Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
What??!! I resent your FALSE claim, esp since you don't answer my questions.

If it were true, the Bible would say so. You believe what the Bible doesn't teach.

You see, it is you who don't understand what sovereignty means. To you, it apparently means puppetmaster or robot maker.

See? The verse does NOT INCLUDE "causes people to come to faith". There are NO verses that teach that God causes anyone to believe.

I just gave you one, but you reject it. Oh well.

Please read my post above. Then, please explain what you "gave" me. Your comment has NO relevance to my post.

You claim election is to salvation but you can't quote any verse that says so.
You claim God chooses who will believe, but you can't quote any verse that says so.

You WON'T address my charge that if God chooses who will believe but condemns those who didn't believe because He didn't choose them to believe, is a horrendously unfair and evil plan.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All on your own?

If God caused me to believe, please show me the verse that teaches that He does.

God had no part in causing you to believe?

Nope. If He did, then prove it from Scripture. All you've given are a bunch of talking points, but NO Scripture.

I hope that at some point, the fact will sink into your head that your views are NOT supported by Scripture.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Your claims continue to be unsupported from Scripture.


Just talking points. There have been few verses in any of your posts.


Another hugely faulty presumption. As if God's sovereignty is in some kind of competition with man's freedom to choose.

In addition to a failure to understand 'grace', Calvinism fails to understand free will. It's not a power in any sense of the word.

It's a condition of freedom to make choices. There is no power in choice.

Again, you cannot explain how man is accountable for his actions if he doesn't have free choice.

Calvinism claims God makes all the choices. Nonsense. The Bible itself says that "man is without excuse".

Why? Because man is accountable for his actions. That REFUTES Calvinism, but your talking points keep you from seeing the truth.


How come you CAN'T find ANY verses that support these claims???

There is only a list of Calvinist talking points. Nothing from the Bible.

I provided verses in prior messages. No need to keep sending them when you flat out reject them.

Is God sovereign or is man sovereign?

 

[FreeGrace2]

And what work of God is that? Is it conviction or belief?

Your comment is directed to JerryInBostn, but I can't resist the question. It's a great one to give Calvinsts.

The work of God in salvation is called GRACE. That is His work. Christ paid the sin debt on the cross for everyone. Yes, you are reading that correctly. Jesus died for everyone. But that doesn't save anyone. But it does ALLOW everyone to accept the free gift that Jesus has for everyone. The gift is given to those who believe. John 5:24.

 

[JerryInBoston]

If God caused me to believe, please show me the verse that teaches that He does.


Nope. If He did, then prove it from Scripture. All you've given are a bunch of talking points, but NO Scripture.

I hope that at some point, the fact will sink into your head that your views are NOT supported by Scripture.

Wow. You're prideful belief that only you played a role in your coming to faith, and God played no part, is heresy.

 

[FreeGrace2]

First off, we are all spiritually dead, sinful and fallen, completely unrighteous and wholly deserving of hell. None of can save ourselves, and it is only by God's sovereign authority that HE extends HIS sovereign grace to prompt those that will respond and finally do come to repentance and faith.

This really reveals the depth of your confusion. Yes, everyone is born spirutally dead. That isn't a Calvin point. It's a fact.

And, yes, no one can save themselves. But the phrase "to prompt those that will respond and finally do come to repentance and faith" seems rather UN-calvinistic. What gives here? Are you beginning to see the truth? You have been claiming that God causes people to believe. You know, the ones He has chosen to believe. Yet here, you've switched gears and seem to be coming around.

As you point out Ephesians 1:13 "having heard and believed the word of truth. " The cause of belief is God's word.

No, the cause of belief is from the conscience, which God has given to all mankind. Rom 2:14,15.

To the elect, HE causes to repent and come to faith.

How come there aren't ANY verses that say this?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I provided verses in prior messages. No need to keep sending them when you flat out reject them.

Providing verses that DO NOT support what you claim doesn't count for anything.

Is God sovereign or is man sovereign?

Of course God is sovereign. But you fail to grasp the meaning of sovereignty. You treat God's sovereignty like a puppet master, jerking the strings of mankind. Some this way, and others that way. That is hideous and unbiblical.

Or like a robot maker. Same principle.

But you cannot find any Scripture that indicates such an idea.

God's sovereignty doesn't mean He makes all the choices in His universe. Sad that so many believers have been deceived into this kind of false thinking.

God's plan was to create man with the freedom of choice. And we see that in Adam. He was free to eat of the forbidden tree, and he did. Fully knowing the consequences for doing so. Now, that's rebellion.

If man is accountable, that proves he is free to make choices. But, if man is NOT free (no free will), then man CANNOT be held accountable for what God determines that he will do.

 

[Kidron]

God's word caused you to come to faith. That is the power of God working in you. It's not something you did, but God working in you. Without God working in you, you'd not have come to faith.

God working "In" a Christ Rejector?
Really?
That's an interesting Concept.


Its like this....when the Gospel is preached, the Holy Spirit convicts. He takes the word of truth and he reveals it.
What God does not do is force you to believe it.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Your comment is directed to JerryInBostn, but I can't resist the question. It's a great one to give Calvinsts.

The work of God in salvation is called GRACE. That is His work. Christ paid the sin debt on the cross for everyone. Yes, you are reading that correctly. Jesus died for everyone. But that doesn't save anyone. But it does ALLOW everyone to accept the free gift that Jesus has for everyone. The gift is given to those who believe. John 5:24.

God ended all HIS work after the 6th Day of creation. See Genesis 2:1. Grace is part of God's nature and freely given to the elect, and God's grace has been dispensed since the fall of man. Jesus died for anyone that believes, and not everyone does believe, because not everyone is elected. God chooses the elect to believe and be saved.

 

[JerryInBoston]

God working "In" a Christ Rejector?
Really?
That's an interesting Concept.


Its like this....when the Gospel is preached, the Holy Spirit convicts. He takes the word of truth and he reveals it.
What God does not do is force you to believe it.

God knows from eternity past who will respond and come to faith; they are called the elect.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Wow. You're prideful belief that only you played a role in your coming to faith, and God played no part, is heresy.

You just don't have a clue about what I believe. I never ever said that God 'played no part'.

Here are the facts. Please pay attention and remember.

1. God created mankind with a conscience. Rom 2:14,15 This is how man figures out what is right and wrong.
2. God created mankind with freedom of choice. Proven in Gen 3.
3. God's creation makes man accountable for NOT recognizing God as Creator and being thankful to Him. Rom 1:29-21.

So, God HAS obviously played a part.

1. He created man with a conscience with which to make choices.
2. He created the universe to reveal Himself and His attributes to mankind, so that man has no excuse.
3. God the Spirit convicts man of sin.

All this has already been done by God. He has already "made the first move".

All man can to is accept the gift offered in grace. Is that too much to swallow for a Calvinist? Why?

Is the act of accepting a gift that is offered a work?

 

[JerryInBoston]

This really reveals the depth of your confusion. Yes, everyone is born spirutally dead. That isn't a Calvin point. It's a fact.

And, yes, no one can save themselves. But the phrase "to prompt those that will respond and finally do come to repentance and faith" seems rather UN-calvinistic. What gives here? Are you beginning to see the truth? You have been claiming that God causes people to believe. You know, the ones He has chosen to believe. Yet here, you've switched gears and seem to be coming around.


No, the cause of belief is from the conscience, which God has given to all mankind. Rom 2:14,15.


How come there aren't ANY verses that say this?

The cause of belief is God and HIS Word. God knows from eternity past all that will come to faith; the elect.

 

[Kidron]

When God wills someone to believe/come to repentance and faith, God will get HIS way, .

The reason God does not choose some for hell and other for heaven, is because God is not a cosmic psychopath.

And to teach that the Cross is "only available for some" is to teach that God chooses people to burn in the lake of fire.
Is that "God is love"?
Is that Jesus saying...>"when you've see me, you've seen the Father"?

Jesus is God. So, where in the NT did He ever tell anyone.....>"nope, you are not allow to believe in me"

Also, the reason a person's name is not in the Lamb's book of Life is because they chose to reject Christ and they died a Christ Rejector.
That's freewill.

Now, Look at the way some portray God as an evil psychopath........ They teach that God wont allow some people to believe in Jesus.
So, how can that be the same God who died on the Cross as John 3:16 ????.......... as it would be a evil psychopathic God that BLAMES you for rejecting Christ as the reason you go to hell, and He caused you to not believe.
So, that theology is Spiritual Insanity.

 

[Kidron]

The cause of belief is God and HIS Word. God knows from eternity past all that will come to faith; the elect.

Knowing who will be born again, is not the same as causing them to be born again.

God knows everything.
He knows what you are thinking right now.....So, is He causing you to think it?
He knows what you will say next.....So, did He cause you to write it?

That God knows what you will do, is not the same as God causing you to do it.

"foreknowledge" is simple knowing what is going to happen, before it happens.
Knowing is not causing,.......its just knowing.

 

[JerryInBoston]

I never ever said that God 'played no part'.

I asked: "God had no part in causing you to believe?"

You answered: "Nope. If He did, then prove it from Scripture. All you've given are a bunch of talking points, but NO Scripture."

Then you stated: "I never ever said that God 'played no part'"

Which is it?

 

[Kidron]

God knows from eternity past who will respond and come to faith; they are called the elect.

Faith elects.
God redeems.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Faith elects.
God redeems.

God elects. Faith justifies.

 

[Kidron]

God elects. Faith justifies.

If you want to consider the offer of the Blood of Jesus as "to ALL who will come", John 3:16.....and if they believe, they are "elected" "to be conformed"....... then that is good sound Theology.

If you choose to believe hyper-calvanism, that teaches that God chooses to burn some in the lake of fire for NO REASON, and wont let them believe and be saved, then that is theological heresy that accuses God, falsely.

 

[JerryInBoston]

If you want to consider the offer of the Blood of Jesus as "to ALL who will come", John 3:16.....and if they believe, they are "elected" "to be conformed"....... then that is good sound Theology.

If you choose to believe hyper-calvanism, that teaches that God chooses to burn some in the lake of fire for NO REASON, and wont let them believe and be saved, then that is theological heresy that accuses God, falsely.

The faithful are the elect. God knew from eternity past those that would be faithful. And HE knew from eternity past that HE would take on human form to provoke the world. And HE knew from eternity past those that would respond to the provocative notion that God took on human form for the purpose of reconciliation, which means that God also knew from eternity past all those that would not come to faith, and would not respond to HIS provocation.

Therefore, since God knows from eternity past who the predestinated elect are, and also knows that the predestinated elect are fallen and guilty sinners, God had to cause them to come to faith from out of their fallen state. It is the power of God almighty that causes someone to come to faith.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God ended all HIS work after the 6th Day of creation.

This surely reveals an ignorance of God's Word. Let's see what Jesus said about His Father.

John 5:17 - In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”

Would you care to repent of your error?

See Genesis 2:1.

"Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array."

Another glaring example of citing verses that DO NOT support your claim. There is nothing in Gen 2:1 that says that God stopped working. And Jesus directly refutes your false claim as well.

Grace is part of God's nature and freely given to the elect

Once again demonstrating a woeful ignorance of Scripture.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

For your claim to be true, you're going to have to prove that "all people" only refers to "the elect". Which will be impossible. The words are clear enough.

and God's grace has been dispensed since the fall of man. Jesus died for anyone that believes, and not everyone does believe

Another glaring example of ignorance of Scripture. There are NO verses that say that Jesus died ONLY for believers. That is false doctrine.

John 3:16 says "whosoever believes". That's unlimited in scope.

2 Cor 5-
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

John 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 4:42 - They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe. It doesn't say ONLY of those who believe.

because not everyone is elected. God chooses the elect to believe and be saved.

Repeating a claim does not make it closer to the truth. Repeating unbiblical and false doctrines won't earn any eternal rewards.