Believing and Receiving the Holy Ghost

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#1
Nov 27, 2018
5,295
1,111
113
#1
The record of the Samaritan conversion points to the fact that the Holy Ghost is not automatically received when a person believes the gospel message. Further the record should prompt a question from it's readers. How did Philip and the others know that the Samaritans had not received the Holy Ghost? (Acts 8:15-17) What was missing? (Acts 2:4, 8:18, 10:45-46, 11:17-18, 19:6)

Acts 8:12-17
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#3
Jul 3, 2015
61,952
30,928
113
#3
Wansvic said:
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria
had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Click to expand...
This in itself is perplexing, since the apostles were there in Samaria with
Jesus for two days as He stayed among the Samaritans. From John 4:

Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in Jesus because of the
woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” So when the Samaritans
came to Him, they asked Him to stay with them, and He stayed two days.

And many more believed because of His message. They said to the woman,
“We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves,
and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world.”

Perhaps the point is "to the Jew first" and only after the "official"
giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost following Christ's resurrection.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#4
Jan 13, 2016
17,334
3,733
113
#4
Wansvic said:
The record of the Samaritan conversion points to the fact that the Holy Ghost is not automatically received when a person believes the gospel message. Further the record should prompt a question from it's readers. How did Philip and the others know that the Samaritans had not received the Holy Ghost? (Acts 8:15-17) What was missing? (Acts 2:4, 8:18, 10:45-46, 11:17-18, 19:6)

Acts 8:12-17
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Click to expand...
One should not get doctrine for the body of Christ from the book of Acts. It is a transition book from the Jew to the Gentile. The Lord makes things clear through Paul's writings how to receive the Holy Spirit. It's through believing the gospel. See Ephesians 1.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#5
Nov 27, 2018
5,295
1,111
113
#5
John146 said:
One should not get doctrine for the body of Christ from the book of Acts. It is a transition book from the Jew to the Gentile. The Lord makes things clear through Paul's writings how to receive the Holy Spirit. It's through believing the gospel. See Ephesians 1.
Click to expand...
The book of Acts documents the ministry of the Apostles. The epistles are letters sent to those believers who have already been born again.

The Acts account of Paul's interaction with the Ephesian disciples outlines the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation that he presented to them. Their belief and obedience to the message resulted in their being filled with the Holy Spirit of promise referenced in Ephesians 1:13.

Keep in mind that the Ephesian church consisted of both Jews and Gentiles.


Acts 19:1-6
"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."


Eph 1:13-14
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,"
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#6
Nov 27, 2018
5,295
1,111
113
#6
ResidentAlien said:
All I can say is I don't know. It's a mysterious passage.
Click to expand...
What was missing? See Acts 2:4, 8:18, 10:45-46, 11:17-18, 19:6. In all cases there was evidence of one receiving the infilling of the Holy Ghost.
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
#7
Apr 21, 2021
8,502
3,728
113
#7
Like I said, I don't know what was missing. Perhaps you could educate me.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#8
Nov 27, 2018
5,295
1,111
113
#8
Magenta said:
This in itself is perplexing, since the apostles were there in Samaria with
Jesus for two days as He stayed among the Samaritans. From John 4:

Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in Jesus because of the
woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” So when the Samaritans
came to Him, they asked Him to stay with them, and He stayed two days.

And many more believed because of His message. They said to the woman,
“We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves,
and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world.”

Perhaps the point is "to the Jew first" and only after the "official"
giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost following Christ's resurrection.
Click to expand...
The NT spiritual rebirth experience was not available until after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

The scripture makes a clear reference to the fact a person does not automatically receive the Holy Spirit upon belief in the gospel message. According to the following scriptures Acts 2:4, 8:18, 10:45-46, 11:17-18, 19:6, speaking in tongues will occur when a person is filled with the Holy Ghost. This is how Philip was able to determine that the Samaritans had not received the Holy Spirit. Notice the scripture says that Simon "saw" the Samaritans receive the Holy Ghost when the apostles laid hands upon them. Peter made a similar comment about seeing and hearing when the Holy Spirit is given. (Acts 2:33)
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#11
Nov 27, 2018
5,295
1,111
113
#11
John146 said:
One should not get doctrine for the body of Christ from the book of Acts. It is a transition book from the Jew to the Gentile. The Lord makes things clear through Paul's writings how to receive the Holy Spirit. It's through believing the gospel. See Ephesians 1.
Click to expand...
The account in Acts 19 took place over 20 years after the initial experiences happened to Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles. (Acts 2, 8, 10) This speaks to the truth that the initial message continued on with Paul. As stated the Ephesian church consisted of both Jews and Gentiles. Paul's message to both groups was always the same.

Acts 19:1-6
"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.


3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#12
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#12
John146 said:
One should not get doctrine for the body of Christ from the book of Acts. It is a transition book from the Jew to the Gentile. The Lord makes things clear through Paul's writings how to receive the Holy Spirit. It's through believing the gospel. See Ephesians 1.
Click to expand...
The natural man before he has been born again, will not, and indeed, cannot discern the things of the Spirit 1 Cor 2:14. When God gives a person new spiritual life by putting the Holy Spirit within him, he is a new born babe in Christ and does not understand the gospel until he grows in knowledge, to maturity by the hearing of the word taught by those who have matured enough to understand the gospel. Believing the gospel is not the cause of your receiving the Holy Spirit. Believing the gospel is the product of God putting the Holy Spirit within you in the new birth by his grace, without any action on the part of mankind.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#13
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,781
113
#13
Wansvic said:
The record of the Samaritan conversion points to the fact that the Holy Ghost is not automatically received when a person believes the gospel message.
Click to expand...
This was the EXCEPTION and there was a good reason. However, believing is immediately followed by the gift of the Holy Spirit. And no one should be misleading others since this is clearly the case in Acts 2 and Acts 10.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#14
May 23, 2012
13,112
4,376
113
#14
Wansvic said:
The record of the Samaritan conversion points to the fact that the Holy Ghost is not automatically received when a person believes the gospel message. Further the record should prompt a question from it's readers. How did Philip and the others know that the Samaritans had not received the Holy Ghost? (Acts 8:15-17) What was missing? (Acts 2:4, 8:18, 10:45-46, 11:17-18, 19:6)

Acts 8:12-17
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Click to expand...
the receiving of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands was not for salvation.

Jesus said: in John 14:17

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; (they knew the Holy Spirit Jesus said) for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The Holy Spirt comes into the person when they are saved and upon the person to empower them to be a witness
Jesus said in Acts 1:8

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus did Not say here You will be saved once the Holy Spirit comes upon you why? Because they were saved already.

Jesus said You will receive power to be a witness, and he Said the Holy Spirit will come upon you he did not say and in you as HE did in John 14:17 why?

Because in John 14:17 Jesus had not yet risen from the dead but in John 20:22 Jesus said after he had risen from the dead and came to them

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Jesus then said to them go and wait to receive power from on High, Jesus did not say wait to be saved.
This is very much the same thing we see in the Old Testament when the Spirit of the Lord came upon Prophets, Judges, Kings, and priests. NOw Jesus is teaching in John14 and 15 what the Holy Spirit will do is 1. be in you and 2. come upon you to empower you to be a witness. We have a habit of limiting God as HE can't be in a person and not be upon them to do are all prophets? do all speak in tongues? can all who are saved? Yes, as long as the Holy Spirit comes upon the yielding person, or do you thing the Holy Spirit will just make you obey God? Force you to do it. No. That doesn't mean you are not saved it means you are not mature yet and God is working with you. Yet you are still saved.
 
S

SophieT

Guest
#16
#16
Wansvic said:
The NT spiritual rebirth experience was not available until after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

The scripture makes a clear reference to the fact a person does not automatically receive the Holy Spirit upon belief in the gospel message. According to the following scriptures Acts 2:4, 8:18, 10:45-46, 11:17-18, 19:6, speaking in tongues will occur when a person is filled with the Holy Ghost. This is how Philip was able to determine that the Samaritans had not received the Holy Spirit. Notice the scripture says that Simon "saw" the Samaritans receive the Holy Ghost when the apostles laid hands upon them. Peter made a similar comment about seeing and hearing when the Holy Spirit is given. (Acts 2:33)
Click to expand...

from what I understand, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit upon salvation, but I do think scripture indicates being 'filled' with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is a separate occurence

and that has created endless debate and arguing all over the place .. many threads in this forum about that

I'll add that I don't think anyone is going to change their mind on what they believe
 
Blade

Blade

Well-known member
#17
Nov 19, 2019
1,814
636
113
#17
Amen Luke 11:13.. strange that now we don't have to ask "have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed". To then even ask them "have you asked according to Luke 11:13" can get you into trouble :) I can't speak for anyone else but when I asked they prayed.. it was like night and day.. "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth"

So just who was He talking to before that? Were they not believers/Christians? So ask.....ooh Song playing Counsel of the Holy.. Petra!
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#18
Nov 27, 2018
5,295
1,111
113
#18
Nehemiah6 said:
This was the EXCEPTION and there was a good reason. However, believing is immediately followed by the gift of the Holy Spirit. And no one should be misleading others since this is clearly the case in Acts 2 and Acts 10.
Click to expand...
Not true. Paul made it clear the experiences take place separately. No need to ask the question "Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed?" if receiving the Holy Ghost takes place when one believes. (Acts 19:1-6)
 
Aidan1

Aidan1

Well-known member
#19
Mar 17, 2021
1,680
705
113
#19
Wansvic said:
The record of the Samaritan conversion points to the fact that the Holy Ghost is not automatically received when a person believes the gospel message. Further the record should prompt a question from it's readers. How did Philip and the others know that the Samaritans had not received the Holy Ghost? (Acts 8:15-17) What was missing? (Acts 2:4, 8:18, 10:45-46, 11:17-18, 19:6)

Acts 8:12-17
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Click to expand...
You point out an one time expierience when it was revealed that the gospel is also for the samaritians, what was before unthinkable. And makeing from this an doctrine.
Thats man made thinking, but not biblical teaching.
 
Wansvic

Wansvic

Well-known member
#20
Nov 27, 2018
5,295
1,111
113
#20
SophieT said:
I'll add that I don't think anyone is going to change their mind on what they believe
Click to expand...
I do understand that at times people will refuse to accept what others present from the word. But that doesn't hinder me from continuing to share it. Thankfully we are not tasked with making them believe one thing or another. According to Paul it is God who provides revelation. Our job is to continue to plant and at other times water the word that has already been planted in someone by another person.

Food for thought:
The word of God is alive. Once planted and watered like a natural seed it will bring forth fruit. We see this principle mentioned by Paul, "I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase."1 Cor 3:6

How a seed of truth is planted and watered, or by whom is not what's important. What is important is the Word of God has been implanted in a person’s soul. There can be no fruit without the planting and continual watering of a seed.

The Holy Ghost reveals truth to individuals by drawing the implanted word of God to the surface of one’s consciousness at appointed times.

The Holy Ghost gives revelation or certainty of a truth by drawing one’s attention to scriptures that harmonize with one another. God’s truth will always be confirmed within His word. Erroneous ideas result from using isolated scriptures in an attempt to establish a particular truth.

It is important to remember that God's Word will never contradict itself. When scriptures seem to defy one another the problem is not the Word. The problem will always be found in an individual's personal interpretation.

The only way to be assured that a particular scripture pertains to a given subject is when the context of 2 or 3 other scriptures line up with the scripture in question. This principle is what confirms one's understanding is correct. (2 Cor 13:1) “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”
 
You must log in or register to reply here.