Shroud of Turin—real or fake, and why?
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The verses do not say the linen was in the shape of a shroud.. That is something either someone has assumed or made up.. These scriptures give no detail as to the actual shape the linen was in..
But in the Gospel of John it gives more detail..
John 20: KJV
3 "Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. {4} So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. {5} And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. {6} Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, {7} And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself."
Note
1) Linen cloths so not a one piece shroud. but multiple pieces of cloth..
2) The napkin So Jesus had a small cloth wrapped around his head it was only big enough for his head.
The shroud of turin is a one piece cloth that has the imprint of an entire body.. Reading John makes it clear that the shroud of turin is not what Jesus was wrapped in..
But in the Gospel of John it gives more detail..
John 20: KJV
3 "Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. {4} So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. {5} And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. {6} Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, {7} And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself."
Note
1) Linen cloths so not a one piece shroud. but multiple pieces of cloth..
2) The napkin So Jesus had a small cloth wrapped around his head it was only big enough for his head.
The shroud of turin is a one piece cloth that has the imprint of an entire body.. Reading John makes it clear that the shroud of turin is not what Jesus was wrapped in..
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Mar_15:46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
Luk_23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
This is the shroud. Joseph took Christ off the cross and put this linen shroud over him. John leaves this out and only addresses what others did with the body afterward.
Joh 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
Joh 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
Joh 19:40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
As you see, John leaves out that Joseph was the first to cover Jesus with linen. Later, people come to the grave and add things like spices and linen clothes and the napkin.
Luk_23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
This is the shroud. Joseph took Christ off the cross and put this linen shroud over him. John leaves this out and only addresses what others did with the body afterward.
Joh 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
Joh 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
Joh 19:40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
As you see, John leaves out that Joseph was the first to cover Jesus with linen. Later, people come to the grave and add things like spices and linen clothes and the napkin.
No one came in later because the Pilate organised a guard to be places over the tomb because the Jewish high priests where afraid that the followers of Jesus would come and steal the body of Jesus and hide it so they could claim that Jesus was raised from the dead..
Matthew 27: KJV
62 "¶ Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, {63} Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. {64} Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first. {65} Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can. {66} So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch."
Matthew 27: KJV
62 "¶ Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, {63} Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. {64} Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first. {65} Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can. {66} So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch."
The soldiers only made sure the body wasn't taken. When I said later I didn't mean much later. People followed Joseph but it is unclear if they were right behind or followed him 10 min after he went forth.
Luk 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
Luk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
Luk 23:53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
Luk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
All the more reason to always harmonize all four Gospels. The Synoptic Gospels generally have the same events (but not necessarily in the same order), but John's Gospel is unique. He picked out only seven miracles, and even there five of them were not even recorded by the others!
However, after the resurrection and the incidents at the tomb, there is no further mention of the linen cloth or shroud. If one were to hazard a guess, the angels who visited the tomb that day may have removed everything from the tomb so that the shroud would not become an object of veneration. They may have even removed the cross, the crown of thorns, the nails, etc. from Golgotha. As we know, all of Christ's clothing was taken by the soldiers.
In any event, very early in the history of the Catholic church, relics began to be venerated superstitiously. And now the shroud is one of those relics.
However, after the resurrection and the incidents at the tomb, there is no further mention of the linen cloth or shroud. If one were to hazard a guess, the angels who visited the tomb that day may have removed everything from the tomb so that the shroud would not become an object of veneration. They may have even removed the cross, the crown of thorns, the nails, etc. from Golgotha. As we know, all of Christ's clothing was taken by the soldiers.
In any event, very early in the history of the Catholic church, relics began to be venerated superstitiously. And now the shroud is one of those relics.
That's a lot of guessing. Three is no reason to believe the angels took anything. Seems far more probable that his followers took what remained.
Joh 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
Joh 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
As you see, the angels had not taken the clothes or napkin. I don't believe they took the linen shroud from Joseph either.
Joh 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
Joh 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.
As you see, the angels had not taken the clothes or napkin. I don't believe they took the linen shroud from Joseph either.
I don't agree at all, to be honest, and please don't take it as disrespect at all, but you interpretation sounds like one you're trying to fit to a preconceived notion. You're adding to scripture to make it fit what you want. This verse, John 20:5-7 it worded very clearly. This bible version is the only one you can even make this argument with,
"5 And stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself "
There is no way you can make this "face cloth, which had been on Jesus head", some napkin brought later. What are you even talking about? This verse alone makes it so clear, by Gods word, that the shroud is fake. If that is not enough, lets look at Luke 24:12 real quick.
‘Peter got up and ran to the tomb and stooping down and looking in, he saw the strips of linen cloths alone by themselves, and he went home, wondering about what had happened’
I think, and this is only my opinion, supported by scripture, but my opinion in it none the less, God has made it pretty clear these wrappings were more than one piece, and not only that, because that wouldn't necessarily rule the shroud out on it's own, but God tells us that one of the pieces was one that covered His heads. Also it's said over and over that He was "wrapped" in these cloth"s", They called them wrappings, and honestly you don't describe covering someone in a shroud that way. It just doesn't make sense really.
Anyway I put a couple biblical body shots out there to this shroud, how do you think through and past these huge problems enough to still believe it's real?
"5 And stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself "
There is no way you can make this "face cloth, which had been on Jesus head", some napkin brought later. What are you even talking about? This verse alone makes it so clear, by Gods word, that the shroud is fake. If that is not enough, lets look at Luke 24:12 real quick.
‘Peter got up and ran to the tomb and stooping down and looking in, he saw the strips of linen cloths alone by themselves, and he went home, wondering about what had happened’
I think, and this is only my opinion, supported by scripture, but my opinion in it none the less, God has made it pretty clear these wrappings were more than one piece, and not only that, because that wouldn't necessarily rule the shroud out on it's own, but God tells us that one of the pieces was one that covered His heads. Also it's said over and over that He was "wrapped" in these cloth"s", They called them wrappings, and honestly you don't describe covering someone in a shroud that way. It just doesn't make sense really.
Anyway I put a couple biblical body shots out there to this shroud, how do you think through and past these huge problems enough to still believe it's real?
methinks someones hung up on 'synoptics' and doesnt really read scriptures.
Tip. go read all Four Gospels again. They are all different versions of what lots of people remembered about Jesus.
They all have different accounts just as in real life some people remember some things, other remember something else. They agree in some aspects, and not others.
If you hae a problem with that, then you are going to always have a huge problem dealing with people who see things differently from your perspective.
Tip. go read all Four Gospels again. They are all different versions of what lots of people remembered about Jesus.
They all have different accounts just as in real life some people remember some things, other remember something else. They agree in some aspects, and not others.
If you hae a problem with that, then you are going to always have a huge problem dealing with people who see things differently from your perspective.
What do you make of the fact that the synoptics (Matthew, Mark and Luke) disagree with John on the method of burial?
The synoptics say He was wrapped in a "shroud" and John says he was wrapped "in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews."
The synoptics say He was wrapped in a "shroud" and John says he was wrapped "in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews."
The Greek word in the synoptics which is translated various ways is σινδόνι (sindoni): fine linen or a linen cloth. As opposed to John— ὀθονίοις (othoniois): A linen bandage, a wrapping. The idea in John is clearly a winding but in the synoptics it's a single piece of cloth. It seems the ESV is the only one that uses the word "shroud," but it's not wrong. The meaning of the Greek is a single burial cloth, a.k.a. a shroud.
Jesus body was defintiely wrapped in linen but it wasnt that particular shroud they are showing in Turin. Is my take.
Nobody is denying that Jesus wasnt wrapped up.
Im more leaning toward the one at Turin was someones clever fake shroud, draped over a dummy/statue and purported to be imprinted with Jesus blood stains. When people wrap a dead body, they dont throw over a sheet over their head because that body would actuallyhave to be standing upright. People dont usually stand dead bodies upright because they cant even stand. They have to lie down. But that turin shroud seems like it was draped over not actually wrapped AROUND the body.
Talk to any undertaker they would know.
Nobody is denying that Jesus wasnt wrapped up.
Im more leaning toward the one at Turin was someones clever fake shroud, draped over a dummy/statue and purported to be imprinted with Jesus blood stains. When people wrap a dead body, they dont throw over a sheet over their head because that body would actuallyhave to be standing upright. People dont usually stand dead bodies upright because they cant even stand. They have to lie down. But that turin shroud seems like it was draped over not actually wrapped AROUND the body.
Talk to any undertaker they would know.
Watch the video in post 38 then tell me if you still feel that way.
https://christianchat.com/threads/shroud-of-turin—real-or-fake-and-why.200221/post-4604267
https://christianchat.com/threads/shroud-of-turin—real-or-fake-and-why.200221/post-4604267
Nope I didn't bring any evidence, as long as you don't count Gods word as evidence. I'm simply sharing my position on the matter, I'm not here to convince anyone. I believe God is very specific in this matter and also didn't leave relics to be lifted up as false idols. I want to be clear that I am not accusing you or anyone else of doing this, I didn't mean this as an insult to you at all, I was just sharing why I believe He was careful not to leave these kinds of evidence behind. You believe what you want to believe and I respect your right to, but respect my right to do so as well, and to share my view too. I believe the fact that God inspired the writers of scripture to make clear that the wrappings used to wrap Jesus in were more than 1 piece, and not only that but 1 piece was a head covering. To me God
made sure that was in there specifically for this very reason, we as Christians have to weight EVERYTHING by His word, and that's what I believe it clearly says. You can say it's "no evidence" but quit frankly that doesn't reflect a very high regard for His word. That's all you and I will Trust His Spirit to lead people to the truth.
Have a great day brother, like I said at first I do not at all, ever, think this is a subject worth any degree of division between any of us. The last thing I want to add about things of this nature when we as His children are dealing with them. If science can be used to "prove" Jesus was true, then it can be used to disprove it too, we are not to look to the things of this world. Lets say all this scientific evidence "proves" the shroud to be true, and Johnny believes because he was convinced by this "proof", then something else comes along and proves that it was a fake the whole time, then what happens to this false converts faith? That's right, gone. These are just my feelings on why I not only believe the shroud is not authentic, but why we shouldn't really care if it is or not. When we are born again we are reconciled to God, we are connected to Him always, what's the point of a shroud?
Have a great day man.
made sure that was in there specifically for this very reason, we as Christians have to weight EVERYTHING by His word, and that's what I believe it clearly says. You can say it's "no evidence" but quit frankly that doesn't reflect a very high regard for His word. That's all you and I will Trust His Spirit to lead people to the truth.
Have a great day brother, like I said at first I do not at all, ever, think this is a subject worth any degree of division between any of us. The last thing I want to add about things of this nature when we as His children are dealing with them. If science can be used to "prove" Jesus was true, then it can be used to disprove it too, we are not to look to the things of this world. Lets say all this scientific evidence "proves" the shroud to be true, and Johnny believes because he was convinced by this "proof", then something else comes along and proves that it was a fake the whole time, then what happens to this false converts faith? That's right, gone. These are just my feelings on why I not only believe the shroud is not authentic, but why we shouldn't really care if it is or not. When we are born again we are reconciled to God, we are connected to Him always, what's the point of a shroud?
Have a great day man.
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