How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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Ecc 10:19 money answereth all things. vs god is the answer.. [No verse contradicts any other verse,] well no not true..and that's on purpose..from god..makes us think struggle...also there is typos an others kinds of Mistakes in different kinds in bibles.Its god spirit that does not make mistakes.
Again, where is the evidence that when Paul writes of the parousia, he is writing of two separate events? You keep ASSUMING that is the case. Assuming that is the case seems to be the basis of pre-trib.
Arguing that 'day' can refer to a time period does not prove that there are two parousia's.
Also, the caps and brackets, which you apparently use for emphasis make your posts hard to read. I tend to jump over them because of the irritating orthography. Caps interfere with sight-word vocabulary. (I have a theory that some lawyers use it, not for emphasis, but to keep us from reading certain parts of contracts.)
Arguing that 'day' can refer to a time period does not prove that there are two parousia's.
Also, the caps and brackets, which you apparently use for emphasis make your posts hard to read. I tend to jump over them because of the irritating orthography. Caps interfere with sight-word vocabulary. (I have a theory that some lawyers use it, not for emphasis, but to keep us from reading certain parts of contracts.)
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Can you stop shouting with the caps, please? Your posts are hard to read.
You should consider that if I Thessalonians 4 indicates that events happen at the same time, that this is evidence against your argument that they are long and drawn out.
You would have to be more specific-- and not litter the message with bolds, caps, and underlines so I can understand what you are saying.
I see no reason from scripture to think the parousia and rapture occur at the beginning of the tribulation. If one argued that Christ and the saints would be up in the air, 'present' for seven years, maybe that could work, but I see no reason to believe that.
Why would Paul write this if the saints weren't going to experience it, if they were going to be raptured out right when it started?
I Thessalonians 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
The rapture occurs at the parousia. This can be translated, in an oversimplified way, perhaps, as 'presence.' Again, if you think Jesus and the saints in the sky in the clouds, that might work, but it doesn't say that.
You should consider that if I Thessalonians 4 indicates that events happen at the same time, that this is evidence against your argument that they are long and drawn out.
You would have to be more specific-- and not litter the message with bolds, caps, and underlines so I can understand what you are saying.
I see no reason from scripture to think the parousia and rapture occur at the beginning of the tribulation. If one argued that Christ and the saints would be up in the air, 'present' for seven years, maybe that could work, but I see no reason to believe that.
Why would Paul write this if the saints weren't going to experience it, if they were going to be raptured out right when it started?
I Thessalonians 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
The rapture occurs at the parousia. This can be translated, in an oversimplified way, perhaps, as 'presence.' Again, if you think Jesus and the saints in the sky in the clouds, that might work, but it doesn't say that.
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IF, you accept that the same author (the Holy Spirit speaking through the Apostle Paul) is saying the SAME Second Coming
in 1 Thessalonians as in 2 Thessalonians - then you are on the Right Path.
1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18
Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Therefore encourage one another with these words.
The Apostle Paul pens a 'Second' letter to inform His Church at Thessalonica ( and us) with irrefutable detail on the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul writes this 'Second' time to correct false reports/doctrines(pre-trib) and gives to Thess and us more detail/info - again on the Second Coming of Christ.
Therefore, His first letter will be the SAME as the Second Letter but with more detail.
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
SAME message as in 1 Thess = His Second Coming and our "being gathered together in Him".
2 Thess ch 2, same author(the Holy Spirit) with more detail = "our being gathered together in Him....will not come until..."
Until when??? = "until the rebellion occurs and man of lawlessness, the son of destruction is revealed."
The Holy Spirit condemns the lie of pre-trib rapture = "alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come."
in 1 Thessalonians as in 2 Thessalonians - then you are on the Right Path.
1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18
Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Therefore encourage one another with these words.
The Apostle Paul pens a 'Second' letter to inform His Church at Thessalonica ( and us) with irrefutable detail on the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul writes this 'Second' time to correct false reports/doctrines(pre-trib) and gives to Thess and us more detail/info - again on the Second Coming of Christ.
Therefore, His first letter will be the SAME as the Second Letter but with more detail.
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
SAME message as in 1 Thess = His Second Coming and our "being gathered together in Him".
2 Thess ch 2, same author(the Holy Spirit) with more detail = "our being gathered together in Him....will not come until..."
Until when??? = "until the rebellion occurs and man of lawlessness, the son of destruction is revealed."
The Holy Spirit condemns the lie of pre-trib rapture = "alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come."
Correct me if I'm mistaken about your view ^ here... Are you saying you believe that the word "Rapture" equals the phrase "the Day of the Lord"??
What I am saying it that these ^ are entirely distinct things:
--our "Rapture" is when WE are "CAUGHT UP / SNATCHed" ..."TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" ("so shall we ever be 'G4862 - UNIONed-with' the Lord"--i.e. in this manner... IOW, this is "how it's goin down"! / how it will take place: the "UNIONed-with" thing
);
--"the Day of the Lord" is ONLY ever located ON THE EARTH (and will unfold over time, in which MUCH will transpire)
These two are not to be equated.
I'm not certain whether you intend to equate them, however. Do you??
What I am saying it that these ^ are entirely distinct things:
--our "Rapture" is when WE are "CAUGHT UP / SNATCHed" ..."TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" ("so shall we ever be 'G4862 - UNIONed-with' the Lord"--i.e. in this manner... IOW, this is "how it's goin down"! / how it will take place: the "UNIONed-with" thing
);--"the Day of the Lord" is ONLY ever located ON THE EARTH (and will unfold over time, in which MUCH will transpire)
These two are not to be equated.
I'm not certain whether you intend to equate them, however. Do you??
^ P.S. what the false conveyors of 2Th2:2 were [or could potentially ever be] saying is, "that the day of the Lord is present / is already here [perfect indicative]"
They were saying not a word about "Rapture" however!
Paul does not say that they were saying anything about "Rapture" (stick with what the text is telling us he said about what it was they were purporting--not what you IMAGINE he said they were purporting).
[the two terms / phrases are NOT equated]
They were saying not a word about "Rapture" however!
Paul does not say that they were saying anything about "Rapture" (stick with what the text is telling us he said about what it was they were purporting--not what you IMAGINE he said they were purporting).
[the two terms / phrases are NOT equated]
Correct me if I'm mistaken about your view ^ here... Are you saying you believe that the word "Rapture" equals the phrase "the Day of the Lord"??
What I am saying it that these ^ are entirely distinct things:
--our "Rapture" is when WE are "CAUGHT UP / SNATCHed" ..."TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" ("so shall we ever be 'G4862 - UNIONed-with' the Lord"--i.e. in this manner... IOW, this is "how it's goin down"! / how it will take place: the "UNIONed-with" thing );
--"the Day of the Lord" is ONLY ever located ON THE EARTH (and will unfold over time, in which MUCH will transpire)
These two are not to be equated.
I'm not certain whether you intend to equate them, however. Do you??
What I am saying it that these ^ are entirely distinct things:
--our "Rapture" is when WE are "CAUGHT UP / SNATCHed" ..."TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR" ("so shall we ever be 'G4862 - UNIONed-with' the Lord"--i.e. in this manner... IOW, this is "how it's goin down"! / how it will take place: the "UNIONed-with" thing
);--"the Day of the Lord" is ONLY ever located ON THE EARTH (and will unfold over time, in which MUCH will transpire)
These two are not to be equated.
I'm not certain whether you intend to equate them, however. Do you??
You do not adhere to the word of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians agrees with 2 Thess agrees with 1 John 2:18 agrees with the Gospels agrees with Revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
His Second Coming takes place first in the AIR - Matt 24:30-31 agrees with Acts 1:9 agrees with 1 Thess & 2 Thess
After our Lord consummates the First Resurrection then after that those who remain will be "caught up" and "gathered together unto Him" in the Air/Clouds. This is His Second Coming TRUTH 101
Further along on that Day comes His Judgement upon the wicked/ungodly/man of sin - 2 Thessalonians ch 2
Truth written for His Children - not for adults and the wisdom of men.
You've totally ignored my question (and I'm beginning to suspect why... )
Are you EQUATING the terms "Rapture" and "the Day of the Lord"??
Simple question.
Are you suggesting that what Paul is telling the Thessalonians about what the false conveyors were purporting had anything to do with "Rapture" (rather than what the TEXT of verse 2 TELLS US it was about: "[purporting] that the DOTL is present / is already here")
[for the readers: "rapture /snatch" will occur in a relatively minimal amount of time (our movement to the "IN THE AIR" thing);
"the Day of the Lord" (all told) INCLUDES all three of the following:
1)--the 7 yr trib/"in quickness [noun]" upon the earth (the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" aspect OF it-1Th5:2-3);
2)--His Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect OF it);
3)-- AND the earthly Millennial Kingdom for 1000 years (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect OF it); ALL THREE ASPECTS are "the DOTL"...
--it is not merely "a singular 24-hr day," nor occurring in a singular moment of time (as our Rapture will occur!) These two terms / phrases are NOT equated]
)Are you EQUATING the terms "Rapture" and "the Day of the Lord"??
Simple question.
Are you suggesting that what Paul is telling the Thessalonians about what the false conveyors were purporting had anything to do with "Rapture" (rather than what the TEXT of verse 2 TELLS US it was about: "[purporting] that the DOTL is present / is already here")
[for the readers: "rapture /snatch" will occur in a relatively minimal amount of time (our movement to the "IN THE AIR" thing);
"the Day of the Lord" (all told) INCLUDES all three of the following:
1)--the 7 yr trib/"in quickness [noun]" upon the earth (the "IN THE NIGHT / DARK / DARKNESS" aspect OF it-1Th5:2-3);
2)--His Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect OF it);
3)-- AND the earthly Millennial Kingdom for 1000 years (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect OF it); ALL THREE ASPECTS are "the DOTL"...
--it is not merely "a singular 24-hr day," nor occurring in a singular moment of time (as our Rapture will occur!) These two terms / phrases are NOT equated]
People trusted their pastors and preacher without studying the word of God themselves. People got complacent, believing it so much easier to just come to church, warm the pews, and believe whatever they're told. The pastors were deceived primarily by a theologian named John Darby who popularized the pre-trib rapture in the later 1800's. Now it's 2021, allegedly, and we're still trying to fix the mess Darby made.
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I never stated that the "IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire [like Lam2:3] INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON those that..." (over the course of SOME TIME, not merely the 24-hr day of His return) takes place and unfolds from His position or "presence" IN THE AIR. Nope. I didn't say or suggest that. = )
[in the same way that Lam2:1-7 is describing events occurring over some time, also]
[in the same way that Lam2:1-7 is describing events occurring over some time, also]