Biblical Eternal Security vs 'Calvinistic Eternal Security' -by Gregg Jackson

[JerryInBoston]

If this is true, why haven't you provided ANY verse to back up your claim?

God's sovereign grace saves those who believe.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

From all your talking points, it seems Calvinists don't really believe 1 Cor 1:21, even though it's clear enough.

Paul says it plainly that God, by HIS grace, mercy, and love, chose us to come to faith by gifting us with faith.

Ephesians 2:4-10: "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

 

[JerryInBoston]

I'll tell again what v.8 really says.

First, in the Greek, genders must match. The word "it" is feminine gender and "saved" is feminine gender. The word "faith" is masculine. So you may cease thinking that "it" refers back to faith. It doesn't.

This is the verse:

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this (salvation) is not from yourselves; it (salvation) is the gift of God.

Receiving a gift in NO WAY suggests or says that the recipient earned the gift. In fact, the very definition of "gift" means an unearned gift.

We don't work for gifts. We DO work for wages. As Rom 4:4,5 clearly explains.

First, I would like to thank you for provoking me to look deeper into that which I only had cursory knowledge in what I believe to be Biblical truths. The Bible is the source of all truth, and we all have the Holy Spirit as a guide to understand. So, too, did the ancient church fathers and the reformers, et alia, have as their guide God the Holy Spirit.

Though you repeatedly do, I do not call myself a "Calvinist." I do agree with some of what John Calvin taught. I also believe true some of what Arminus taught, and what Augustine taught, and what many other learned church fathers and theologians taught. The Holy Spirit leads and guides teachers and preachers and laymen alike.

I admit I am a work in progress in regard to gaining a fuller understanding of the depraved and wholly corrupt nature of man, the sovereign election of God, the offer of God's effectual grace, the original purpose of God and HIS plan of salvation by sending the Son to die on the cross for the definite redemption of the predestinated elect, and the perseverance of or, I think better put, the preservation of the saints.

Because we are all spiritually dead from sin, we are all delivered unto disobedience by God. God gave us over to disobedience, and did so to every human being, none are exempt, we are all wholly disobedient. A disobedient does not on their own one day decide to come to faith in order to be saved from their wretched disobedience. No, a disobedient is provoked by God's grace and mercy, is offered the gifts called salvation and faith, whereby some respond (the predestinated elect) and some do not respond (the reprobates).

Romans 11:32 "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." Notice it says "may" and does not say "will."

Romans 11:33 "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!" God's ways, not men's ways.


Romans 11:34-36 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." We don't counsel God by deciding on our own one day to come to faith. All things means all things, which mans that from and through HIM are we gifted salvation and faith. For if we say "Today I am going to put my faith in God ", we are saying "If it weren't for my sovereign decision to choose God, God never would have saved me." Scripture teaches God gifts us salvation and faith by HIS sovereign Grace, and not from any effort or sovereign decision on our part.

 

[JerryInBoston]

I'll tell again what v.8 really says.

First, in the Greek, genders must match. The word "it" is feminine gender and "saved" is feminine gender. The word "faith" is masculine. So you may cease thinking that "it" refers back to faith. It doesn't.

This is the verse:

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this (salvation) is not from yourselves; it (salvation) is the gift of God.

Receiving a gift in NO WAY suggests or says that the recipient earned the gift. In fact, the very definition of "gift" means an unearned gift.

We don't work for gifts. We DO work for wages. As Rom 4:4,5 clearly explains.

(Edited)

First, I would like to thank you for provoking me to look deeper into that which I only had cursory knowledge in what I believe to be Biblical truths. The Bible is the source of all truth, and we all have the Holy Spirit as a guide to understand. So, too, did the ancient church fathers and the reformers, et alia, have as their guide God the Holy Spirit.

Though you repeatedly do, I do not call myself a "Calvinist." I do agree with some of what John Calvin taught. I also believe true some of what Arminus taught, and what Augustine taught, and what many other learned church fathers and theologians taught. The Holy Spirit leads and guides teachers and preachers and laymen alike.

I admit I am a work in progress in regard to gaining a fuller understanding of the depraved and wholly corrupt nature of man, the sovereign election of God, the offer of God's effectual grace, the original purpose of God and HIS plan of salvation by sending the Son to die on the cross for the definite redemption of the predestinated elect, and the perseverance of or, I think better put, the preservation of the saints.

Because we are all spiritually dead from sin, we are all delivered unto disobedience by God. God gave us over to disobedience, and did so to every human being, none are exempt, we are all wholly disobedient. A disobedient does not on their own one day decide to come to faith in order to be saved from their wretched disobedience. No, a disobedient is provoked by God's grace and mercy, is offered the gifts called salvation and faith, whereby some respond (the predestinated elect) and some do not respond (the reprobates).

Romans 11:32 "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all."

Notice it says "may" and does not say "will."

Romans 11:33 "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!"

God's ways, not men's ways.


Romans 11:34-36 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen."

We don't counsel God by deciding on our own one day to come to faith. All things means all things, which means that from and through and to HIM are we gifted salvation and faith. For if we say "Today I am going to put my faith in God ", we are saying "If it weren't for my sovereign decision to choose God, God never would have saved me." Scripture teaches God gifts us salvation and faith by HIS sovereign Grace, and not from any effort or sovereign decision on our part.

When God by HIS sovereign grace gifts us with faith and salvation, God provokes our soul. To the predestinated elect who respond, all we do is say "Yes, Lord, save me." To the reprobates that don't respond, God gives them over to reprobate minds that they remain in complete disobedience.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Re: "this" (touto) in Ephesians 2:8, many "ancient exegetes specifically assert that ‘this’ refers back to a feminine noun [faith (pisteōs)] in Ephesians 2:8-9, seven taking touto to refer to ‘faith’ (Chrysostom, Jerome, Augustine, Theodoret, Fulgentius, Œcumenius, Theophylact), and one taking it to refer to ‘grace’ (John of Damascus). These interpreters were either native Greek speakers or, in the case of Jerome and Fulgentius, Latin speakers of undoubted Greek ability, or, in the case of Augustine, the greatest extant theologian of the first Millennium." ... "[A] neuter demonstrative [as in touto] can refer back to a masculine or feminine word."

I'll take their expert opinion over yours (no offense intended),

I made an error. Gettin' a bit forgetful. At biblehub.com the parsing of the key words show this:

"this" (which I never referred to anyway) is a demonstrative pronoun.
"it" is masculine
"saved" is masculine

Your whole argument here is based on an IRRELEVANT word, 'touto'.

Go to biblehub.com and see for yourself.

You've proven nothing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Re: "this" (touto) in Ephesians 2:8, many "ancient exegetes specifically assert that ‘this’ refers back to a feminine noun [faith (pisteōs)] in Ephesians 2:8-9, seven taking touto to refer to ‘faith’ (Chrysostom, Jerome, Augustine, Theodoret, Fulgentius, Œcumenius, Theophylact), and one taking it to refer to ‘grace’ (John of Damascus). These interpreters were either native Greek speakers or, in the case of Jerome and Fulgentius, Latin speakers of undoubted Greek ability, or, in the case of Augustine, the greatest extant theologian of the first Millennium." ... "[A] neuter demonstrative [as in touto] can refer back to a masculine or feminine word."

I'll take the forementioned experts' opinions over yours (no offense intended), that "this" refers back to "saved" and "faith". The experts say: salvation and faith are gifts of God and not of ourselves, not of works. So, stop boasting.

Once again, 'touto' isn't even RELEVANT to my point. I never mentioned it.

The sentence "IT is the gift of God" refers back to being saved, since "it" and "saved" are masculine.

The word "this" can refer to either, but that's NOT RELEVANT.

Focus, please.

 

[fredoheaven]

By God's sovereign grace (undeserved favor) we receive the gift of faith that causes us to believe. Ephesians 1:4 "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth."

Your proof text doesn’t even tell us the gifting of faith in order to believe. The passage is telling us about being “in him” or “in whom” which is very significant in God choosing part us in Christ, the time we believe in him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

First, I would like to thank you for provoking me to look deeper into that which I only had cursory knowledge in what I believe to be Biblical truths.

Right. The only way to understand God's Word.

The Bible is the source of all truth, and we all have the Holy Spirit as a guide to understand. So, too, did the ancient church fathers and the reformers, et alia, have as their guide God the Holy Spirit.

Well, be careful here. Paul told believers to NOT grieve (Eph 5:18) or quench 1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit.

So, when believers are guilty of doing these things, He ISN'T guiding that believer. They are out of fellowship and in sin/error.

Though you repeatedly do, I do not call myself a "Calvinist." I do agree with some of what John Calvin taught. I also believe true some of what Arminus taught, and what Augustine taught, and what many other learned church fathers and theologians taught. The Holy Spirit leads and guides teachers and preachers and laymen alike.

Your talking points are straight out of the Calvinist playbook. What you call yourself is immaterial. What you claim is the issue, and your claims are ALL Calvinistic.

I admit I am a work in progress in regard to gaining a fuller understanding of the depraved and wholly corrupt nature of man, the sovereign election of God, the offer of God's effectual grace, the original purpose of God and HIS plan of salvation by sending the Son to die on the cross for the definite redemption of the predestinated elect, and the perseverance of or, I think better put, the preservation of the saints.

We're all a work in progress. No believer will reach perfection until the redemption of our bodies.

Because we are all spiritually dead from sin, we are all delivered unto disobedience by God. God gave us over to disobedience

I hope by "us" you mean everyone in the human race.

and did so to every human being, none are exempt, we are all wholly disobedient.

Ok, good.

Romans 11:32 "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all." Notice it says "may" and does not say "will."
Romans 11:33 "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!" God's ways, not men's ways.
Romans 11:34-36 “For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?”
Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen."

We don't counsel God by deciding on our own one day to come to faith. All things means all things, which mans that from and through HIM are we gifted salvation and faith. [/QUOTE]
No, it doesn't mean that, and you STILL haven't provided any verse that actually says so.

For if we say "Today I am going to put my faith in God ", we are saying "If it weren't for my sovereign decision to choose God, God never would have saved me."

This is just a very faulty Calvinist opinion.

We receive the free gift of salvation through faith. It's passive on our part. Our faith doesn't obligate God. In fact, God obligated Himself when He devised the plan of salvation.

Scripture teaches God gifts us salvation and faith by HIS sovereign Grace

OK, please quote the verse that says that God gifts faith. I'd love to see the verse.

and not from any effort or sovereign decision on our part.

Believing the gospel is NOT a sovereign decision on our part.

Again, believing doesn't obligate God. He obligated Himself.

In fact, God is pleased to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

 

[fredoheaven]

Paul says it plainly that God, by HIS grace, mercy, and love, chose us to come to faith by gifting us with faith.

Ephesians 2:4-10: "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

I failed to see what you are saying of the gifting of faith as the passage telling us about. By his mercy, love and grace he saved us through faith operation. The Bible even says “…by grace you have been saved” . V.5 The order: Mercy, love and grace then gift of salvation not faith. Obviously, we are saved through faith operation. The passage is about God’s gift of salvation and not God’s gifting of faith. What is the gift of God according to Paul is salvation as Paul can say in Romans 6:23 that the gift of God is eternal life.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Once again, 'touto' isn't even RELEVANT to my point. I never mentioned it.

The sentence "IT is the gift of God" refers back to being saved, since "it" and "saved" are masculine.

The word "this" can refer to either, but that's NOT RELEVANT.

Focus, please.

Touto is absolutely relevant because the word(s) "it is" are not contained in the Greek manuscripts, but added by translators. Yes, focus.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Once again, 'touto' isn't even RELEVANT to my point. I never mentioned it.

The sentence "IT is the gift of God" refers back to being saved, since "it" and "saved" are masculine.

The word "this" can refer to either, but that's NOT RELEVANT.

Focus, please.

(Edited)

Touto is absolutely relevant because the word(s) "it is" are not contained in all the Greek manuscripts, but likely added later by scribes, and then taken for granted by some translators. Even the KJV translators italicized "it is" in Ephesians 2:8. Apparently those learned Greek and Latin scholars of King James's day believed "it is" was not of Paul but added by scribes. Yes, focus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Touto is absolutely relevant because the word(s) "it is" are not contained in the Greek manuscripts, but added by translators. Yes, focus.

Sure, let's DO focus. Words that are in italics were added by the Greek SCHOLARS who know Greek and the added words clarify the Greek words.

So, what is "of God"? Salvation is of God. And "of God" is masculine. And "faith" is still feminine.

So you STILL haven't proven anything. Salvation is of God. Not faith.

Rom 10:9 says plainly that "man believes with the heart".

What it doesn't say is that man believes with God's heart, or some such idea.

Man believes with his own heart.

 

[FreeGrace2]

(Edited)

Touto is absolutely relevant because the word(s) "it is" are not contained in all the Greek manuscripts, but likely added later by scribes, and then taken for granted by some translators. Even the KJV translators italicized "it is" in Ephesians 2:8. Apparently those learned Greek and Latin scholars of King James's day believed "it is" was not of Paul but added by scribes. Yes, focus.

Debunked. Again.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Debunked. Again.

No, not debuked by you. I'm with my friend James White on "Faith is a Gift." Though I generally agree with much of what James has to say, on this subject He's a Christian bother and scholar I completely trust.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, not debuked by you. I'm with my friend James White on "Faith is a Gift." Though I generally agree with much of what James has to say, on this subject He's a Christian bother and scholar I completely trust.

Not surprised. JW is a hard core Calvinist. Of course you would side with him and his views.

How can I trust Calvinists when none of their talking points can be found in the Bible??

I'm serious. I've kept asking you for verses that say what you keep claiming, and you STILL haven't provided any.

And I've refuted your claims with verses that directly and clearly refute your talking points.

 

[fredoheaven]

No, not debuked by you. I'm with my friend James White on "Faith is a Gift." Though I generally agree with much of what James has to say, on this subject He's a Christian bother and scholar I completely trust.

Not a fan of James White and what he is saying? thanks

 

[fredoheaven]

Not surprised. JW is a hard core Calvinist. Of course you would side with him and his views.

How can I trust Calvinists when none of their talking points can be found in the Bible??

I'm serious. I've kept asking you for verses that say what you keep claiming, and you STILL haven't provided any.

And I've refuted your claims with verses that directly and clearly refute your talking points.

Yes, they can't for they taking in a man's point of view not as what the Bible says of Paul as his manner, using reasoning out of scripture.
Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

 

[JerryInBoston]

Not surprised. JW is a hard core Calvinist. Of course you would side with him and his views.

How can I trust Calvinists when none of their talking points can be found in the Bible??

I'm serious. I've kept asking you for verses that say what you keep claiming, and you STILL haven't provided any.

And I've refuted your claims with verses that directly and clearly refute your talking points.

No, you've tried to refute, but you're wrong (maybe right on some peripheral matters). Faith is a gift just as salvation is a gift, both of which are by God's sovereign grace, and humans can do nothing to merit.

 

[JerryInBoston]

Not a fan of James White and what he is saying? thanks

I am. You're welcome.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, you've tried to refute, but you're wrong (maybe right on some peripheral matters).

I have repeatedly asked for verses that say what you claim, yet you haven't. And I HAVE provided verses that do say what I claim.

Faith is a gift just as salvation is a gift

Eph 2:8 doesn't support your claim.

both of which are by God's sovereign grace, and humans can do nothing to merit.

I do agree that grace EXCLUDES human effort.

 

[JerryInBoston]

I do agree that grace EXCLUDES human effort.

Good for you. Have a blessed day. 😄