up your understanding is, I need to know from where in the Bible you are referring.

 

[randyk]

And it's small misinterpretations like that which cause people to have all these other beliefs.

Sometimes yes.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Rev 14

The nail....final nail....in postrib rapture coffin ....poorly thought out....debunked.....theory
...originating from men in the early church....with the deception of israel destroyed and scattered.

How.....at this late hour...could anyone promote that nonsense?

Just what do you think Rev 14 proves, regarding your theory of a pretrib rapture?

 

[Absolutely]

Well, for one thing (as was said earlier in this thread or the related thread), the word for "armies" (in the plural), Rev19:14 (G4753), is never used in the plural when speaking of "angels" alone.



[that takes my mind back to the one use of "24" found in Numbers 1 and 10:4 ]

I am asking him where God takes the raptured saints.

He says " not heaven"

In rev 14 for example,firstfruits Jews are in heaven. Then Jesus gathers from the earth.

No telling where you guys think they end up.
Bizarre

 

[Absolutely]

A combine full of wheat turns around and dumps it on the cut field.

Thats a good position ...i guess.

SMH