predestination vs freewill

[fredoheaven]

The question is.... who will believe in Christ? Faith (belief) is give as a gift by the Holy Spirit. True faith is not/cannot be self generated.

[Gal 5:22 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

That is already the fruit of the Holy Spirit, those who are already sealed and were saved or those who are walking in the Spirit v.16, 25. The verse does not in reference to pre-salvation experienced but this is a post-salvation experience of every believer in Christ. The fact that the chapter talks about believers' freedom in Christ v.1, 11, 13.

 

[rogerg]

That is already the fruit of the Holy Spirit, those who are already sealed and were saved or those who are walking in the Spirit v.16, 25. The verse does not in reference to pre-salvation experienced but this is a post-salvation experience of every believer in Christ. The fact that the chapter talks about believers' freedom in Christ v.1, 11, 13.

Yes, if I understand you correctly, I agree with you (although I don't understand the what you mean by "walking in the Spirit" - since being saved should cover it all)-- I intended it as after salvation, not before. That is, until one becomes saved/born again, they will not/cannot be in possession of the fruit of the Spirit -- one of which is faith.

 

[awelight]

I love reading your post...
I love the way you explain Scripture in a calm manner , and how you are helping those with less understanding...
...xox...

Thanks Rosemaryx - for your kind words and I am over joyed that in some small way I can further another's understanding. Yet, not I but the Grace of God extended to me.

 

[Kidron]

Lucifer is also a son of God.

This is something that matters to you.
Im not sure why.
Maybe you can ask God about why you need to tell forums that Angels and Lucifer are "sons of God".
Do you feel that you need to share the message that Lucifer is a son of God?
Seems so., as here you are again, doing it.
Do you belong to the CULT that teaches that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?
Is that the issue you have, JPT?

 

[Kidron]

quoted are referencing a deliverance (salvation) here in this world, it is not referencing eternal deliverance.

The Cross of Christ resolves this issue... John 3:36, and it resolves this one....>"You must be born again", and it resolves one more....>"Jesus said ... If you dont believe in me, you shall die in your SINS".
The Cross has established "the gift of Salvation", and that is give to the born again, on earth, for the sake of our Eternity.

So, Sins, if not resolved on earth, by being born again........ will find you committing the unpardonable sin, and dying.
You commit that one one earth, and you pay for that one in Eternity.

what Jesus did on the Cross, resolves our Eternity.
This is why all the born again, have Eternal LIFE.

 

[Kidron]

You can't believe (have faith) without first having been given and indwelt BY the Holy Spirt. .

Thats impossible.

As the Holy Spirit does not indwell someone who is not forgive of your sin.
So, you have to resolve the sin issue, before you are given "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory".

Let me explain this...

Salvation has 3 parts.

First, you believe, and God then applies the blood of Jesus to you, that forgives your sin, and makes you righteous.

Now, having become righteous, God then gives you the new birth.

See, your spirit has to be made righteous, to then be born again.

So, its like this......You believe......then you are made righteous....and then Christ comes to live in you, as the means of your eternal righteousness.

 

[awelight]

MYSELF I DON'T BELIEVE IN PREDESTINATION TO BE SAVED!
I BELIEVE IN ....THE DESTINATION

For WHOSOEVER WILL ( free will) let him come and drink from the water of life freely!
Jesus came for those that will .....not those that think they are ELITES

The problem with your argument is - You don't bother to harmonize one Scripture with another. Instead, you are making a commonly used talking point of Arminian teaching. But here is the simple question:

Who are the "whosoever's" that will to come to Christ?

On one side of the argument, Scripture says the following:

Mark_3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life

On the other side of the argument you have:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Rom 3:11 There is none that understands, There is none that is seeking after God;

I submit, that if one believes in "free will" and believes they are free to make any choice they like, in regards to Salvation, they cannot harmonize these two seemingly opposed concepts. They will either have to ignore one side or seriously mangle the meaning of these Scripture verses.

If I believe, that "whosoever believes", is an open invitation to all of mankind, then I cannot harmonize Christ's points in John 6:44 or John 10:10. Both of these verses imply a limitation. John 6:44, on the ability of a man to come and John 10:10, on the extent of Christ's atoning work.

However, if I believe that God Elected some to Salvation and Predestinated them and called them and Justified them and glorified them -- then I have no problem in harmonizing these two concepts.

Simply put - those that have been Elected by God to Salvation are equal to the "whosoever's" of Mark 3:35 and John 3:16. In other words, those that "do the will of God" are the Elect and those that "are believing on Him" are the Elect.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

It doesn’t matter what it means to me.Sure it does because god dosen't want anyone perish.I understand your context thought

We have many scriptures telling us that God has all power to accomplish his will even with the armies of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand, nor say unto him, what doest thou? Dan 4:35. If God wanted to eternally save all of mankind he could, and would, do it. It is contrary to the scriptures to say "mankind has to be willing to let God save him".

 

[rayzor]

god made every thing & knows every thing seems like we r design & will do what we where design 2.[I do not like this concept mind u]

 

[rayzor]

just god & his thoughts that's it.

 

[rayzor]

[just a word of kindness] y think at all? not in disagreement.

 

[awelight]

Rogerg, I believe that we have no disagreement in our understanding of God's elect, and their eternal deliverance. The salvation scriptures had conflicting meanings to me and did not harmonize because I thought I was smart enough to understand them by my own entelect, until I denied my entelect at 62 years old and the Holy Spirit revealed the truth of the salvation scriptures as being "a deliverance" according to the Greek translation.

I believe the scriptures to teach that there is an eternal deliverance for God's elect, by the death of Jesus for their redemption, and there is a timely deliverance that the elect receive, as they sojourn here on earth, by their good works and repentance of sin by following God's commandments (Which is not eternal deliverance because their eternal deliverance has already been secured)

Because of the timely deliverance is why so many of God's elect believe that their good works are involved in their eternal salvation, because there is a deliverance (salvation that is not eternal) taught as a result of the elect's repentance of sin, and following God's commandments.

I believe Matt 7 of the two gates harmonizes with this truth. God's elect enter both of the gates. The wide gate being those that are believing, and teaching false doctrines because of their lack of knowledge of the mystery of the gospel, and the straight gate being those elect that have denied their own entelect of the scriptures and have been revealed, by the Holy Spirit, the truths that are hidden from the wise and prudent, of God's elect, who have not denied their own entelect, that go into the wide gate. All who enter both gates have security of their inheritance by Jesus's death.

I also believe that the scriptures teach that there will be a greater number who go to heaven than there is that go to hell. The gospel is "good news". We do receive the mercy of God for our sinful nature that we are burdened with, that warfare that we will struggle with until we go to our graves.

God's called pastors are instructed to preach the knowledge of the gospel to his lost sheep (those of God's elect that go into the wide gate) to deliver (save) them from their ignorance of God's righteousness, that he delivering them eternally by his sovereign grace. and not by their good works.

I know you addressed this Rogerg but I have to respond.

How you are interpreting Mat. 7, (the gates) is very strange to me. It is as if you are trying to fit a personal experience into the Scripture teaching. Like you are trying to make room for those religionist who are bound up in Doctrinal error. Just because one goes to a church or says they are Christians, does not make it so. If we inspected the "fruit" on their "religious" tree, I doubt we will find "good" fruit. I do believe, that a new convert, can get hung up in bad Doctrine but the indwelling Spirit will lead him out in short order. Likewise, there are religious Elect individuals, who believe at that time, they are saved but are not. Later they are quickened and realize they had not the Truth before. All of God's regenerated believer's, today, have the indwelling Spirit, and that same Spirit is not going to teach one person one thing and another something different.

As to this statement:
I also believe that the scriptures teach that there will be a greater number who go to heaven than there is that go to hell.

You ignored my previous response to this. Please show in Scripture, any verse that would imply that more are going to Heaven than Hell. I gave you many that would say otherwise.

 

[rogerg]

As the Holy Spirit does not indwell someone who is not forgive of your sin.
So, you have to resolve the sin issue, before you are given "Christ in you, the Hope of Glory".

So, then you don't believe Christ is the Savior? If you believe that you have to resolve your own sins, than that is what you are saying

 

[Kidron]

So, then you don't believe Christ is the Savior? If you believe that you have to resolve your own sins, than that is what you are saying

I said what i meant.
Let me say it again,.......like this.

Before a person is saved, they are a Christ Rejecting SINNER.
Can God's Holy Spirit live in a Christ Rejecting sinner?
You think so.
God does not agree.

You are teaching that a person "Is the Temple of the Holy Spirit"< before they have believed in Christ.

And i told you, that this is impossible.

 

[rogerg]

Simply put - those that have been Elected by God to Salvation are equal to the "whosoever's" of Mark 3:35 and John 3:16. In other words, those that "do the will of God" are the Elect and those that "are believing on Him" are the Elect.

Plus, if you don't mind me adding a little, to me the keyword in John 3:16, which the verse hangs upon isn't the
"whosoever", it's the "believeth". I think the Bible makes completely clear that only those who are of the elect can truly believe
by the Holy Spirit. So, with that in view, we can identify the "whosoever" are the elect and only the elect - and not everyone.

 

[rayzor]

There r time in the bible when the spirit has been in bad guy people such as balaam & saul

 

[Kidron]

a new convert, can get hung up in bad Doctrine but the indwelling Spirit will lead him out in short order. .

You actually think that Calvinism's "predestination" theology is "God's truth".
So, by your admission, you are the very one who got hung up in bad doctrine, and have never recovered.

 

[rogerg]

Can God's Holy Spirit live in a Christ Rejecting sinner?
You think so.

Yes, I definitely think so - everyone rejects Christ before they become saved/born again, otherwise, we would to be our own savior which would be impossible. What do you think it means that Christ has been given the title of Savior? Besides saving spiritually, what else do you think a Savior does? To believe Christ is not Savior is to reject the Gospel in its entirety

 

[rayzor]

Is that the same as god knows all thing? [The father does ]but the son does not in a sense. Such as the time of his return

 

[rayzor]

or would he have to make himself ignorant to how his designs react to their environment