The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???
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Agreed! 
That's exactly when it starts (re: "the DOTL")... SEAL #1! Right on!
That's exactly when it starts (re: "the DOTL")... SEAL #1! Right on!
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
So if seal one is the start of that day and God says that day is a day of wrath. Not to hard to reconcile that huh bro
So if seal one is the start of that day and God says that day is a day of wrath. Not to hard to reconcile that huh bro
...and not merely "a singular 24-hr day"!
[Seal #1 also being the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman (the ARRIVAL of the DOTL time period)... Jesus spoke of the SAME in the PLURAL (SAME WORD) when He referred to "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (they are EQUIVALENT to the SEALS in Rev6! And those are at the STARTING period-of-time of the "7 yrs"... not at its ENDING POINT!)]
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Which Zephaniah 1:14-15 says,
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
So if seal one is the start of that day and God says that day is a day of wrath. Not to hard to reconcile that huh bro
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
So if seal one is the start of that day and God says that day is a day of wrath. Not to hard to reconcile that huh bro
S
@ewq1938 The "Lord's Day" is the day Christ returns to earth as King of kings.
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:9
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORD'S Revelation 19:16 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; Revelation 19:17
John was taken to the Lord’s Day: I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.
Revelation 1:10
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
Christ's return ("The Lord's Day") will not take place until Satan first comes to earth claiming to be Christ.
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:9
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORD'S Revelation 19:16 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; Revelation 19:17
John was taken to the Lord’s Day: I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day.
Revelation 1:10
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
Christ's return ("The Lord's Day") will not take place until Satan first comes to earth claiming to be Christ.
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I reckon this is where we have to part ways and agree to disagree as it is written can two walk together unless they agree. The seals and the trumpets are the wrath of the Lamb and it is in Revelation 11:15-18 when God the Father takes over also known as the great tribulation which will mark the midway point of the tribulation as what follows will be the abomination of desolations pointed out in chapter 13. It says in those verses, And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
So please do take the last word and we will part agreeing to disagree after that you have had the last say bro.
S
Revelation 1:10
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
The "Lord's Day" is the day Christ returns to earth as King of kings.
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:9
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORD'S Revelation 19:16 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; Revelation 19:17
John was taken there - I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Revelation 1:10
Christ's return ("The Lord's Day") will not take place until Satan first comes to earth claiming to be Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
The "Lord's Day" is the day Christ returns to earth as King of kings.
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:9
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORD'S Revelation 19:16 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; Revelation 19:17
John was taken there - I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Revelation 1:10
Christ's return ("The Lord's Day") will not take place until Satan first comes to earth claiming to be Christ.
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When one compares Peter's passage with BOTH CHPTS of Isaiah 34-35 (instead of viewing merely 34:4), then one can see it refers to much more than "a singular 24-hr day"...
... same with the following verse:
"because He has fixed [G2476] A DAY [not merely "a singular 24-hr day"] IN WHICH He will judge the world in righteousness [some versions say, "with/in justice"] through [/in] a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." - Acts 17:31
... which, as I see it, corresponds with Hosea 5:14-6:3's "after TWO DAYS" and "IN THE THIRD DAY" [<--we/Israel shall LIVE IN HIS SIGHT"] (not speaking of "24-hr day" kind of days )
... same with the following verse:
"because He has fixed [G2476] A DAY [not merely "a singular 24-hr day"] IN WHICH He will judge the world in righteousness [some versions say, "with/in justice"] through [/in] a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." - Acts 17:31
... which, as I see it, corresponds with Hosea 5:14-6:3's "after TWO DAYS" and "IN THE THIRD DAY" [<--we/Israel shall LIVE IN HIS SIGHT"] (not speaking of "24-hr day" kind of days
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I had provided the scripture showing which verse speaks of Jesus (not "SITTING / SEATED" at the right hand...), but rather... "STANDING" (5:6) and that is just prior to His taking the book/scroll and opening its FIRST SEAL:
[then I quoted v.9 about His being "WORTHY" to take and to open the book/scroll... (comp.5:4 "WAS FOUND" as I've posted about in past posts)]
[then I quoted v.9 about His being "WORTHY" to take and to open the book/scroll... (comp.5:4 "WAS FOUND" as I've posted about in past posts)]
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That's a bit like saying that every time something unfortunate happens that it's God's wrath which is not the case.
The verses I showed you in my previous posts specifically say the devil is coming down with great wrath, Christians are not appointed to God's wrath, and that there are saints in the great tribulation. God's wrath doesn't come until at the 6th seal, immediately after the great tribulation.
Notice the correlation between Isaiah 13:9-12, Matthew 24:29-31, and Revelation 6:12-17.
"the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken"
You'll notice a common theme here. The signs that occur immediately after the tribulation happen in God's wrath at the 6th seal.
The verses I showed you in my previous posts specifically say the devil is coming down with great wrath, Christians are not appointed to God's wrath, and that there are saints in the great tribulation. God's wrath doesn't come until at the 6th seal, immediately after the great tribulation.
Notice the correlation between Isaiah 13:9-12, Matthew 24:29-31, and Revelation 6:12-17.
"the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken"
You'll notice a common theme here. The signs that occur immediately after the tribulation happen in God's wrath at the 6th seal.
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Heed the Lords warning to you is Deut 4:1-2, Proverbes 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19
pre-trib never came out of the mouth of God - it does not exist in Scripture.
every attempt to establish a pre-trib rapture is done so by adding to or taking away from God's words.
You just did this by adding to Scripture what God did not say - "His wrath is the opening of the Seals"
So now you have created an error to support a false doctrine.
TDW gave you Zeph 1 and you both, in error, attach it where it does not belong - this is the sin of pride.
Compring Scripture to Scripture means that they must Agree and that there is an Order and a Placement.
If you find like-minded Scripture that Agree but you Place them Out of ORDER it will produce error and confusion.
Example: Jesus said specifically His Coming is after the Tribulation - Matt 24
Now if you say He comes before this and look for other Scriptures about His Coming but you place them Before what He said you have created error and a Lie. Error never stops, it builds more and more error.
The error added to pre-trib is to change His Words by saying Matthew 24 is not speaking to His Bride/Church = more error.
Now your mind is 'marked' with error and when you look at scripture the error is directing you - not the Holy Spirit.
Once you embrace the error you cannot be free from it for the error becomes an idol - you begin to love & cherish it.
Only by repentance and turning to the Lord will you be able to see the error for what it is.
But men do not want to repent and so God sends others into their path to say - hey Brother do not add to God's words.
God knows our heart and He searches them to give to every man according to his ways.
If God sees you adding and taking away from His words and you heed not His call to stop, He will leave you in that error.
We must all give an account before Him.
pre-trib never came out of the mouth of God - it does not exist in Scripture.
every attempt to establish a pre-trib rapture is done so by adding to or taking away from God's words.
You just did this by adding to Scripture what God did not say - "His wrath is the opening of the Seals"
So now you have created an error to support a false doctrine.
TDW gave you Zeph 1 and you both, in error, attach it where it does not belong - this is the sin of pride.
Compring Scripture to Scripture means that they must Agree and that there is an Order and a Placement.
If you find like-minded Scripture that Agree but you Place them Out of ORDER it will produce error and confusion.
Example: Jesus said specifically His Coming is after the Tribulation - Matt 24
Now if you say He comes before this and look for other Scriptures about His Coming but you place them Before what He said you have created error and a Lie. Error never stops, it builds more and more error.
The error added to pre-trib is to change His Words by saying Matthew 24 is not speaking to His Bride/Church = more error.
Now your mind is 'marked' with error and when you look at scripture the error is directing you - not the Holy Spirit.
Once you embrace the error you cannot be free from it for the error becomes an idol - you begin to love & cherish it.
Only by repentance and turning to the Lord will you be able to see the error for what it is.
But men do not want to repent and so God sends others into their path to say - hey Brother do not add to God's words.
God knows our heart and He searches them to give to every man according to his ways.
If God sees you adding and taking away from His words and you heed not His call to stop, He will leave you in that error.
We must all give an account before Him.
And i recognize that - but it does not determine that the Day of wrath has come - you do not rightly divide the word of Truth.
You sin in this all the time seeking to establish the heresy of a pre-trib rapture.
And here is the EVIDENCE of your error:
You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did. Which of the prophets did your fathers fail to persecute? They even killed those who foretold the coming of the Righteous One. And now you are His betrayers and murderers— you who received the law ordained by angels, yet have not kept it.”
On hearing this, the members of the Sanhedrin were enraged, and they gnashed their teeth at him.
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently into heaven and saw the glory of God,
and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
You sin in this all the time seeking to establish the heresy of a pre-trib rapture.
And here is the EVIDENCE of your error:
You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did. Which of the prophets did your fathers fail to persecute? They even killed those who foretold the coming of the Righteous One. And now you are His betrayers and murderers— you who received the law ordained by angels, yet have not kept it.”
On hearing this, the members of the Sanhedrin were enraged, and they gnashed their teeth at him.
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently into heaven and saw the glory of God,
and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
"moon INTO BLOOD / BECAME AS BLOOD" (Rev6 / Joel 2:31 "BEFORE the GREAT" aspect OF it) is not the same as "moon SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT" (Matt24:29-31, AFTER the "GREAT" aspect).
You've gotten the "chronology" all BLURRED TOGETHER... like I see many do.
These two distinct moon occurrences are not even DESCRIBED in the same way.
You've gotten the "chronology" all BLURRED TOGETHER... like I see many do.
These two distinct moon occurrences are not even DESCRIBED in the same way.
You continually suggest that Revelation 15:1 is saying something it does not say.
Instead, it says (of the 7 Vials), "for IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED [G5055]" (same G5055 word as is used in 10:7, 11:7, 15:8, 17:17, 20:3,5,7---in ANY of these verses, could the thing being talked about be legitimately said to be "STARTED AND finished [G5055]," in that time being spoken of, as you want to suggest of the Vials?? NO.)
The Vials THEMSELVES lead UP TO His Second Coming to the earth (Armageddon time-slot... Compare Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 with that of the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23])... and the Vials themselves unfold over a period of SOME TIME, leading UP TO that!
(not merely on "a singular 24-hr day" either!)
[1Th5:1-3 DOES CLEARLY tell when "the DOTL" ARRIVES... and yes, it involves His "wrath" as I've pointed out in many past posts...]
Instead, it says (of the 7 Vials), "for IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED [G5055]" (same G5055 word as is used in 10:7, 11:7, 15:8, 17:17, 20:3,5,7---in ANY of these verses, could the thing being talked about be legitimately said to be "STARTED AND finished [G5055]," in that time being spoken of, as you want to suggest of the Vials?? NO.)
The Vials THEMSELVES lead UP TO His Second Coming to the earth (Armageddon time-slot... Compare Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 with that of the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23])... and the Vials themselves unfold over a period of SOME TIME, leading UP TO that!
(not merely on "a singular 24-hr day" either!)
[1Th5:1-3 DOES CLEARLY tell when "the DOTL" ARRIVES... and yes, it involves His "wrath" as I've pointed out in many past posts...]
Interesting. I have argued as well about the chronology. To which I put forth that is what Revelation does serve in part it is a chronology. That when used as such you can actually place each prophecy or event depending on what word you wanna use and it will show the chronology or time line of when something happens and when it is laid out.
Just curious if you have the same mindset or do so yourself?
I find it can't be taken as anything less because of what Christ says when he tells John to write what he has seen, what is, and what will be hereafter.
Of course we know that chapter 4 verse one says at the start, After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
So am able to use Rev as a chronology and place things accordingly by what Christ said, is what is present is the church and what will be future events post the church.
So anyway just curious because this is the first time I have ever heard another brother use chronology and find that if that is off will make interpretation off.
Just curious if you have the same mindset or do so yourself?
I find it can't be taken as anything less because of what Christ says when he tells John to write what he has seen, what is, and what will be hereafter.
Of course we know that chapter 4 verse one says at the start, After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
So am able to use Rev as a chronology and place things accordingly by what Christ said, is what is present is the church and what will be future events post the church.
So anyway just curious because this is the first time I have ever heard another brother use chronology and find that if that is off will make interpretation off.
Yes.
Pretty much the entire book is like a "CALENDAR" (when all the dots are connected).
I see Rev4:1 thru Rev19 to be "mapping out" (as if on a calendar) the "2520 days" (what is commonly called "ONE WEEK" / "7 years") and its date-connections (so to speak) throughout.
Yes.
And the FUTURE aspects are what is said (per 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1) are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (same phrase as is used in both Lk18:8 "AVENGE in quickness"... and Rom16:20 "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET in quickness" [see also 1Cor6:3(14)])
Agree.
Pretty much the entire book is like a "CALENDAR" (when all the dots are connected).
I see Rev4:1 thru Rev19 to be "mapping out" (as if on a calendar) the "2520 days" (what is commonly called "ONE WEEK" / "7 years") and its date-connections (so to speak) throughout.
Yes.
And the FUTURE aspects are what is said (per 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1) are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (same phrase as is used in both Lk18:8 "AVENGE in quickness"... and Rom16:20 "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET in quickness" [see also 1Cor6:3(14)])
Agree.
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