predestination vs freewill

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
The theif on the cross was saved the same way as anyone; he obeyed the Gospel.
[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[Jhn 6:45 KJV] 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
 

Leon

New member
Aug 5, 2021
4
0
1
www.youtube.com
[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[Jhn 6:45 KJV] 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
+ Ezekiel 18
27But if a wicked man turns from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28Because he considered and turned from all the transgressions he had committed, he will surely live; he will not die...

30Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, so that your iniquity will not become your downfall. 31Cast away from yourselves all the transgressions you have committed, and fashion for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel? 32For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
+ Ezekiel 18
27But if a wicked man turns from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28Because he considered and turned from all the transgressions he had committed, he will surely live; he will not die...

30Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, so that your iniquity will not become your downfall. 31Cast away from yourselves all the transgressions you have committed, and fashion for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel? 32For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!
Who will hear and who will repent? Only those whom God has chosen for such

[Luk 8:10 KJV] 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

[Rom 11:8 KJV] 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
 

Leon

New member
Aug 5, 2021
4
0
1
www.youtube.com
Who will hear and who will repent? Only those whom God has chosen for such

[Luk 8:10 KJV] 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

[Rom 11:8 KJV] 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
I agree totally because knowledge, wisdom, and even faith are all given by God. Right?

[Romans 12:3] ... according to the measure of faith God has given you.
[Job 39:17] For God has deprived her of wisdom; He has not endowed her with understanding.
[Matthew 16:17] Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
How can a person be judged and condemned at the judgement if they had no choice in whether to be saved or not? Wouldn't a reprobate person have a defence at the judgement and say that he can't be condemned because God had already made the choice for him?
To answer your question:
[1Co 15:21-22 KJV]
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

It was by Adam's (and Eve's) transgression that a death sentence was levied upon all mankind. No one of themselves, deserves
to escape it.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,629
490
83
69
Thank you for your reply, awelight. I really appreciate the time and effort you put into edifying me - it was very gracious of you- and I am enjoying our discussion. I definitely understand the complexity of this issue and realize that it has the potential to draw the entire Bible into it.

It seems to me that #6 & 7, of your "From God's Perspective" group must happen first, and by them does the "From Man's Perspective" group occur. I don't think it possible for us to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and receive His fruit unless and until we have become born again (in fact, I think being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is becoming born again). One of the fruit of the Spirit is faith, so for us to have it we need to have Him -- it would be impossible to have true faith without Him, and impossible to have Him without first being born again. So any faith that is not of Him, is not a true faith.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
You would be correct. Nothing can happen in the way of one moving towards Christ, in a legitimate conversion experience, unless their fallen nature is renewed. Regeneration by the Spirit brings about ones initial Conversion. Which is, believing the Gospel. Then, with the help of the Spirit and the believers continued study of the Scriptures, these conversion experiences continue throughout their life until they step out of time and into Eternity. How much of the Word, they come to understand and apply to their lives, directly influences their level of conversion. (Think "fruit" that is on their tree. Some will have a little fruit and some will have a lot but all will bear fruit). Conversion and ongoing Sanctification are often used interchangeably in Theological discussions.

As far as the "New Birth" and "Indwelling" are concerned, they are different steps of the same Spirit. The "New Birth" is a secret work of the Spirit, upon one of the Elect individuals, at God's appointed time. Christ explained this necessity to Nicodemus. Without it, no one could enter the Kingdom of Heaven. However, it is not the same as the "indwelling of the Spirit"

While eleven of the twelve disciples, that our Lord chose, were "born anew", they did not possess the "indwelling" of the Spirit. The reason for this is as follows:

1) The disciples were in the presents of THE WORD, Jesus Christ, (John 1:1-3). Therefore, the Holy Spirit could not be a teacher, when THE TEACHER was present with them. The third person of the God-head cannot be doing the same work that the second person of the God-head was already doing.
2) The Lord promised the indwelling of the Spirit to all NT believers, once He was gone. He called the Holy Spirit, their Comforter. Remember the following passages:

John_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
John_14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.
John_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:
John_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.


Act 1:4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, ye heard from me:
Act 1:5 for John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.
Act_1:8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


The disciples were prone to not understanding what the Lord said because they lacked this indwelling leadership of the Spirit. Without this indwelling they often forgot what the Lord had taught. Peter was once rebuked because of his misunderstanding and inability to see the Greater Plan of God. (Mat.16:23, Mark 8:33). I also believe, that if Peter had been indwelt by the Spirit, he would not have denied Christ three times. The Holy Spirit would have given him the strength he needed to stand up against the persecution but of coarse, this was not God's plan for Peter at that time. Peter needed to learn "humility", he was continually making boastful claims.

Additionally, the Old Testament Saints experienced the new birth but they did not possess the indwelling Spirit as do NT believers. In the Old Testament Economy, the Spirit would come upon individuals, to speak a word of God or to do something that God willed to be done.

Jdg_3:10 And the Spirit of Jehovah came upon him, and he judged Israel; and he went out to war, and Jehovah delivered Cushan-rishathaim king of Mesopotamia into his hand: and his hand prevailed against Cushan-rishathaim.
2Ch_15:1 And the Spirit of God came upon Azariah the son of Oded:
2Ch_20:14 Then upon Jahaziel the son of Zechariah, the son of Benaiah, the son of Jeiel, the son of Mattaniah, the Levite, of the sons of Asaph, came the Spirit of Jehovah in the midst of the assembly;


I too, enjoy our conversations - how much greater they would be if face to face. I thank my God and your God that I in some small way have edified you and you me. Praise be to our Lord, forever and ever.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,629
490
83
69
Okay, I will give the best answer I can however, I suspect you are asking just to be argumentative. I pray not.

First you said:
It is true that God has chosen His elect before the foundation of the world. Tell me, what criteria has He based his choice on, seeing that it is not based on anything we have or can do in the way of good works, and that God is no respecter of persons. And if there is none righteous, no not one, as Romans says, then on what basis does God decide who is to be saved and who is to go to hell?

This is really a foolish question. Believers can only know what has been revealed by God in Holy Scripture. Holy Scripture does not reveal all of the mind of God. We see in Scripture - a hemisphere of God's revelation of the whole sphere. An entire hemisphere is hidden from our view. That portion of God's purpose, is none of our business. It is the area, that Scripture says, Even the Angels fear to tread. But the simple answer would be this:

Ps 115:1 Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
Ps 115:2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
Ps 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Ps 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.
Isa_44:24a Thus is saying Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that makes all things;...


Why would any true believer question what God can or cannot do. I love the fact that God does as He pleases. If He had desired to send me into condemnation - then so be it. I deserve it as a fallen creature. His Mercy, is what I do not deserve.

You also said:
As I asked in my previous post, please explain the contradiction between God choosing who is saved and who is to perish by His own decree, and yet every person is to be judged on their own choice of believing or rejecting the Gospel. How can a person be judged and condemned at the judgement if they had no choice in whether to be saved or not? Wouldn't a reprobate person have a defence at the judgement and say that he can't be condemned because God had already made the choice for him?


Herein, you seem to have a misunderstanding of what one is Judged for. The unsaved person will be judged because he/she is "dead in trespasses and sin" When Adam fell, he stood as our Federal Head before God and we all fell in him.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.


This brought about the curse of God upon fallen, sinful mankind. God's Holy nature sentence all of humanity to death. His Holy moral standard, (The ten commandments), proves we all deserve death. God's Holy Eternal Justice must be satisfied.

Thankfully, God had planned before the foundation of the world to save a remnant for Himself.

Heb_13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,

Again there is no way of knowing how God chose whom He chose. Every human being is equally guilty. NONE stands higher than another. However, we can come to some conclusions. First and foremost God is the "Potter" and we are just clay in the Potters hands.

Isa_29:16 Ye turn things upside down! Shall the potter be esteemed as clay; that the thing made should say of him that made it, He made me not; or the thing formed say of him that formed it, He hath no understanding?
Isa_64:8 But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Rom_9:21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?


Paul asked the question for us: "Or hath not the potter a right over the clay? The answer: YES !! He is God and we are a mere created beings.

Christ satisfied God's Holy Justice as it could only be satisfied. He established a Righteousness for the Elect that Justified them before God. His Justifying work was ONLY for the Elect. The ones written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the World. He died for the SHEEP (John 10:11, 15), not for the whole world. It is ridiculous to think that God would send His Son to die for the whole world, when He knows exactly the ones He intends to save. The word Cosmos in the Greek, is often used to mean: 1) a distinct group of people. 2) all of creation. 3) the earth 4) an operational system of mankind.

Now to your question about "contradiction".

There is no contradiction. Having established that all are equally GUILTY. Then how do we understand it? The Scripture says to us the following:

First, God will have MERCY and COMPASSION upon whom He will. The whom He will are the Elect. Rom 9:14-15 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he is saying to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. He says again: Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.
Your very question was anticipated by Paul: Rom 9:19-20 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that is speaking against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

What we know is, God chose some in Christ before the foundation of the world. He therefore, "passed by" all of the others. God does not increase the GUILT of the ONES He chose not to Elect to Salvation, they do that on their own. Their darkened, sinful nature will not come to the light to be saved, so they continue in their sin. Their "will" bound by sin and the fear of death. It would be same for the Elect, if God had not provided a new birth, (new nature), and a Righteous covering for them in Christ Jesus.

God choosing not to save any outside of the "Covenant of Redemption" harms no one, the lost continue upon the course they have always been on. A path that will ultimately place them in Eternal Condemnation and Punishment. There is a parallel to this kind of "mercy" being shown, even in our world. In Scripture, Pontius Pilate commuted the sentence of one man every year. We don't know why he would pick one over another but one was blessed with mercy and the other continued in prison. Pilate, not picking the other man in prison does no harm to him - as he was already guilty and in prison. The President of the United States has even greater powers given unto him. He can show mercy upon as many as he would like. Throughout American history, the President has released many from their judicial sentences. He does not have to give anyone a reason why or whom he picks for this mercy. It simply pleased him to do so.

I hope that answers your question.



 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,629
490
83
69
As I asked in my previous post, please explain the contradiction between God choosing who is saved and who is to perish by His own decree, and yet every person is to be judged on their own choice of believing or rejecting the Gospel. How can a person be judged and condemned at the judgement if they had no choice in whether to be saved or not? Wouldn't a reprobate person have a defence at the judgement and say that he can't be condemned because God had already made the choice for him?

It is true that God has chosen His elect before the foundation of the world. Tell me, what criteria has He based his choice on, seeing that it is not based on anything we have or can do in the way of good works, and that God is no respecter of persons. And if there is none righteous, no not one, as Romans says, then on what basis does God decide who is to be saved and who is to go to hell?

Also, there is a theological term for those who believe that God doesn't know the future. It is called "Open Theism" Is that the basis of your theology here?
Please see post #348. It may not have attached to you as a response.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
3,215
1,613
113
Midwest
Again there is no way of knowing how God chose whom He chose.
Hmm, overlooked:

Rom_8:29 For whom He did FOREKNOW, He also did predestinate to be conformed to The Image of His SON, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 
Mar 17, 2021
560
165
43
The thief repented by accepting that he was guilty and Jesus was innocent
Exactly. Good works didn't enter into the equation. He believed that Christ was the Son of God and was saved as a result.
 
Mar 17, 2021
560
165
43
I didn’t mention works.

The theif on the cross was saved the same way as anyone; he obeyed the Gospel.


Believe and therefore obey the Gospel command repent.


Repent means to turn to God in submission to Him as Lord.


The way we obey this command to repent is to confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord.


We believe in our heart God raised Him from the dead, and confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10


  • For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.




Let’s carefully examine what the thief said:



Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Luke 23:42-42



  • Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”



He confessed Jesus as Lord, and believed He would be raised from the dead and therefore come into His kingdom.







JPT
I heard a good story about when the thief turned up to the gates of Paradise and the angel asked him how come he came there. The thief couldn't answer, so he was asked with he understood justification by faith. No answer. The angel was puzzled because the thief knew nothing about church membership, the four steps to salvation, or the need to live a holy life. The angel got his supervisor who asked the thief, "So why are you here?" The thief replied, "The bloke on the middle cross said I could."
 
Mar 17, 2021
560
165
43
Okay, I will give the best answer I can however, I suspect you are asking just to be argumentative. I pray not.

First you said:
It is true that God has chosen His elect before the foundation of the world. Tell me, what criteria has He based his choice on, seeing that it is not based on anything we have or can do in the way of good works, and that God is no respecter of persons. And if there is none righteous, no not one, as Romans says, then on what basis does God decide who is to be saved and who is to go to hell?

This is really a foolish question. Believers can only know what has been revealed by God in Holy Scripture. Holy Scripture does not reveal all of the mind of God. We see in Scripture - a hemisphere of God's revelation of the whole sphere. An entire hemisphere is hidden from our view. That portion of God's purpose, is none of our business. It is the area, that Scripture says, Even the Angels fear to tread. But the simple answer would be this:

Ps 115:1 Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.
Ps 115:2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?
Ps 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Ps 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.
Isa_44:24a Thus is saying Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that makes all things;...


Why would any true believer question what God can or cannot do. I love the fact that God does as He pleases. If He had desired to send me into condemnation - then so be it. I deserve it as a fallen creature. His Mercy, is what I do not deserve.

You also said:
As I asked in my previous post, please explain the contradiction between God choosing who is saved and who is to perish by His own decree, and yet every person is to be judged on their own choice of believing or rejecting the Gospel. How can a person be judged and condemned at the judgement if they had no choice in whether to be saved or not? Wouldn't a reprobate person have a defence at the judgement and say that he can't be condemned because God had already made the choice for him?


Herein, you seem to have a misunderstanding of what one is Judged for. The unsaved person will be judged because he/she is "dead in trespasses and sin" When Adam fell, he stood as our Federal Head before God and we all fell in him.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.


This brought about the curse of God upon fallen, sinful mankind. God's Holy nature sentence all of humanity to death. His Holy moral standard, (The ten commandments), proves we all deserve death. God's Holy Eternal Justice must be satisfied.

Thankfully, God had planned before the foundation of the world to save a remnant for Himself.

Heb_13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,

Again there is no way of knowing how God chose whom He chose. Every human being is equally guilty. NONE stands higher than another. However, we can come to some conclusions. First and foremost God is the "Potter" and we are just clay in the Potters hands.

Isa_29:16 Ye turn things upside down! Shall the potter be esteemed as clay; that the thing made should say of him that made it, He made me not; or the thing formed say of him that formed it, He hath no understanding?
Isa_64:8 But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Rom_9:21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?


Paul asked the question for us: "Or hath not the potter a right over the clay? The answer: YES !! He is God and we are a mere created beings.

Christ satisfied God's Holy Justice as it could only be satisfied. He established a Righteousness for the Elect that Justified them before God. His Justifying work was ONLY for the Elect. The ones written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the World. He died for the SHEEP (John 10:11, 15), not for the whole world. It is ridiculous to think that God would send His Son to die for the whole world, when He knows exactly the ones He intends to save. The word Cosmos in the Greek, is often used to mean: 1) a distinct group of people. 2) all of creation. 3) the earth 4) an operational system of mankind.

Now to your question about "contradiction".

There is no contradiction. Having established that all are equally GUILTY. Then how do we understand it? The Scripture says to us the following:

First, God will have MERCY and COMPASSION upon whom He will. The whom He will are the Elect. Rom 9:14-15 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he is saying to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. He says again: Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.
Your very question was anticipated by Paul: Rom 9:19-20 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that is speaking against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

What we know is, God chose some in Christ before the foundation of the world. He therefore, "passed by" all of the others. God does not increase the GUILT of the ONES He chose not to Elect to Salvation, they do that on their own. Their darkened, sinful nature will not come to the light to be saved, so they continue in their sin. Their "will" bound by sin and the fear of death. It would be same for the Elect, if God had not provided a new birth, (new nature), and a Righteous covering for them in Christ Jesus.

God choosing not to save any outside of the "Covenant of Redemption" harms no one, the lost continue upon the course they have always been on. A path that will ultimately place them in Eternal Condemnation and Punishment. There is a parallel to this kind of "mercy" being shown, even in our world. In Scripture, Pontius Pilate commuted the sentence of one man every year. We don't know why he would pick one over another but one was blessed with mercy and the other continued in prison. Pilate, not picking the other man in prison does no harm to him - as he was already guilty and in prison. The President of the United States has even greater powers given unto him. He can show mercy upon as many as he would like. Throughout American history, the President has released many from their judicial sentences. He does not have to give anyone a reason why or whom he picks for this mercy. It simply pleased him to do so.

I hope that answers your question.
What you have stated is what the Scripture says.

I wasn't trying to be argumentative. I was responding to someone who said that he had full understanding of how unconditional election is reconciled with personal choice, as if he knew something that the Scripture doesn't tell us. So my response was a challenge for him to fully explain how he comes to understand the conflict when even the greatest theologians have been unable to do so.

My point is that how election through predestination, and election through personal choice are reconciled is not set out in Scripture, so anyone saying that they fully understand it is going into fanciful speculation outside of what the Scripture actually reveals. The fact is, how the two work together is something that is not revealed in Scripture, It is a mystery that God has decided to keep to Himself. What is required of us is to believe the Gospel and embrace Christ as Saviour, and trust God for the information that He has not revealed to us.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,673
571
113
My point is that how election through predestination, and election through personal choice are reconciled is not set out in Scripture, so anyone saying that they fully understand it is going into fanciful speculation outside of what the Scripture actually reveals. The fact is, how the two work together is something that is not revealed in Scripture, It is a mystery that God has decided to keep to Himself. What is required of us is to believe the Gospel and embrace Christ as Saviour, and trust God for the information that He has not revealed to us.
There is only one election, not two, and God is the only one to do the electing. If we think that we have come to a belief in the Gospel and Christ by our choice, then we have actually believed in ourselves. We are not saved by our faith, we are saved by Christ's faith. Our faith comes as a fruit of the Spirit, given AFTER and as a byproduct of being saved. We can contribute nothing to it,,
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
And they must exist concurrently if we rely totally upon scripture.
How can our free will exist concurrently with God’s foreknowledge? Do you mean the fact that God transcends time, and that all things past, present and future are present with Him?
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
The fact that He knows ahead, whats the piont of giving us freewill that wont alter the outcome anyway? Isnt it like a false sense of freewill?
Only if you believe that God’s foreknowledge is always causative…which it is not.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
Yeah. There have been changes in philosophy over the years that blind us to what Free Will and Predestination actually mean.

Predestination is a chiefly a concept dealing with God's salvation and redemption of Man.

Determinism is the idea that everything is pre-determined. This concept eludes the entire concept of free will and can have many different sources (biological determinism, theological determinism, sociological determinism). Determinism as we know it is actually a fairly modern concept though people have held it to varying degrees.

The Biblical concept of Free Will has been distorted by more radical elements of humanism. In our modern world we've canonized it, equating political freedom with an absolutized free will we actually do not have as humans, especially as believers. Particularly in Western churches.

This makes any discussion on Predestination as the Bible describes it difficult to say the least. The seeming contradiction isn't as stark when we leave our post-Enlightenment baggage at the door and do what the Reformers did- read the text in its proper context.
A. God can and does restrain evil. Therefore man’s will is not fully autonomous.

B. God doesn’t always restrain evil, though He could, therefore there is a measure of human freedom. We have a free will, but God can override our will when and if He chooses.

C. God is Soveriegn in that He does whatever He pleases. He can create good, He can permit man to go His own way, He can restrain man, He can hedge man’s way with thorns, and in it all He knows the end from the beginning…and He governs all creation through wise providence.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
A. God can and does restrain evil. Therefore man’s will is not fully autonomous.

B. God doesn’t always restrain evil, though He could, therefore there is a measure of human freedom. We have a free will, but God can override our will when and if He chooses.

C. God is Soveriegn in that He does whatever He pleases. He can create good, He can permit man to go His own way, He can restrain man, He can hedge man’s way with thorns, and in it all He knows the end from the beginning…and He governs all creation through wise providence.
D. God is never the cause of moral evil, but can use evil actions that He did not cause to bring about good that He caused.
 
Mar 17, 2021
560
165
43
How can our free will exist concurrently with God’s foreknowledge? Do you mean the fact that God transcends time, and that all things past, present and future are present with Him?
Yes. The alternative is called "Open Theism" which teaches that God's doesn't know the future because it is not a reality yet.
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
Yes. The alternative is called "Open Theism" which teaches that God's doesn't know the future because it is not a reality yet.
I know about open theism. It is not biblical. God called Cyrus by name before Cyrus was born. The Bible teaches that God declares the end from the beginning. Isaiah 46:10