Your Imput: Sound Doctrine

[RoosterNZ]

I won't argue "Predestination" any further than this.. you can accept or reject whatever you like from this.



Paul writes that before Jacob and Esau were born, or had done anything good or bad "in order that God's purpose of election might continue . . . the elder will serve the younger"(Rom.9:11,12). Paul specifically emphasizes that point by showing that before Jacob and Esau had done anything good or evil, one was chosen, the other rejected(Rom.9:13). This is in order to prove that the foundation of divine predestination is not in works; Paul writes that God "has mercy upon whomever He wills, and He hardens the heart of whomever He wills"(Rom.9:18). "Has not the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for dishonour?"(Rom.9:21). God is free to determine a purpose for election, but that purpose has nothing to do with man's desire or effort. Nothing is more clear in Romans nine, "it does not therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy"(Rom.9:16).

 

[KingdomGeneration]

While I do believe that one can forfeit their salvation, after all scripture does say that one's name can be removed from the book of life, I can understand the original Calvinistic perspective. I think it's important to point out that Calvin did indeed share the belief that sanctification and consecration are vital for a successful christiasn walk.

However, where I have issues is the concept of carnal christianity, which I've heard is roughly 50 years or so old. While I would agree that God does indeed extend a learning curve of sorts to new believers who are truly sincere, there are many religious minded people that are not sincere in their salvation who use this doctrine as a lisence to sin. I see it every day, several times a day.

Christ himself tells us that a good tree can not bare bad fruit and that a bad tree can not bare good fruit. I think everyone will agree that sin is indeed bad fruit. Considering so many religious minded people are using this doctrine to condone sinning in their own minds, could not the fruit of this doctrine be considered bad? In my opinion, I believe so.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Predestination aside, believing one can or cannot lose their salvation in no way affects their salvation. I don't call either view unsound doctrine but misguided or disputed doctrine. I believe a hall mark of sound doctrine is that it is agreed upon by all who are Christ's and does not cause division between Christ's own. Disputed doctrine may or may not be sound doctrine. I don't regard disputed doctrine that can be supported by either side from scripture to be unsound. Only in the mind of those who stick to one view or the other. My views are unsound to yours, and yours are unsound to mine.

 

[BLC]

Re: Your Input: Sound Doctrine

John 7:16,17 'Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.'

Think of what this is saying coming from the lips of Christ. Surely, the servant (you and I) is not greater than his master. Read verse 17 again. The doctrine that we have been given is from the Father. It is His doctrine. If Christ preached the Father's doctrine, do we say that His doctrine is not important for us to understand? Has Satan been successful in getting a stronghold in people's lives, discouraging them from the Father's doctrine?

Some have mentioned using a certain doctrine to excuse personal sin. But (Rom 6:17) says, 'But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you'. What is that form of doctrine that was delivered to us from the Father, that we are to obey?

How do we understand the following verses and are we to obey them?

Rom 16:17,18 'Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple'.

What is the doctrine we have learned? Are we going to say it only applies to the cardinal doctrines of the faith and not secondary doctrines? If we are to live by every word of God (Mt 4:4) and not add or take away from the words of prophecy of this book, nor privately interpret (2Pt 1:20) knowing that the scriptures can not be broken (John 10:35), then every word of God is sacred and inspired and should be esteemed and magnified even above God's name (Ps 138:2).

If all doctrine has no purpose then why does God esteem those that labor in the word and doctrine (1Tim 5:17)? Doctrine is very important and it has everything to do with our salvation. If that drives you nuts then you have a problem with the scriptures and what they teach.

Remember the words of Christ ... 'If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.'

 

[1still_waters]

Please don't turn this in to yet another OSAS vs non-OSAS thread guys. I'm reopening it.

 

[watchmen]

I gave a long list of false doctrine why did they jump on the OSAS thing any way? Is serving God so unthinkable that not having to must be deffended at all cost?

 

[BLC]

Re: Your Input: Sound Doctrine

Why don't we put the focus on good doctrine and leave the other off for awhile. Paul encouraged the young Timothy to do this.

1Tim 4:6 'If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained'.

 

[BLC]

Re: Your Input: Sound Doctrine

What do the scriptures teach about the blood of Christ and how does it apply to the believer? Some have showed concern about doctrine that does not pertain to salvation, but I think we can agree that the doctrine of the blood of Christ and the new covenant involve salvation. What did Christ say about His own blood and how was it taught in the NT? Can a person be truly saved and regenerated without the blood of Christ? What did the blood of Christ do to sin? Does the blood of Christ have anything to do with physical healing? When the blood purges the believer's conscience, what does that mean?

Try to keep your answers to a couple of paragraphs if you can!

 

[eric51]

Sound doctrine is actually found most easily in APOSTOLIC CREEDS such as the Nicene Creed, the Apostles Creed. Creeds were written to summarize the essentials of Christian faith. The Creed certainly expresses beliefs found in the NT. But often those beliefs in the NT are not clearly expressed inasmuch as they were not generally written to teach specific theology, and were written over a long period of time by different authors addressing different situations. Nothing in a Creed contradicts the bible, rather it elucidates what is found in the bible, connecting thoughts and placing articles of faith in a concise summary.

The Nicene Creed expresses so well the bare minimum of belief which comprises a Christian:

1. The Trinity
2. Jesus as the Son of God begotten by the Father
3. Jesus born of Mary
4. Jesus rose from the dead
5. Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead
6.God's kingdom will have no end
7. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, is God
8. Belief in the Resurrection of the dead

 

[Sinnner]

Concerning God's eternal redemption (eternal salvation) and the gift of eternal life, that is given by grace and through faith to everyone that believes upon the name of the LORD Jesus Christ, I would like to say one thing without going into it.

I could show you that this truth, concerning God's great salvation that can never be taken back by God once given nor lost by those who have received it by grace and through faith, has been taught since the beginning. And even by proving to you in all these areas of the scriptures that involve those listed below, some of you would not change your position because you have been persuaded otherwise. Here they are;

1. God taught Adam and Eve
2. The Patriarch's taught it
3. Moses taught it
4. David taught it
5. The Prophets taught it
6. The Apostles and disciples taught it
7. Jesus taught it as doctrine and with His life
8. The cross teaches it
9. The resurrection teaches it
10. The book of Revelation teaches it
11. Thief on the cross experienced it, having done nothing but believe
12. God is that very life

Anyone that does not believe it, it has to be said of them, that they deny it. To deny it, is to deny the very life of God who has given it. And by the logic of some of you, through the simple fact that you deny it, you can no longer have it because you walked away from it by your own denial of it.

These teachings (OSAS) have only been around for maybe 500 years, I have posted proff of this at an earlier time. I'm not going to do it again but what you say is false. OSAS is new age and is to say that you no longer need Jesus, I need him every day. It sounds like you have taken one of my posts where I stated exactley what you have tried to say and turn it around on the real truth. If you belive OSAS you are being fooled and if you are being fooled then you are a fool. Im done with this twisted web site. They should change it to OSAS.com or falsedoctrine.com

 

[watchmen]

These teachings (OSAS) have only been around for maybe 500 years, I have posted proff of this at an earlier time. I'm not going to do it again but what you say is false. OSAS is new age and is to say that you no longer need Jesus, I need him every day. It sounds like you have taken one of my posts where I stated exactley what you have tried to say and turn it around on the real truth. If you belive OSAS you are being fooled and if you are being fooled then you are a fool. Im done with this twisted web site. They should change it to OSAS.com or falsedoctrine.com

It is pretty foolish to believe that we can continue in sin, refuse to do the Father will, walk the wide path that leads to destruction, and still get into Heaven, just because at one point they may have asks Jesus into their heart and/or were baptized?

Satan is the only one than would have thought up this lie, and his ministers are the ones who teach it.

 

[watchmen]

Sound doctrine is actually found most easily in APOSTOLIC CREEDS such as the Nicene Creed, the Apostles Creed. Creeds were written to summarize the essentials of Christian faith. The Creed certainly expresses beliefs found in the NT. But often those beliefs in the NT are not clearly expressed inasmuch as they were not generally written to teach specific theology, and were written over a long period of time by different authors addressing different situations. Nothing in a Creed contradicts the bible, rather it elucidates what is found in the bible, connecting thoughts and placing articles of faith in a concise summary.

The Nicene Creed expresses so well the bare minimum of belief which comprises a Christian:

1. The Trinity
2. Jesus as the Son of God begotten by the Father
3. Jesus born of Mary
4. Jesus rose from the dead
5. Jesus will come again to judge the living and the dead
6.God's kingdom will have no end
7. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, is God
8. Belief in the Resurrection of the dead

What if someone only believes 2-8, will they be condemned to Hell?

 

[Jaykay104]

Watchmen, while I agree with you 100%, I can tell you from experience, talking about such issues is not worth the hassle.

Amen! How we trivialize certain things, but seeking to learn sound doctrine is a good thing.

 

[BLC]

Quote: 'It is pretty foolish to believe that we can continue in sin, refuse to do the Father will, walk the wide path that leads to destruction, and still get into Heaven, just because at one point they may have asks Jesus into their heart and/or were baptized'?

Anyone that makes a statement like that does not understand the grace of God and is very insecure about their relationship with God. The relationship that we have with God is one of grace and faith. We are human, our old sin nature was never eradicated and we need to walk and be filled with the Spirit and be quickened by God's word to keep from fulfilling the lust of the flesh and to keep from sin. If we fail and fall into sin, we confess our sin to God, He restores us by grace and we go on by faith. There is no probation period because we are justified instantly by grace. The believer does not ever have to be insecure about receiving the grace of God. The prodigal son of (Luke 15), who backslid into riotous living, was instantly restored by his Father with a celebration of rejoicing in his own house. The elder brother did not like it one bit and showed his displeasure to his father. The elder brother served his father diligently but did not understand anything about the restoration of mercy and grace. He was angry and did not rejoice with the others. The prodical was a son before, during and after he came back. He never lost his position and status with his father. He got the ring, the robe, the shoes and the fatted calf. He was a righteous son all the way through. He was dead but is alive again.

 

[Aliciaforjesus]

I'm really sorry, but I can't handle it anymore. You've posted a zillion threads like this with the words 'your imput' in the title... I feel I need to correct you. The word is INPUT not IMPUT. Sorry, but if you're gonna go on a holy crusade about topics and ask us for our opinion, to try and spark debate, at least get that bit right first eh?

I think this was rude!
Send an e-mail!

 

[Aliciaforjesus]

Free grace, OSAS, Eternal Security is a deception to cause believers to live in false security.

Reading corrupted versions of the Bible which make claims that salvation is a " drawn out process" is a big problem. In fact, those who claim one can lose their salvation is calling God a liar whether one realizes it or not. I consider that a big offense, and will not back down on the issue. Every Christian could go to hell under that corrupted belief. Then Jesus wasted his time on the cross. Jesus saves COMPLETELY.

BLC, God bless you for standing up to heresy. Many hate what you have to say because they are not open to hearing the truth. They have been indoctrinated to believing a lie concerning salvation. They will believe it because their best friend believes it, or some heretical preacher teaches it...I could list hundreds of Scriptures that prove eternal security and still people will choose to believe a lie. No where in any of my posts concerning eternal security do I say that man has a license to sin. But still, those who are confused, will continue to allege I have said that. I dont care if a whole slew of denominations declare eternal security is of the devil......I get what I believe firmly from the Word of God!(Psalm 118:8)...I have caught EVERY person who does not believe in eternal security contradicting their positions on multiple occasions! That is a sign that they are confused.

watchmen, you will be accountable to God for calling Him a liar....And so is everyone else who attacks the central truth in Gods Word!

How about I will never leave you, nor forsake you?

The renewing of our minds take some time, and salvation comes when you first Believe!

I agree with you the Lord is the one who reveals Himself and He is the one who keeps us.

We can not take any credit for our faith in Him, or in our own salvation, we did not earn it!

Gods word is true He can not lie nor will He make a promise and put loop holes in it like people do.

 

[Aliciaforjesus]

It is pretty foolish to believe that we can continue in sin, refuse to do the Father will, walk the wide path that leads to destruction, and still get into Heaven, just because at one point they may have asks Jesus into their heart and/or were baptized?

Satan is the only one than would have thought up this lie, and his ministers are the ones who teach it.

Are you without sin?

I don't think someone can stay sinning if they know the Lord!

The Lord is patient and kind, willing to go the extra mile for with us!

The Word does say to work out your own salvation with fear and trembleing!

 

[Aliciaforjesus]

Quote: 'It is pretty foolish to believe that we can continue in sin, refuse to do the Father will, walk the wide path that leads to destruction, and still get into Heaven, just because at one point they may have asks Jesus into their heart and/or were baptized'?

Anyone that makes a statement like that does not understand the grace of God and is very insecure about their relationship with God. The relationship that we have with God is one of grace and faith. We are human, our old sin nature was never eradicated and we need to walk and be filled with the Spirit and be quickened by God's word to keep from fulfilling the lust of the flesh and to keep from sin. If we fail and fall into sin, we confess our sin to God, He restores us by grace and we go on by faith. There is no probation period because we are justified instantly by grace. The believer does not ever have to be insecure about receiving the grace of God. The prodigal son of (Luke 15), who backslid into riotous living, was instantly restored by his Father with a celebration of rejoicing in his own house. The elder brother did not like it one bit and showed his displeasure to his father. The elder brother served his father diligently but did not understand anything about the restoration of mercy and grace. He was angry and did not rejoice with the others. The prodical was a son before, during and after he came back. He never lost his position and status with his father. He got the ring, the robe, the shoes and the fatted calf. He was a righteous son all the way through. He was dead but is alive again.

Good example!

 

[watchmen]

Quote: 'It is pretty foolish to believe that we can continue in sin, refuse to do the Father will, walk the wide path that leads to destruction, and still get into Heaven, just because at one point they may have asks Jesus into their heart and/or were baptized'?

Anyone that makes a statement like that does not understand the grace of God and is very insecure about their relationship with God. .

Wrong and wrong.
#1 I do understand the grace of God ,and what it is not is a license sin.
#2 I am very secure in my relationship with God, because I know that it is my goal to do the will of the Father, and reflect Christ to this evil world.

 

[Aliciaforjesus]

Paul said, I try to do right, but I always do what I don't want to!

He said the answer is Jesus!

None of us are without sin, that's why we need Jesus and the Holy Spirit to renew our minds.

We all fall short of God glorious standard.

So let God deal with them!

You do not know a persons heart,

What about the sins you struggle with, do you have a license for them?

Or do you stand before God and repent and trust Him to deliver you?

Who is to say, where there heart is with Jesus either!

We are not to judge, we are to Love.

Love our neighbors as ourselves.