How to defend the doctrine of the Holy Trinity

[DavidTree]

I will assume, this is for me. I usually on check the alert button.


Yes it does say "Let Us ..." Who is the Us? The Us is Elohim. Elohim is a curious word. Jews say it means God. But what do you call a false god - elohim. What do you call a person who does the will of God - elohim. Square the circle. God, wooden idol or human?

If it is God's name, then there must be caveats unsaid as the term is used for idols and humans.
False gods. There was a sitcom of a dinosaur family. The father dinosaur asks the baby to say "Papa". So the baby say "Not Mama". The idol is "not God".
Humans as "of God".

There is one God. Any concept of Divinity is by the One God.

Echad Elohim is translated as 'One United/Altogether Gods'

We speak of God as a singular one because all THREE are a united One. They move and Act Together - never apart or on their own.
Neither are they separate entities but EXIST by EXISTING with No Beginning and No END.
The God head, is explained to us as being the FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT.
We see this in His Word thru the Holy Spirit by faith and obedience.
No one has seen the Father but the Son and no one comes to the Father but thru the Son and no one comes to the Son unless the Father draws them.
They cannot be understood by mans intellect, which is contaminated by sin and limited.

If, you try your very best to understand over a thousand years, you never will unless the Father draws you.

We are not saved by works, nor by any righteousness that we can muster up.

 

[justbyfaith]

1 John 2:20
"But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
Verse 20. - The thought of many antichrists suggests that of many Christs; i.e., many who have been anointed χριστοί by the Christ himself. "The false teachers have the spirit of antichrist; ye have a chrism from the Christ." The Johannine καί places the two antithetical groups side by side, while the emphatic ὑμεῖς (comp. 1 John 4:4) accentuates the contrast. And ye have an anointing from the Holy One. The unction or chrism is the Holy Spirit (John 1:33; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 2:27). As Christ was anointed with the Spirit in all fullness, so each Christian is anointed with him in his measure (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22). The twenty-first 'Catechetical Lecture' of St. Cyril, "On the Holy Chrism," should be read in illustration of this verse. "In apostolic language, each Christian is in due measure himself a Christ, empowered by the gift of the Holy Spirit to announce the truth which he has learnt, to apply the atonement which he has received, to establish the kingdom which he believes to be universal" (Westcott). The ἀπό depends on ἔχετε, not on χρίσμα. The Holy One is Jesus Christ (John 6:69; Acts 3:14; Revelation 3:7; comp. John 14:26; John 16:7, 13). It is hard to decide between three readings:

(1) καὶ οἴδατε πάντα, "and ye know all things" necessary to salvation, i.e., "the truth" (verse 21; John 16:13);

(2) καὶ οἴδατε πάντες, "and ye all know" that ye have this anointing;

(3) οἴδατε πάντες," ye all know - I did not write to you because ye know not the truth." There is evidence of a fourth variation, πάντας "ye know all" the antichrists. If

(1) be right, it does not mean that the Christian is omniscient, but that he has the basis of all knowledge; he can see things in their right proportions. The apostle's own disciple, St. Polycarp, writes to the Philippians "

Right...

"and ye know all things" (1 John 2:20),

means that whenever you hear any doctrine that is not the truth, you can immediately identify it as a doctrine that is not of the truth.

And if you hear any doctrine that is of the truth, you immediately know that it is the truth.

Those who do not have an unction from the holy one do not have this gift of discernment.

 

[justbyfaith]

No one has seen the Father but the Son

See 1 John 14:7-11.

If anyone has seen the Son, they have indeed seen the Father; for the Son has declared Him (John 1:18).

Jesus is therefore the physical manifestation of the Father.

The Father is a Spirit and therefore exists as an incorporeal Spirit, and cannot be seen.

But Jesus is the human manifestation of that Spirit.

Therefore, when we see Jesus, we see the Father (John 14:7-11).

And also, when Christians love one another, God is manifested so that we see Him in the practical manifestation of that love (1 John 4:12).

 

[justbyfaith]

oh ok I must have them on ignore can see there response sorry

A word of advice...

You can ignore people simply by making it your commitment not to respond to them.

You don't have to literally make it so that you can't see their posts.

 

[CS1]

A word of advice...

You can ignore people simply by making it your commitment not to respond to them.

You don't have to literally make it so that you can't see their posts.

NO for some it is far better to do that

 

[DavidTree]

See 1 John 14:7-11.

If anyone has seen the Son, they have indeed seen the Father; for the Son has declared Him (John 1:18).

Jesus is therefore the physical manifestation of the Father.

The Father is a Spirit and therefore exists as an incorporeal Spirit, and cannot be seen.

But Jesus is the human manifestation of that Spirit.

Therefore, when we see Jesus, we see the Father (John 14:7-11).

And also, when Christians love one another, God is manifested so that we see Him in the practical manifestation of that love (1 John 4:12).

The LORD was speaking of ALL who ever existed before HIM and After HIM unless the Father reveals the Son to them.

No one has seen the Father at any time except the SON who is in the bosom of the Father.

Adam & Eve did not walk in the Garden with the Father but with the SON.

Moses did not see the Father but the SON.

God who appeared to Job was the SON.

 

[justbyfaith]

The LORD was speaking of ALL who ever existed before HIM and After HIM unless the Father reveals the Son to them.

No one has seen the Father at any time except the SON who is in the bosom of the Father.

Adam & Eve did not walk in the Garden with the Father but with the SON.

Moses did not see the Father but the SON.

God who appeared to Job was the SON.

And the Father in the Son (John 14:7-11).

 

[Ogom]

FYI Perfect is there yes but it is not contextual to 2tim 3:17 we must use what fix with the text and Authorial intent known as interpretation.

Athuorial intent would be according to the Author. without the Originals, we have the Bible + Spirit + All who have ever been inspired by the Spirit and wrote down their thoughts thoughout the years -- the Body of Christ.(?)

and there is seeking. there is much confusion (Tower of Bable Syndrome and / or just not knowing what it all might mean when one reads the Scriptures). if we seek truth from God (not just our own Interpretation) -- we must be willing to grow in Truth -- and leave all our previous interpretations and/ or ideas as much as we are shown (by God /Spirit) where we must... and/ or put them into proper perspective... i.e. "this was a level... now I understand different and / or more in depth". this changes the interpretation -- for the // - true - // seeker. level upon level, here a little there a little.

 

[peldom10]

Is it correct to assert that the concept of the Holy Trinity might have been invented by the Roman Catholic Church after all?
First let's define what this concept means,
The Holy Trinity is a doctrine that states that God has three personas namely:
a)The Father
b) The Son
c) The Holy Spirit
The doctrine goes further to state that each of these is God and they are one hence the Three in One and One in Three doctrine.
My challenge to this doctrine is if the doctrine holds then that makes Jesus and The Father equal which is false because
Jesus himself said this in John 14:28
"The Father is Greater than I".
The other challenge is that Jesus never emphasized the doctrine when he introduced the Lord's Prayer in Mathew 6:9-13.
The Holy Spirit is not digged into a lot, the picture of the Holy Spirit in the works of salvation comes in after Jesus ascends into the Father. The only verse that supports this doctrine is Mathew 28:19
"...baptise them in the name of the Father, The son and of The Holy Spirit".
I think this could be a big misinterpretation of why Jesus said this, there is no indication that from this Jesus is God or The Holy Spirit is also God, what are your thoughts and interpretation of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity?

God can be as many as He wishes.... in as many places ....and times He proclaims. He can be different in one place vs the other.
This is illustrated best where the Bible says .......not the angels in Heaven nor the Son of Man but our Father only knows the day and hour of the 2nd advent of Christ. Here we can see that God is different in authority than Christ...for this purpose.

There is another message inferred here...God can make Himself lesser but no other can make God lesser.

 

[peldom10]

Was God referring to the Holy Trinity in creation when He said these words "Let us make ", the us refers to the Son and the Holy Ghost? If that is the case then the doctrine holds but scholars shouldn't dig too much into the doctrine, it could cause confusions.

No.
He was referring to Himself, Christ and the Holy Spirit...in the plural sense.

 

[TheLearner]

Read to hear, I am tired --- so, I may have missed something.

Essential Meaning of perfect
1: having no mistakes or flaws
a perfect [=flawless] diamond
Your teeth are perfect.
See More Examples
2: completely correct or accurate
She spoke perfect English.
He drew a perfect circle.
a perfect replica
3: having all the qualities you want in that kind of person, situation, etc.
She's a perfect baby. She hardly cries and she sleeps through the night.
His behavior is a perfect example of what not to do.
In a perfect world [=in the best possible situation], there would be no need for weapons.
Full Definition of perfect (Entry 1 of 3)
1a: being entirely without fault or defect : FLAWLESS
a perfect diamond
b: satisfying all requirements : ACCURATE
c: corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept
a perfect gentleman
d: faithfully reproducing the original
specifically : LETTER-PERFECT
e: legally valid
2: EXPERT, PROFICIENT
practice makes perfect
3a: PURE, TOTAL
b: lacking in no essential detail : COMPLETE
cobsolete : SANE
d: ABSOLUTE, UNEQUIVOCAL
enjoys perfect happiness
e: of an extreme kind : UNMITIGATED
a perfect brat
an act of perfect foolishness
4obsolete : MATURE
5: of, relating to, or constituting a verb form or verbal that expresses an action or state completed at the time of speaking or at a time spoken of
6obsolete
a: CERTAIN, SURE
b: CONTENTED, SATISFIED
7of a musical interval : belonging to the consonances unison, fourth, fifth, and octave which become augmented or diminished when raised or lowered by a half step
8a: sexually mature and fully differentiated
a perfect insect
b: having both stamens and pistils in the same flower
a perfect flower
perfect verb
per·fect | \ pər-ˈfekt also ˈpər-fikt \
perfected; perfecting; perfects
Definition of perfect (Entry 2 of 3)
transitive verb

1: to bring to final form
2: to make perfect : IMPROVE, REFINE
perfect noun
per·fect | \ ˈpər-fikt \
Definition of perfect (Entry 3 of 3)
: the perfect tense of a language
also : a verb form in the perfect tense
Other Words from perfect

Synonyms & Antonyms for perfect
Synonyms: Adjective

absolute, faultless, flawless, ideal, immaculate, impeccable, indefectible, irreproachable, letter-perfect, picture-book, picture-perfect, seamless, unblemished
Synonyms: Verb

complete, consummate, finalize, finish, polish
Antonyms: Adjective

amiss, bad, censurable, defective, faulty, flawed, imperfect, reproachable

 

[TheLearner]

No.
He was referring to Himself, Christ and the Holy Spirit...in the plural sense.

Another theory is he was speaking about angels which also spirits. I nether agree nor disagree with this view.

 

[TheLearner]

Another theory is he was speaking about angels which also spirits. I nether agree nor disagree with this view.

 

[peldom10]

Another theory is he was speaking about angels which also spirits. I nether agree nor disagree with this view.

I can't find it right now....but I recall a similar reference Father, Son and Holy Spirit and itself defined the Three.
Help?.... anyone.

Like many biblical topics are discussed here........it has nothing to do with our eternal salvation. We are reminded....some things are reserved for our Father's knowledge only.

Our time could be better spent referring to things needed done ........for those looking for a relationship with Christ....I submit.

 

[TheLearner]

I can't find it right now....but I recall a similar reference Father, Son and Holy Spirit and itself defined the Three.
Help?.... anyone.

Genesis 41:38
Then Pharaoh told them, “I don’t think we can find anyone better than Joseph to take this job! God’s Spirit is in him, making him very wise!”

Exodus 31:3
I have filled Bezalel with the Spirit of God—I have given him the skill and knowledge to do all kinds of things.

John 4:24
God is spirit. So the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

 

[Absolutely]

A word of advice...

You can ignore people simply by making it your commitment not to respond to them.

You don't have to literally make it so that you can't see their posts.

...because your way is the only way?

 

[Absolutely]

Read to hear, I am tired --- so, I may have missed something.

Essential Meaning of perfect
1: having no mistakes or flaws
a perfect [=flawless] diamond
Your teeth are perfect.
See More Examples
2: completely correct or accurate
She spoke perfect English.
He drew a perfect circle.
a perfect replica
3: having all the qualities you want in that kind of person, situation, etc.
She's a perfect baby. She hardly cries and she sleeps through the night.
His behavior is a perfect example of what not to do.
In a perfect world [=in the best possible situation], there would be no need for weapons.
Full Definition of perfect (Entry 1 of 3)
1a: being entirely without fault or defect : FLAWLESS
a perfect diamond
b: satisfying all requirements : ACCURATE
c: corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept
a perfect gentleman
d: faithfully reproducing the original
specifically : LETTER-PERFECT
e: legally valid
2: EXPERT, PROFICIENT
practice makes perfect
3a: PURE, TOTAL
b: lacking in no essential detail : COMPLETE
cobsolete : SANE
d: ABSOLUTE, UNEQUIVOCAL
enjoys perfect happiness
e: of an extreme kind : UNMITIGATED
a perfect brat
an act of perfect foolishness
4obsolete : MATURE
5: of, relating to, or constituting a verb form or verbal that expresses an action or state completed at the time of speaking or at a time spoken of
6obsolete
a: CERTAIN, SURE
b: CONTENTED, SATISFIED
7of a musical interval : belonging to the consonances unison, fourth, fifth, and octave which become augmented or diminished when raised or lowered by a half step
8a: sexually mature and fully differentiated
a perfect insect
b: having both stamens and pistils in the same flower
a perfect flower
perfect verb
per·fect | \ pər-ˈfekt also ˈpər-fikt \
perfected; perfecting; perfects
Definition of perfect (Entry 2 of 3)
transitive verb

1: to bring to final form
2: to make perfect : IMPROVE, REFINE
perfect noun
per·fect | \ ˈpər-fikt \
Definition of perfect (Entry 3 of 3)
: the perfect tense of a language
also : a verb form in the perfect tense
Other Words from perfect

Synonyms & Antonyms for perfect
Synonyms: Adjective

absolute, faultless, flawless, ideal, immaculate, impeccable, indefectible, irreproachable, letter-perfect, picture-book, picture-perfect, seamless, unblemished
Synonyms: Verb

complete, consummate, finalize, finish, polish
Antonyms: Adjective

amiss, bad, censurable, defective, faulty, flawed, imperfect, reproachable

Mature is basically the same thing.
From websters;

MATU'RE, adjective [Latin maturus; meto.]

1. Ripe; perfected by time or natural growth; as a man of mature age. We apply it to a young man of mature age. We apply it to a young man who has arrived to the age when he is supposed to be competent to manage his own concerns; to a young woman who is fit to be married; and to elderly men who have much experience.

Their prince is a man of learning and virtue,

mature in years-

2. Brought to perfection; used of plants. The wheat is mature

3. Completed; prepared; ready. The plan or scheme was mature


4. Ripe; come to suppuration; as, the tumor is mature

MATU'RE, verb transitive [Latin maturo.] To ripen; to hasten to a perfect state; to promote ripeness.


1. To advance towards perfection.

MATU'RE, verb intransitive To advance toward ripeness; to become ripe or perfect. Wine matures by age, or by agitation in a long voyage. The judgment matures by age and experience.

You are welcome

 

[justbyfaith]

...because your way is the only way?

Inasmuch as Jesus is the way and the truth and the life; and no one comes to the Father except through Him, yes.

Because I have made the Christian way, my way.

If my way were not the Christian way, then no, my way is not the only way.

My way is the only way only inasmuch as my way is the Christian way; which is the only way.

John 14:6, Matthew 7:13-14.

 

[justbyfaith]

Mature is basically the same thing.
From websters;

MATU'RE, adjective [Latin maturus; meto.]

1. Ripe; perfected by time or natural growth; as a man of mature age. We apply it to a young man of mature age. We apply it to a young man who has arrived to the age when he is supposed to be competent to manage his own concerns; to a young woman who is fit to be married; and to elderly men who have much experience.

Their prince is a man of learning and virtue,

mature in years-

2. Brought to perfection; used of plants. The wheat is mature

3. Completed; prepared; ready. The plan or scheme was mature


4. Ripe; come to suppuration; as, the tumor is mature

MATU'RE, verb transitive [Latin maturo.] To ripen; to hasten to a perfect state; to promote ripeness.


1. To advance towards perfection.

MATU'RE, verb intransitive To advance toward ripeness; to become ripe or perfect. Wine matures by age, or by agitation in a long voyage. The judgment matures by age and experience.

You are welcome

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-meaning-of-mature.202005/

 

[Absolutely]

The Greek "artios" (I am uncertain where you have a Hebrew translation of NT scriptures).

Transliteration
artios (Key)
Pronunciation
ar'-tee-os

Part of Speech
adjective
Root Word (Etymology)
From ἄρτι (G737)
Greek Inflections of ἄρτιος [?]
mGNT
1x in 1 unique form(s) TR
1x in 1 unique form(s) LXX
1x in 1 unique form(s)
ἄρτιος — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
TDNT Reference: 1:475,80
KJV Translation Count — Total: 1x
The KJV translates Strong's G739 in the following manner: perfect (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. fitted
2. complete, perfect
   1. having reference apparently to "special aptitude for given uses"

Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
ἄρτιος ártios, ar'-tee-os; from G737; fresh, i.e. (by implication) complete:—perfect.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS NT 739: ἄρτιος
ἄρτιος, -α, -ον, (ΑΡΩ to fit, [cf. Curtius, § 488]);
1. fitted.
2. complete, perfect, [having reference apparently to 'special aptitude for given uses']; so 2 Timothy 3:17 [cf. Ellicott at the passage; Trench, § xxii.]. (In Greek writings from Homer down.)

Mature is basically the same thing.
From websters;

MATU'RE, adjective [Latin maturus; meto.]

1. Ripe; perfected by time or natural growth; as a man of mature age. We apply it to a young man of mature age. We apply it to a young man who has arrived to the age when he is supposed to be competent to manage his own concerns; to a young woman who is fit to be married; and to elderly men who have much experience.

Their prince is a man of learning and virtue,

mature in years-

2. Brought to perfection; used of plants. The wheat is mature

3. Completed; prepared; ready. The plan or scheme was mature


4. Ripe; come to suppuration; as, the tumor is mature

MATU'RE, verb transitive [Latin maturo.] To ripen; to hasten to a perfect state; to promote ripeness.


1. To advance towards perfection.

MATU'RE, verb intransitive To advance toward ripeness; to become ripe or perfect. Wine matures by age, or by agitation in a long voyage. The judgment matures by age and experience.

You are welcome