predestination vs freewill

[awelight]

Why would anyone want to translate Greek, into Latin, then from Latin into English?
This is like unwinding your clock to try to reset the time to unwind it.

47 Translaters and similar worked on the original KJV.
It was "revised", in that the spelling of some words were updated, tho no words were removed or verses changed.
Italics were used to show where the translators inserted a word for the sake of clarity.

The KJV is a good Bible to lean on but it is not perfect. You are beginning to sound a bit like a KJV worshipper. Do you believe it was an inspired translation like them?

 

[Kidron]

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,

So you believe that everyone becomes saved?

Ive answered your first question a few times today, already...
Its this...
You are reading "predestined", as "God causes some to be born again".
And the verse does not say that...but you are READING that INTO THE VERSE......and its not in the verse.

Look at your verse.......>"predestined US".......that is the born again, as unbelievers are not the "US"..
Then notice what the predestination causes......It causes something to happen..
In this its : "adoption".
Adoption, is the result of being born again. As we become 'IN CHRIST"........that is the Spiritual adoption.

So, let me paraphrase the verse.

All who are born again, are predestined adopted.

This is cause and effect.

And the foreknowledge of God, knew who will be born again, ...and each BELIEVER enters into the predestination that is to become adopted and conformed into the image of Christ.

 

[Kidron]

I suppose you believe that Christ died for everyone too?

If you teach that the Cross is only for some, then you are denying the Cross.
Not a good idea.

 

[Kidron]

In which language do you read the Bible ?

In what language should the French, or the Portuguese, or the Kenyans, or the Chinese , or the English,, et alia, read the Bible?

Its not about "if im French, do i have to read the English".
Of course you dont., but many do.
I have a few bibles, but i teach out of 2 "bible promise books", and a Messianic Golden verses.

 

[Kidron]

The KJV is a good Bible to lean on but it is not perfect. You are beginning to sound a bit like a KJV worshipper. Do you believe it was an inspired translation like them?

I dont "sound like" anything.......except a teacher of Pauline Theology.
While you sound like a "i hate the KJV cult" boy.
Notice you stated that the KJV is not perfect, but you offered nothing to promote this opinion, but your opinion.
I dont hold your opinion as you do.
See, your opinion is your God.
Its not mine.
Believe it.

 

[awelight]

If you are being led of the Spirit, you wont be trying to correct a bible with a greek text.
In fact, God will lead you away from a "dead language", and towards the english version,... as in God's foreknowledge He knew that the letters that were written by the Apostles, would be translated eventually into English, in the "time of the Gentiles".
Its amazing what God knows before it happens.....

See.... English is the universal language that is taught in every country in this world. Its the world currency of Language that is universal, and no other language is this... and God knew this would happen, (foreknowledge) and that is why the English BIBLE is the word of God, and the Greek Text is the dead language that needs to be kept in seminaries and away from liars who can't read it, and yet pretend they can teach it.
Know any?
I do....
You will find more of these in PULPITS then on christian forums.........
And while you are seeking to be led of God, He will lead you to understand that there is no such thing as the "original Greek", text.
There are only copies of copies of copies of copies.........and a few very old manuscripts, but never a full text.

The only "originals" were the apostles LETTERS and they were gone 1900 yrs ago.

That is this dumbest thing I have ever heard. There are no surviving "Original Autographs" of the New Testament letters. Only they were "inspired" by The Spirit. They were written in the common man's Greek (Koine Greek). Our Bibles, are translations of the copies of these original manuscripts. "Variant" reading, takes into consideration the occasional differences found in one copy to another of the same letter. A decision then must be made as to which one is correct. Usually, these "variants" only effect a single word in the text and are usually variations in verb tenses or person number. Part of the decision making process, takes into consideration, the number of copies having which word. The older the copy - thus the closer to the original - is given greater weight. However, the number of copies showing the word a certain way, must also be given weight.

The English language is probably one of the worst languages to translate the Koine Greek into. The English really does not have a grammatical "gender". Gender is used in the Koine Greek, to establish what words are modifying which words.

Additionally, the English language does not have the "Perfect" tense verb. This is a true tragedy. The perfect tense is so important!!

Example:

When the English Bible says "It is written", you cannot get the sense of the perfect verb translated "written". The correct English translation, in order to get this sense, would be: "It stands forever written" Now we can see that what God speaks is eternal. The "perfect tense" magnifies the past action and has continual results for as long as time exists.

By the way, being born from above or being born anew of John 3:8, is a "perfect". Therefore, it really is saying this, "...so it is with everyone that has been born anew", and they will enjoy the results forever.

 

[Kidron]

That is this dumbest thing I have ever heard. There are no surviving "Original Autographs" of the New Testament letters. Only they were "inspired" by The Spirit.
.

I suspect that the dumbest thing you will hear, is whatever you are going to say next, fella.
You're proving it so far.

So listen up.....First of all, im ok if you are dishonest, but dont do it when you deal with me.

Notice, i never said anythig about any bible, text, manuscripts, being "inspired".
So, do NOT attribute to me, what you MAKE UP.
If you must lie then do it to your wife or mother. or pastor....but not to me.

What i said, is that there are no original greek texts, extant.
ZERO.
There are 30 obo, full greek new testaments, but none are ORIGINAL.... THey are all copies of copies of copies.
The "originals" are the Apostles letters, and they are long gone, 1900 yrs ago.

 

[Kidron]

The English language is probably one of the worst languages to translate the Koine Greek into. .

Yet, the english language is the language of the world.
Welcome to the "time of the Gentiles'.
Every country that has a school, or a college, teaches its students to learn english.
THey may TAKE,other languages, but, most will choose english, and all will have to learn it.
English is the language of the world.

Apparently you are not familiar with what is going on outside your living room window this last 400 yrs.
Here is a hint...
If you decide to travel abroad, or Live in the Middle East, where i live, then if you speak english you are good to Go.
If you dont, and you dont speak Hebrew or some type of middle eastern dialect, you will be stuck.

English is the golden currency, regarding universal acceptance and useage.
That you dont know this, is odd, but, i meet all types on Christian forums.

 

[awelight]

If you teach that the Cross is only for some, then you are denying the Cross.
Not a good idea.

If you believe that Christ died for everyone, then you are ignoring a lot of Scripture. Here is just a few:

John_10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep.
John_10:15 even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Mat_20:28 even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Mat_22:14 For many are called, but few chosen.
Mat_26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.
Rom_9:27 And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:
Rom_11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Finally:

John_6:65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
John_10:29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Those the Father gave to the Son is equal in extent to those for whom He died.

You must ask yourself: Did Christ die for the chosen and will bring everyone of them into the Ark of safety or did He die for everyone but fail to bring them all to safety?

Everyone limits the extent of Christ's sacrifice. Those who believe He died for everyone, limit it's efficacy. Those who believe His death is for the Elect only, limit it's number.

 

[awelight]

Yet, the english language is the language of the world.
Welcome to the "time of the Gentiles'.
Every country that has a school, or a college, teaches its students to learn english.
THey may TAKE,other languages, but, most will choose english, and all will have to learn it.
English is the language of the world.

Apparently you are not familiar with what is going on outside your living room window this last 400 yrs.
Here is a hint...
If you decide to travel abroad, or Live in the Middle East, where i live, then if you speak english you are good to Go.
If you dont, and you dont speak Hebrew or some type of middle eastern dialect, you will be stuck.

English is the golden currency, regarding universal acceptance and useage.
That you dont know this, is odd, but, i meet all types on Christian forums.

These are my final comments to you:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat_7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the swine, lest haply they trample them under their
feet, and turn and rend you.

 

[Kidron]

If you believe that Christ died for everyone, then you are ignoring a lot of Scripture. Here is just a few:

Not one of your verses state that Jesus does not die for everyone.
So, i guess you need to try again to prove that God does not want everyone to be saved.
And neither does the devil, so, you are found to be in interesting theological company.

 

[Kidron]

These are my final comments to you:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat_7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the swine, lest haply they trample them under their
feet, and turn and rend you.

and here is one for you...awelight

""""Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.""""


so, I hope you keep your word, and stay off my Threads and off my posts.
I dont think you will, as i dont think you can resist trying to prove that God's Grace isn't for everyone the Cross was raised to redeem.
But just remember, ..... when i see you posting theology that denies the Cross, i'll pay you a visit.
Believe it.

 

[OIC1965]

But we believe on Him because His faithfulness gives to us our faith

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Good verse. By the

Greek manuscripts , mostly written in Koine Greek, have to be translated, unless you can read-speak-write in this Language.

So, "fluency" is required to translate, or to teach.

You don’t have to speak Greek to translate. Only a person who never studied Greek would say that.

 

[OIC1965]

No you dont.

there is no such thing as..."i knew enough" to teach it.
Fluency is required for accuracy.

Seeing that many english speaking/reading/ writing people who begin to learn Greek have to basically relearn English to learn Greek, your claims are amusing.

I will ask again… please list the VERBS in Romans 8:29-30 from YOUR Bible (if you dare)

 

[OIC1965]

Here is the reality.
If you can read Koine Greek and speak it, and write it, fluently.....then you have achieved fluency.
Then you can teach it.
Not until., unless you want to be pretend something about yourself, that isn't true.

I'll leave that decision to you, and others who want to try it.

Unless you can list the verbs in Romans 8:29-30, you cannot teach the Bible.

 

[OIC1965]

You don’t have to speak Greek to translate. Only a person who never studied Greek would say that.[/QUOTE]

Im more about what translations i wont touch.
We can start with the NIV.

As for my own teaching..
I dont use commentaries.
All i use are 2 bible "promise" books, and a Messianic "Golden Verses", that is similar to a bible promise book.
When i was seminary trained i used many versions.
When i was taught manuscript evidence i used many sources.

Pick any translation and post Romans 8:30.

 

[OIC1965]

Do not get me wrong... I believe in the need of the system of faith. Since faith and believing are pretty much interchangeable terms - faith is believing and believing is faith - they are an important component in Salvation. However, my point here is that Justification of the Elect is not dependent upon our faith. Romans 3:21-31, is the revelation of God's faith in His purpose and His Son's completed work.

Does God have faith? Of course He does. He established the concept and ability in His Created beings. In Roman's 3:25:

whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;

The term "through faith", goes back to the Noun - Theos - God. The verse is saying, God through faith, in the shed blood of Jesus Christ - could pass over the sins of the OT Saints before the actual event took place in history. This comes as no shock to the ones who believe in the Doctrines of Election and Predestination. We are used to the concept of things being completed from Eternity, even before the foundation of the world.

Paul was beginning the argument of "faith" from it's source - God. He goes on to the "system of faith" in Rom.3:28

Rom 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

This Justification is not by anything the believer does or does not do, but is through the "system of faith" established by God and comes directly from God's faith. This is the beautiful answer, to how God could impute righteousness to the OT Saints even before Christ's first advent. God being Sovereign over His creation and being the one and only god, what would stop His purpose or His faith in it.

Paul, having established the understanding of God's Justification of the Elect and this system of faith, then moves to it's application, in Romans 4. That through this system of faith, Abraham was considered Righteous.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

Abraham was already a believer, was he not? We know what must take place before a fallen man can believe God. Being foreknown, being predestinated, being called and being Justified. All past tense verbs - Abraham, like all of the Elect, was already Justified, taking us back to Romans 3. Abraham experienced the "New Birth" at the appointed time and heard the Lord and believed the Lord and His Truth. Therefore, believing the Lord was an act of righteousness. But his act of righteousness could no more save him than it could save us.

Do you believe in imputed righteousness? How is righteousness imputed? ( Romans 4:5)

 

[OIC1965]

Im more about what translations i wont touch.
We can start with the NIV.

As for my own teaching..
I dont use commentaries.
All i use are 2 bible "promise" books, and a Messianic "Golden Verses", that is similar to a bible promise book.
When i was seminary trained i used many versions.
When i was taught manuscript evidence i used many sources.

Please pick an English translation and type or paste Romans 8:30

 

[JerryInBoston]

Its not about "if im French, do i have to read the English".
Of course you dont., but many do.
I have a few bibles, but i teach out of 2 "bible promise books", and a Messianic Golden verses.

Answer the question? What language Bible shold the Chinese Christians be reading?

 

[OIC1965]

Look...

""""Whom God foreknew ...he also predestined to be : conformed to the image of his Son"""""


Ok , let me show you what this verse is teaching.

First , notice that the verse does not say anything about the foreknowledge of being born again, or BECOMING a Christian.
What it describes is the "conforming", to the "image of His Son". that God "foreknew".

So, right away we note that the verse is talking about who has already been born again, as you can't be involved in the spiritual process of being conformed into the image of Christ, unless you are born again, first.

Notice now.....Those who God foreknew........that would be every person, ever born , as God foreknows everything.
For example what you are wearing today,:?????? as God foreknow you would wear it on this day, before you were born.
Does that mean He caused you to wear it? No it does not.

The "foreknowledge" of God, is God's ability and miraculous omnipotent capacity to know all things BEFORE they Happen.

So, where does the HERESY, that is hyper calvinism show up?

Right here.......in the word = FOREKNOWLEDGE.
What the hyper calvinist does, it reinvent the definition of this word., and that produces the heresy of....."some are chosen to be saved and some are not".
What the hyper Calvinist does is redefine the word foreknowledge into....>"God caused it".
See that?

The heretic changes the definition of the word "foreknowledge", ..which means....>"God knows everything before it happens".......into this new definition of "foreknowledge"....= "God causes it all to happen".
And RIGHT THERE, the deception that is the heresy of the "predestined elect", is born.

These deceived people teach that "foreknowledge" is God causing everything, instead of God knowing everything before it happen.
See that?
That's their theological poison EXPOSED and EXPLAINED.

So, these heretics then apply this wrong definition to words like....>"born again"......and errors like this just create their theological heresy to become darker and darker and more anti-Cross and Grace Denying.

You said predestination isn’t in the Bible, but you typed a verse that uses the word predestined. Predestined is the verbal form of the noun predestination. So you just showed that predestination is in the Bible.

Secondly, God did not foreknowledge every person, because whom He foreknew, He ALSO predestinated, and those He predestination, He ALSO called, justified and glorified.

Your claim sounds like universalism…or you are not fluent in exegesis