Sabbath

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Jan 14, 2021
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You are really making it a habit of misrepresenting scripture by removing verses/passages from their context and causing them to be generalized. Whether its malicious or not, you are also missing important details within certain verses as well as ignoring some key things about my position that I have made very clear...
I have removed nothing. Let onlookers see for themselves. You have falsely accused others of things that you yourself do.

1. Deu 21:18-21 contains both laws that a son is breaking, and a penalty (capital punishment in this case) for breaking laws. Like I've stated many times, the messiah's body paid for the earthly penalties (curses) associated with breaking "old" covenant laws.
No. "Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die" It is an instruction ("you shall do this"). This is the important part: The instruction to parents to submit their unruly children for execution is not a punishment against the parents, but it is part of the law that they must follow. The instruction for the men of the city to perform the execution is not a punishment against the men of the city, but it is part of the law that those men must follow.

The only punishment for the parents and men of the city is if they do not follow the law:

"If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, The Lord Thy God; Then the Lord will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance. Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee. Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the Lord bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed." - Deuteronomy 28:58-61 KJV

There are examples of implemented laws that allowed capital punishment for disobedient sons and daughters that come from Deut 21: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stubborn_Children_Law

Christ fulfilling the law wasn't about "doing the jail-time" or covering the "cost of the punishment" so much as covering the requirements of the law in our stead.

2. I'm not saying that this is what you were inferring, but just in case you were.... this is not speaking of young children. Unruly... yes. And someone's son... yes. But this is speaking of a "bitter, worthless, alcoholic"... not a young kid.
I never mentioned anything about young children or anything age related. But there isn't anything in that part of the law that gives an age limit. The understood tradition in OT was that a person wasn't an adult (wasn't morally responsible for their own actions) until their age of majority (e.g. modern bar/bat mitzvah), which in itself may be a bending of the rules unless there is an explicit OT law stating that young children are free from the law. If they were affirmed into the majority at age 9, they were considered an adult at age 9 and could be subject to that law. The law instructs parents to submit unruly children for execution. The law instructs men of the city (including the father) to stone the child to death.

3. This is one out of context situation in an entire court system... A parent couldn't just decide that his son (not young child) was being unruly and just go stone him. Just like how we have for capital punishments in our society today, there were many other things in place before it could get to that point:
It is absolutely the case that the parents make the initial determination. The first requirement is to bring forth the child and to make the accusation if it is the case. The judge/priesthood/elders is then required to determine whether the accusation meets a standard of evidence. The third requirement is that the men of the city (including the father) stone the guilty child to death.

"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear." - Deuteronomy 21:18-21 KJV

If a parent submits their son for execution and standard of evidence is met, can a judge then say that the son is still innocent in the eyes of the law despite the evidence? Is it a requirement for the judge to honour the law and allow the child to be stoned to death?

Is it a sin against God to disobey this law and spare the child the death penalty?

But that is the law... unless you are suggesting that a priesthood, elder, or judge can adjust the law to the circumstance?

We see interesting examples in the OT of equivalencies. "An eye for an eye" A lost eye needn't be repaid with a literal eye. That lost eye may be repaid with a monetary equivalent (e.g. "free the blinded slave in exchange for the value of his eye"). The law has many examples of fulfilment through equivalency. That doesn't mean that in doing so that the law is ignored or that one becomes an apostate of the law. Hardly.

The New Testament gives the ultimate equivalency for all commands in the law: "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." - Galatians 5:14 KJV

1) Either the law must be completed as written, in legalistic exactitude, and parents are to submit their unruly children for execution, and kill their own children.
Or:
2) The law is fulfilled by equivalency through the new covenant. Love is the equivalent for the specific commandments in the OT. A parent may choose on their own terms (drawing from their heart) how to deal with their children.

There is an insidious nature of equivalents paid without the constraints of coming from a place of God's love shown in the NT. If these equivalents are made without the love of God in our hearts, every sin is simply atoned for by blood sacrifices or trivial activities that by man's standard that are purported as equivalents. The NT tells us that the only equivalent, the only way to truly fulfil the law, is by the love in our heart that comes from God. That love is found through Jesus Christ.

"Transferring" sin to a chicken or some other questionable blood sacrifice on the day of atonement might be a creative way from a man-made perspective to fix the gap between the law and human behaviour. Accidentally flipped the nonkosher light switch in your house on the Shabbat? Kill a chicken on the right day of the year and call it even. Bore false witness against someone you later realized was a fellow tribesman? Maybe kill a bigger animal and call it square. Grab 39 of your buddies, made a solemn oath to God not eat until a particular preacher is killed for heresy, but he skips town and you can't find him in a reasonable time? Give up, eat your fill wipe your mouth, and maybe kill an ox or two for atonement and say you've done nothing wrong. Maybe some animals that were not to be saved from danger are good for sacrifice too?

Some of these equivalents can be made in a loveless fashion. The vast majority of them are man-made and are not from scripture. We could play the games that the Pharisees played and straining gnats at the expense of camels, but the covenant of the new testament is a requirement to truly fulfil the law. Not by word for word letter of the law legalism, but as the equivalency offered through Christ's sacrifice and the inward essence of God's love that is required to grow in order to partake in that covenant.

It would be like a landlord stating that so much money must be paid each month for a lease term, but you present him with 10 bars of gold upfront instead and the landlord finds the alternative arrangement agreeable.

If Christ's sacrifice only covered the penalties of sin, why do women still have periods and painful labour? Clearly this isn't the Christian concept, the Christian concept is that Christ covers the requirements of the law, not the penalty by itself.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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I do believe that the spirital component of the law should be prioritized over the physical. WHAT we are doing is pointless if it isn't done FOR THE RIGHT REASONS.

I just disagree with one sentence that you just posted:

You said: "The Word of God clearly teaches that the Law is fleshly and carnal and is bondage."

1. To me, "The Word of God" is literally what God says.... His Word......... Not the bible, if thats what you were saying (If not, disregard).

2. I don't believe that the law as a whole is bondage. Only sin is (breaking the law). Keeping the law is freedom.



James 1:25

25 But the one who looks at the perfect law of freedom and remains committed to it—thereby demonstrating that he is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of what that law requires—will be blessed in what he does.
Dear Friend i am lol x100 right now - Here is why.....

The Spiritual aspect of the Law is FREEDOM through the Blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
Where was the blood of the lamb placed?
On the MERCY SEAT
Where was the Law
Kept Under the MERCY SEAT

So our Lord's butt sits on the Law - That is what HE thinks about your righteousness through the Law.
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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Just for you rubber ducky....


Exodus 20:8-11

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, maintaining its holiness. 9 Six days you are to labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. You are not to do any work—neither you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your livestock, nor any foreigner who lives among you— 11 because the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything that is in them in six days. Then he rested on the seventh day. Therefore, the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
And if you had kept reading ...

Exodus 31:15 (NKJV)
15 Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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Because that is exaclty what is written in John 3:18
"Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."[/QUOTE]
No Sabbath? It's not nice to twist God's Word!
This is the SAME as this:
And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
Not even close. You are preaching YOUR doctrine not God's.
The Seventh Day is our Lord Jesus Christ.
What??? Scripture please!!!
Are you so dull that you cannot understand this???
Do you really think that God needs rest???

Have you not known? Have you not heard?
The everlasting God, the LORD, The Creator of the ends of the earth, Neither faints nor is weary.
His understanding is unsearchable. Isaiah 40:28
Are you saying all who don't follow YOUR unBilcal Sabbath are going to Hell? I think you are.

"anyone that refuses or works on His Sabbath shall never see LIFE"

You picked a bunch of verses you like that that don't even come close to YOUR Sabbath.
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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"anyone that refuses or works on His Sabbath shall never see LIFE"
Are you saying that all who don't obey Sabbath COMMANDS are going to Hell? Why don't you answer the question?

DavidTree said: "anyone that refuses or works on His Sabbath shall never see LIFE"
 
Aug 2, 2021
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"Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."
No Sabbath? It's not nice to twist God's Word!

Not even close. You are preaching YOUR doctrine not God's.

What??? Scripture please!!!

Are you saying all who don't follow YOUR unBilcal Sabbath are going to Hell? I think you are.

"anyone that refuses or works on His Sabbath shall never see LIFE"

You picked a bunch of verses you like that that don't even come close to YOUR Sabbath.[/QUOTE]

your nuts
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Are you saying that all who don't obey Sabbath COMMANDS are going to Hell? Why don't you answer the question?

DavidTree said: "anyone that refuses or works on His Sabbath shall never see LIFE"
Nope - why are you not able to understand this

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. John 3:18

You only have two choices - can you SEE that?
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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Since you provided no Scripture for proof, have fun with your name calling. Do you really think we are going to Hell for not obeying YOUR Sabbath?

"anyone that refuses or works on His Sabbath shall never see LIFE"
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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Nope - why are you not able to understand this

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. John 3:18

You only have two choices - can you SEE that?
Colossians 2:16 (NKJV)
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

Amen Jesus! I won't.
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Since you provided no Scripture for proof, have fun with your name calling. Do you really think we are going to Hell for not obeying YOUR Sabbath?

"anyone that refuses or works on His Sabbath shall never see LIFE"
and who said it was my sabbath?
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Colossians 2:16 (NKJV)
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

Amen Jesus! I won't.
AGREE - YEAH - i worked yesterday and i worked today - because of Jesus and Collossians 2:16
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
You accused me of contradicting myself, yet failed to point out where the contradiction was.

Writing in caps that "WE CANT KEEP THE LAW" is meaningless to the conversation because I have already said many times that we are not able to keep the law perfectly. So to keep posting that over and over holds no value. I will not be able to keep the law perfectly.... you will not... Adam didn't... Abraham didn't.... Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Moses, Isiah, etc.

None of the biblical patriarchs were sinless, yet still were able to gain righteousness (God's approval).

The purpose of the law was not for us to keep it perfectly. Do you think God didn't know of mans sinful nature after what happened with Adam? Why do you think He kept on making laws after that?

Law gives us the standard to live by.... without it we have chaos. It is how we determine right from wrong. It is needed for mankind as a species to survive and thrive. The first law was procreation..."Be fruitful and multiply". Taking a day of rest, the dietary laws for our health and wellbeing. The law is pro life and pro nature. Disregarding the law is a slippery slope towards destruction.

If you are not keeping the law with the intent to get grace, then you are not "earning grace". Grace is a free byproduct.

Let's say you volunteer to help your neighbor move some furniture into their house. You may even know that they are wealthy and give out money all the time.... But you aren't concerned with that. You just happened to see them struggling and wanted to lend a helping hand. You finish helping them and go about your day. The next day you find a thank you card with $100 in your mailbox from that neighbor. That money was a free gift (grace). You helped your neighbor out of the kindness of your heart... simply because you believed it was the right thing to do. That is why we follow law..... not to do it perfectly.... not to obtain salvation.... simply because its the right thing to do.
Yeti posted you wrgrace is for those who try their best

don’t tell me your not teaching works

then n the next breath say we only get it when we try hard enough

everyone here can read right through it
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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AGREE - YEAH - i worked yesterday and i worked today - because of Jesus and Collossians 2:16
You violate Sabbath COMMANDS and then preach this to us?:

"anyone that refuses or works on His Sabbath shall never see LIFE"
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Yeti posted you wrgrace is for those who try their best

don’t tell me your not teaching works

then n the next breath say we only get it when we try hard enough

everyone here can read right through it
there are some crazy things going up and down on this thread
 

Duckybill

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2021
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wear songlasses - it helps u 2 c

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,
That's only for you? And you said this to us:

"anyone that refuses or works on His Sabbath shall never see LIFE"

And then you work on weekends? The Law preachers are some of the worst hypocrites!
 
Aug 2, 2021
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Then why did you say this?

"anyone that refuses or works on His Sabbath shall never see LIFE"
All of mankind has only Two Choices - To believe God or deny Him.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. John 3:18

Do you remember when Jesus said to the Devil and also to the Religious Leaders this - "It is written"
 
Aug 8, 2021
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I have removed nothing. Let onlookers see for themselves. You have falsely accused others of things that you yourself do.
What I said was "removing verses/passages from their context". I posted multiple other verses in Deuteronomy showing how Deu 21:18-21 is just one situation that still falls under the rules of a court system throughout the book. I see that you didn't address any of those verses.

When you learn the other components of the court system, and you keep Deu 21:18-21 within that context, then it becomes clear that a parent couldn't just decide their child was "unruly" and have him stoned.


It is an instruction ("you shall do this"). This is the important part: The instruction to parents to submit their unruly children for execution is not a punishment against the parents, but it is part of the law that they must follow. The instruction for the men of the city to perform the execution is not a punishment against the men of the city, but it is part of the law that those men must follow.

The only punishment for the parents and men of the city is if they do not follow the law
If I said that this was a "capital punsishment" why would you think I was talking about a punishment to the parent or the men of the city? If found guilty the punishment is for the son.




Christ fulfilling the law wasn't about "doing the jail-time" or covering the "cost of the punishment" so much as covering the requirements of the law in our stead.
What scripture proves this claim?



I never mentioned anything about young children or anything age related. But there isn't anything in that part of the law that gives an age limit. The understood tradition in OT was that a person wasn't an adult (wasn't morally responsible for their own actions) until their age of majority (e.g. modern bar/bat mitzvah), which in itself may be a bending of the rules unless there is an explicit OT law stating that young children are free from the law. If they were affirmed into the majority at age 9, they were considered an adult at age 9 and could be subject to that law. The law instructs parents to submit unruly children for execution. The law instructs men of the city (including the father) to stone the child to death.
So do you believe that Deu 21:18-21 is speaking of young children that are alcoholics?

If you didn't ignore all of the other passages I posted in Deuteronomy that show the other things in the court system required before a person could be found guilty, then maybe you wouldn't keep trying to spin this verse to make it sound like a parent could just have their children stoned as they saw necessary.

It is absolutely the case that the parents make the initial determination. The first requirement is to bring forth the child and to make the accusation if it is the case. The judge/priesthood/elders is then required to determine whether the accusation meets a standard of evidence. The third requirement is that the men of the city (including the father) stone the guilty child to death.
You also had to have at least two witnesses... and false accusations lead to the accuser facing the same penalty associated with the crime. Capital punishments were taken very seriously and did not happen often.

If a parent submits their son for execution and standard of evidence is met, can a judge then say that the son is still innocent in the eyes of the law despite the evidence? Is it a requirement for the judge to honour the law and allow the child to be stoned to death?

Is it a sin against God to disobey this law and spare the child the death penalty?

But that is the law... unless you are suggesting that a priesthood, elder, or judge can adjust the law to the circumstance?
These questions you can study more in the OT to gather your opinion on, but I don't see how they are relevant to God's law being abolished.

Bottom line is.... stoning (capital punishment) is a penalty for breaking law. It is a "curse of the law". The penalties for sin from the "old" covenant were paid with the Messiah's body.



The New Testament gives the ultimate equivalency for all commands in the law: "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." - Galatians 5:14 KJV
People get hung up on these spiritual commandments and think they are some kind of new laws...

Let me share a different translation... ISV:


Galatians 5:14

14 For the whole Law is summarized in a single statement: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.”

This is a summary of the laws dealing with our relationship between us and our fellow man. This is not a new law or something that replaces other laws.


1) Either the law must be completed as written, in legalistic exactitude, and parents are to submit their unruly children for execution, and kill their own children.
Submit their children to who? This makes no sense...

1. This court system no longer exists and the failure to follow the Fathers instructions have already resulted in the Deu 28 curses.

2. Again, capital punishment is a penalty for sin.... The Messiah's death covered all unpaid debt regarding the "old" covenant.


2) The law is fulfilled by equivalency through the new covenant. Love is the equivalent for the specific commandments in the OT. A parent may choose on their own terms (drawing from their heart) how to deal with their children.
That is problem with with lawlessness... Without the law so much is left up to interpretation. What love is to you can be totally different to the next person. What does it mean to love God though?


1 John 5:3

3 For this demonstrates our love for God: We keep his commandments, and his commandments are not difficult


the only way to truly fulfil the law, is by the love in our heart that comes from God. That love is found through Jesus Christ
Surprise surprise, this is actually a statement that I agree with. "Fulfill" means to make complete. The law is incomplete with just the physical component. If your heart is not in the right place the actions don't carry the same weight.


"Transferring" sin to a chicken or some other questionable blood sacrifice on the day of atonement might be a creative way from a man-made perspective to fix the gap between the law and human behaviour. Accidentally flipped the nonkosher light switch in your house on the Shabbat? Kill a chicken on the right day of the year and call it even. Bore false witness against someone you later realized was a fellow tribesman? Maybe kill a bigger animal and call it square. Grab 39 of your buddies, made a solemn oath to God not eat until a particular preacher is killed for heresy, but he skips town and you can't find him in a reasonable time? Give up, eat your fill wipe your mouth, and maybe kill an ox or two for atonement and say you've done nothing wrong. Maybe some animals that were not to be saved from danger are good for sacrifice too?

Some of these equivalents can be made in a loveless fashion. The vast majority of them are man-made and are not from scripture. We could play the games that the Pharisees played and straining gnats at the expense of camels, but the covenant of the new testament is a requirement to truly fulfil the law. Not by word for word letter of the law legalism, but as the equivalency offered through Christ's sacrifice and the inward essence of God's love that is required to grow in order to partake in that covenant.
These are the type of things that the Pharisees would have added, and some of these things you can still find in the jewish talmud today. But of course, these are not the Father's law.... and following the law correctly (physically and spiritually) only leads to blessings.

It would be like a landlord stating that so much money must be paid each month for a lease term, but you present him with 10 bars of gold upfront instead and the landlord finds the alternative arrangement agreeable.
I don't believe that the Father works this way.... Everything He says will happen, happens how He says it will happen. No changes to things he said would last forever.

If Christ's sacrifice only covered the penalties of sin, why do women still have periods and painful labour? Clearly this isn't the Christian concept, the Christian concept is that Christ covers the requirements of the law, not the penalty by itself.
The curse to eve (woman kind) was a generational curse. Just like the Messiah doesn't stop laws that the Father put in place to be carried out forever, he doesn't stop blessings or curses that were to be carried out forever. Things like animal sacrifice and stoning are penalties that were a result of the current sins comitted.