predestination vs freewill
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Mat. 28:19 - mentions the three persons of the Godhead but it does not say that God is a trinity or triune. I could conclude from this verse alone, that God is three gods. It says nothing about them being one. to make my point, where is the word trinity or triune found in this verse? Your not following my argument.
Some people c it as implied [2+2 makes 4] Their r distinctions in old testament such as god is not man nor the [son of men] = jesus was born in the fleash thu son of man [the father was not and he dos not repent] jesus repents such as being sorry he made man[Know human has heard the fathers voice at any time but the son has declear him]in whom iam well please was the spirit speaking because no human has heard the fathers voice]water ice steam 3 forms one god[Elohim is plural not singular] the yold mem at the end.YOUR RIGHT other then elohim there nothing that says the Trinity directly
God
h430
אֱלֹהִים אֱלֹהִים'ĕlōhîm
Some people c it as implied [2+2 makes 4] Their r distinctions in old testament such as god is not man nor the [son of men] = jesus was born in the fleash thu son of man [the father was not and he dos not repent] jesus repents such as being sorry he made man[Know human has heard the fathers voice at any time but the son has declear him]in whom iam well please was the spirit speaking because no human has heard the fathers voice]water ice steam 3 forms one god[Elohim is plural not singular] the yold mem at the end.YOUR RIGHT other then elohim there nothing that says the Trinity directly
God
h430
אֱלֹהִים אֱלֹהִים'ĕlōhîm
The simple answer is no. One does not have to have the indwelling of the Spirit to believe. The New Birth accomplishes this need. The proof of this point is in the Scriptures and by asking simple questions to guide ones thoughts.
Were there not believers in the Old Testament economy? Of course there were. Did they have the indwelling of the Spirit? NO. However by requirement, they must have been born anew by the same Spirit. What requirement you may ask? The requirement revealed by our Lord at the end of the Old Testament economy and should have been known by the Old Testament teachers:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.
Were the twelve disciples believers in Christ? Well eleven were and one was a fake. But yes, the eleven were believing on Christ. Did they posses the indwelling of the Spirit? NO However they had been born anew and had the abiding presents of the Spirit and later would have the indwelling Spirit in them.
What is the promise of our Lord as to the coming of the Spirit. Let's see what Scripture says.
John_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
John 14:17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholds him not, neither is knowing him: ye know him; for he abides with you, and shall be in you.
1) He is to be the believers comforter. Christ was departing and this was traumatic on the believers being left behind.
2) Here we are told that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth - of course He is, no believer would deny this.
3) The world cannot receive this Spirit, why not? First, because the world here is the non-elect, they do not know Him. They do not know Him because they have not been born anew. Being born anew introduces the Spirit to the future believer and this self same Spirit abides with this new infant child while he takes his first Conversion steps. Like a father protecting his child from the evils of the world. This begins the baby steps towards Christ and the Gospel is the beacon which leads the way.
4) That in the near future the Spirit would be indwelling them.
What is the purpose of the Spirits indwelling? Again, what does the Scripture say?
John_14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.
1) He will teach us. He does this by illuminating our minds as we study, witness and hear the word expounded. But He does not teach what we have not been exposed to. He does not give us information but aids in our understanding, of those things which have been revealed in Holy Writ.
2) He brings us into remembrance. As humans, without this aid, we would forget more than we know.
John_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:
1) The Holy Spirit does not seek His own glory but moves all things towards Christ in our knowledge, so that Christ is further exalted.
John_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.
The Holy Spirit was so necessary for the Universal Church, which Christ is building, that the Lord Himself said - it is expedient for you that I go away. Why so expedient? The answer I believe is in this verse:
1Pe_2:9 But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
Other passages, tell us more about the Spirits office in the Universal Church.
Were there not believers in the Old Testament economy? Of course there were. Did they have the indwelling of the Spirit? NO. However by requirement, they must have been born anew by the same Spirit. What requirement you may ask? The requirement revealed by our Lord at the end of the Old Testament economy and should have been known by the Old Testament teachers:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.
Were the twelve disciples believers in Christ? Well eleven were and one was a fake. But yes, the eleven were believing on Christ. Did they posses the indwelling of the Spirit? NO However they had been born anew and had the abiding presents of the Spirit and later would have the indwelling Spirit in them.
What is the promise of our Lord as to the coming of the Spirit. Let's see what Scripture says.
John_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
John 14:17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholds him not, neither is knowing him: ye know him; for he abides with you, and shall be in you.
1) He is to be the believers comforter. Christ was departing and this was traumatic on the believers being left behind.
2) Here we are told that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth - of course He is, no believer would deny this.
3) The world cannot receive this Spirit, why not? First, because the world here is the non-elect, they do not know Him. They do not know Him because they have not been born anew. Being born anew introduces the Spirit to the future believer and this self same Spirit abides with this new infant child while he takes his first Conversion steps. Like a father protecting his child from the evils of the world. This begins the baby steps towards Christ and the Gospel is the beacon which leads the way.
4) That in the near future the Spirit would be indwelling them.
What is the purpose of the Spirits indwelling? Again, what does the Scripture say?
John_14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.
1) He will teach us. He does this by illuminating our minds as we study, witness and hear the word expounded. But He does not teach what we have not been exposed to. He does not give us information but aids in our understanding, of those things which have been revealed in Holy Writ.
2) He brings us into remembrance. As humans, without this aid, we would forget more than we know.
John_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:
1) The Holy Spirit does not seek His own glory but moves all things towards Christ in our knowledge, so that Christ is further exalted.
John_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.
The Holy Spirit was so necessary for the Universal Church, which Christ is building, that the Lord Himself said - it is expedient for you that I go away. Why so expedient? The answer I believe is in this verse:
1Pe_2:9 But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
Other passages, tell us more about the Spirits office in the Universal Church.
Were not the saved of the OT under a different covenant (with God) than those of the NT ? Doesn't the verse below signify that the Holy Spirit must "put" into their hearts, and "write" into their minds ? And without God's laws first being present, then how could faith (or any other fruits) come to life within them?
[Heb 10:16 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
[Heb 10:16 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
I never said there was some extended "gap" between Regeneration and hearing the Gospel. What I said is, no one human can pin point the exact moment of the new birth. Only God knows for sure if there is a Nano-second gap or if it is longer. I do not speak for the Lord. I simply maintain, that the new birth must come first.
You make it sound as if hearing the Gospel and believing are one in the same thing. A person does not believe the moment they hear the Gospel, they have to consider the Gospel message and determine if they agree with what is heard. Ponder who this Jesus Christ is, way the cost, then give themselves over to Christ. This could take hours if not days. So why do you have a problem with a so called time gap between regeneration and believing. Makes no sense to me.
You say you believe in a monergism, but this belief states: Monergism is the view within Christian Theology which holds that God works through the Holy Spirit to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, regardless of the individual's cooperation. This is what I believe. What you are professing is some sort of synergism based upon Gospel regeneration.
You say, that I have a person being born anew before they are Justified. Really - I will be as gracious as I can here, but you have a ways to go on the subject of Justification. If you believe that a person is Justified when they believe, you have missed the target by a mile.
Does the Father justify the Elect out of our faith or out of the faithful work of His Son? Do you think the Justification of the Elect is based on what the elect does or does not? That God places his entire plan on whether we believe or exercise faith? God leaves nothing in the hands of man, this is taught throughout Scripture. God is in control of His plan of Salvation. He enables man to do His will and insures that the elect make it all the way,
The Justification of the Elect was a done deal before God created and before His Son went to the cross. The Elect were in Christ before the foundation of the world. Justification was accomplished in God's eternal purpose because nothing can stop God from accomplishing what He purposes. This is why Paul wrote what he wrote in the past tense.
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies;
To many believers still don't grasp the concept of Eternal Security for what it is. The Elect are Eternally secure because nothing is dependent upon the elect. The elect will fulfil the requirements of salvation because God will make sure they do. He has purposed it already and it will take place just that way. God met the requirements of the Law Himself and has already accomplished all that is required to satisfy His Holy Justice. When Christ on the cross said: It is finished. That is exactly what He meant. He finished all that His Father had purposed for Him. We are the recipients of Grace, put no human requirement in the way. If a person is born anew, he will believe and nothing can stop that.
You make it sound as if hearing the Gospel and believing are one in the same thing. A person does not believe the moment they hear the Gospel, they have to consider the Gospel message and determine if they agree with what is heard. Ponder who this Jesus Christ is, way the cost, then give themselves over to Christ. This could take hours if not days. So why do you have a problem with a so called time gap between regeneration and believing. Makes no sense to me.
You say you believe in a monergism, but this belief states: Monergism is the view within Christian Theology which holds that God works through the Holy Spirit to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, regardless of the individual's cooperation. This is what I believe. What you are professing is some sort of synergism based upon Gospel regeneration.
You say, that I have a person being born anew before they are Justified. Really - I will be as gracious as I can here, but you have a ways to go on the subject of Justification. If you believe that a person is Justified when they believe, you have missed the target by a mile.
Does the Father justify the Elect out of our faith or out of the faithful work of His Son? Do you think the Justification of the Elect is based on what the elect does or does not? That God places his entire plan on whether we believe or exercise faith? God leaves nothing in the hands of man, this is taught throughout Scripture. God is in control of His plan of Salvation. He enables man to do His will and insures that the elect make it all the way,
The Justification of the Elect was a done deal before God created and before His Son went to the cross. The Elect were in Christ before the foundation of the world. Justification was accomplished in God's eternal purpose because nothing can stop God from accomplishing what He purposes. This is why Paul wrote what he wrote in the past tense.
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies;
To many believers still don't grasp the concept of Eternal Security for what it is. The Elect are Eternally secure because nothing is dependent upon the elect. The elect will fulfil the requirements of salvation because God will make sure they do. He has purposed it already and it will take place just that way. God met the requirements of the Law Himself and has already accomplished all that is required to satisfy His Holy Justice. When Christ on the cross said: It is finished. That is exactly what He meant. He finished all that His Father had purposed for Him. We are the recipients of Grace, put no human requirement in the way. If a person is born anew, he will believe and nothing can stop that.
Not exactly - The Spirit is required for hearing all right but initially that hearing comes from the new birth.
If a person is dead in spirit, then this dead spirit is responsible for their lack of hearing. Since the Bible message, is constituted as spiritual language, having a dead spirit would mean that one hears the words but cannot receive the spiritual message. The Scriptures often call this condition - dull in hearing. Once the person's spirit is regenerated in the new birth, then that person has a living, working spirit. Now this person not only hears the words of Scripture but discerns the spiritual message therein. We must give some credit to what our own spirit can accomplish once made alive again. After all, it enabled Adam to commune with the Lord.
Therefore, the ability to believe is said to be the fruit of the Spirit and faith the gift of God. What Scripture means by the fruit of the Spirit is this. When a person is regenerated and his spirit is made alive, this impacts his nature - he is no longer cut off from God. Flesh cannot commune with spirit but now that the spirit in a man is alive, he can commune with the Spirit. So exercising his belief out of this new nature, is said to be the fruit of the Spirit. Or in other words, The Spirit has made all this possible.
As I pointed out in post # 1124, the indwelling of the Spirit in believers, was unique to the Universal Church which Christ is building. It gives Christ's Church a greater opportunity for knowledge than believers who came before. While every born anew believer from the beginning of time has had the abiding presents of the Spirit, only the Universal Church has had the indwelling.
This indwelling, enables us to have much greater blessing than what they had. The indwelling Spirit teaches us, leads us into all Truth, exalts Christ, comforts us, calls us to remembrance, seals us, strengthens our faith, intercedes for us in prayer and so on. Never seeking His own Glory.
Hopefully, that makes sense to you. Sometimes when we know a thing, we leave out important bits because we think they already know that bit. If this is the case I apologize in advance.
If a person is dead in spirit, then this dead spirit is responsible for their lack of hearing. Since the Bible message, is constituted as spiritual language, having a dead spirit would mean that one hears the words but cannot receive the spiritual message. The Scriptures often call this condition - dull in hearing. Once the person's spirit is regenerated in the new birth, then that person has a living, working spirit. Now this person not only hears the words of Scripture but discerns the spiritual message therein. We must give some credit to what our own spirit can accomplish once made alive again. After all, it enabled Adam to commune with the Lord.
Therefore, the ability to believe is said to be the fruit of the Spirit and faith the gift of God. What Scripture means by the fruit of the Spirit is this. When a person is regenerated and his spirit is made alive, this impacts his nature - he is no longer cut off from God. Flesh cannot commune with spirit but now that the spirit in a man is alive, he can commune with the Spirit. So exercising his belief out of this new nature, is said to be the fruit of the Spirit. Or in other words, The Spirit has made all this possible.
As I pointed out in post # 1124, the indwelling of the Spirit in believers, was unique to the Universal Church which Christ is building. It gives Christ's Church a greater opportunity for knowledge than believers who came before. While every born anew believer from the beginning of time has had the abiding presents of the Spirit, only the Universal Church has had the indwelling.
This indwelling, enables us to have much greater blessing than what they had. The indwelling Spirit teaches us, leads us into all Truth, exalts Christ, comforts us, calls us to remembrance, seals us, strengthens our faith, intercedes for us in prayer and so on. Never seeking His own Glory.
Hopefully, that makes sense to you. Sometimes when we know a thing, we leave out important bits because we think they already know that bit. If this is the case I apologize in advance.
I used the word “hear” in the secondary sense. People have ears but hear not. What kind of hearing do you think that means.
Secondly, the Bible states that those who have the Son have life and those that don’t have the Son do not have life.
So if a person does not have the Son, there is no life in them.
And if you do not have the Spirit of Christ, you are none of His.
So if one does not have the Spirit, they are not Christ’s. And if they are not Christ’s they have no life in them.
I will correct my statement, since it was ambiguous, ( I was rushed when I typed it).
I hold that regeneration and belief happen simaltaneously. As it is written “ that you might believe and believing yoh may have life in His name.
Secondly, the Bible states that those who have the Son have life and those that don’t have the Son do not have life.
So if a person does not have the Son, there is no life in them.
And if you do not have the Spirit of Christ, you are none of His.
So if one does not have the Spirit, they are not Christ’s. And if they are not Christ’s they have no life in them.
I will correct my statement, since it was ambiguous, ( I was rushed when I typed it).
I hold that regeneration and belief happen simaltaneously. As it is written “ that you might believe and believing yoh may have life in His name.
I have no argument with the Theology, I believe all three. I simply was pointing out that many of the Biblical Truths cannot be found in one or two verses. That is why I sa
it id, you are not following my argument.
it id, you are not following my argument.
Bottom line. He who has the Son has life, he who has not the Son has not life. So if you hold that regeneration means imparted new and spiritual life, then all who are regenerated certainly have Christ.
And seeing that those who have not Christ’s Spirit are none of His, and those who have not Christ have not life , I think it follows that regeneration, faith, justification, and Spirit indwelling happen simitaneously.
I do agree that there may be a gap between hearing with physical ears and believing, but I see no gap between regeneration and indwelling
Because to be born again is to be born of the Spirit. But also, Spiritual Life is only found IN UNION WITH CHRIST.
Since Jehovah, is the same as the Lord, which is the same as the Great I am, which is the same as the Word and is the same as Jesus Christ, all believers have had access to the Lord Jesus Christ and all have heard from Him.
The OT economy, was broken into two parts - Before the Law and After the Law.
Before the Law was given, a born again believers, simply believed what Jehovah revealed to them. This was enough to show their faith in the Lord. After the Law and Sacrifices were established, there was more to keep in the way of Commandments. However, they had one thing in common, believing on what the Lord had revealed.
The OT believers from either direct revelation or the Prophets - who we know spoke directly from God. God gave them the words to speak. (Deut. 18:18; Isa. 59:21; Jer. 5:14). When Jehovah spoke in direct revelation, everyone heard Him speak but everyone did not obey His commandments. Only the Elect followed His Commandments and teachings. Therefore, they were the ones born anew and had the abiding presents of the Spirit. The same could be applied to the Prophets when they spoke. The rest of Israel were just rabble following along to see what they could get.
The Old Covenant was based on types and shadows of Christ's person and completed work, after the Levitical Laws were laid down. The New Covenant is based on Christ's blood or if you prefer, on Christ Himself. All of the types and shadows, of the OT economy, of course pointed to Christ and His redemptive work.
While we now possess a clearer image of God's work in Salvation because we have the fully revealed Word in our possession, the OT believers had many of these great Truths as well. But the one requirement of both dispensations, was to believe God. That His Word was Truth. Remember what this verse said: John_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth. Two things are required for proper and acceptable worship - One must be able to commune spiritually. Thus, one must have experienced the new birth and have been made spiritually alive. (Remember, this is before the coming of the Spirit to dwell in believers). - One must worship in Truth, God's revealed Truth in the Scriptures. God does not except error, not even from His own, it must be Truth.
In Heb. 10:16 - the writer is talking about what God will do after those days. What days? The days following Christ's second advent. God, through the Spirit will do these things to those having survived the Great Tribulation and are going into the Kingdom. Mostly Jews, the veil of Moses now lifted from their eyes, This Covenant is to the house of Israel (Heb. 8:10).
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt; For they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his fellow-citizen, And every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: For all shall know me, From the least to the greatest of them.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And their sins will I remember no more.
Heb. 10:16&17 have the same exact language.
The OT economy, was broken into two parts - Before the Law and After the Law.
Before the Law was given, a born again believers, simply believed what Jehovah revealed to them. This was enough to show their faith in the Lord. After the Law and Sacrifices were established, there was more to keep in the way of Commandments. However, they had one thing in common, believing on what the Lord had revealed.
The OT believers from either direct revelation or the Prophets - who we know spoke directly from God. God gave them the words to speak. (Deut. 18:18; Isa. 59:21; Jer. 5:14). When Jehovah spoke in direct revelation, everyone heard Him speak but everyone did not obey His commandments. Only the Elect followed His Commandments and teachings. Therefore, they were the ones born anew and had the abiding presents of the Spirit. The same could be applied to the Prophets when they spoke. The rest of Israel were just rabble following along to see what they could get.
The Old Covenant was based on types and shadows of Christ's person and completed work, after the Levitical Laws were laid down. The New Covenant is based on Christ's blood or if you prefer, on Christ Himself. All of the types and shadows, of the OT economy, of course pointed to Christ and His redemptive work.
While we now possess a clearer image of God's work in Salvation because we have the fully revealed Word in our possession, the OT believers had many of these great Truths as well. But the one requirement of both dispensations, was to believe God. That His Word was Truth. Remember what this verse said: John_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth. Two things are required for proper and acceptable worship - One must be able to commune spiritually. Thus, one must have experienced the new birth and have been made spiritually alive. (Remember, this is before the coming of the Spirit to dwell in believers). - One must worship in Truth, God's revealed Truth in the Scriptures. God does not except error, not even from His own, it must be Truth.
In Heb. 10:16 - the writer is talking about what God will do after those days. What days? The days following Christ's second advent. God, through the Spirit will do these things to those having survived the Great Tribulation and are going into the Kingdom. Mostly Jews, the veil of Moses now lifted from their eyes, This Covenant is to the house of Israel (Heb. 8:10).
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt; For they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, And on their heart also will I write them: And I will be to them a God, And they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his fellow-citizen, And every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: For all shall know me, From the least to the greatest of them.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their iniquities, And their sins will I remember no more.
Heb. 10:16&17 have the same exact language.
That's okay if you want to hold to that. I was simply trying to show you the need to be regenerated before one can discern spiritual things. Your particular view could be misconstrued by many as Gospel Regeneration. If you make it simultaneous with the Gospel, you open the door to those who do not believe that ones nature must be changed to hear and believe the Gospel message. I believe that this is a dangerous approach.
However, if your happy with it, then fine. I was hoping to guide you into all the reasons why this could open the door to a favorable Arminian argument but you seem reluctant to give on your stand. One who does not ask questions but continues to talk their points, is not easily instructed.
However, if your happy with it, then fine. I was hoping to guide you into all the reasons why this could open the door to a favorable Arminian argument but you seem reluctant to give on your stand. One who does not ask questions but continues to talk their points, is not easily instructed.
