Cessation of Gifts

[Nehemiah6]

o, you couldn't just set up an experiment...

Not an experiment. But linguists did attend charismatic meetings, made recordings, analyzed tongues, and concluded that they were not real human languages.

 

[shittim]

Other scientists have found tongues do not originate in the regular speech centers of the brain.
I know of several people who have found what their prayer language was, and it was indeed a genuine language.

 

[DavidTree]

The problem is that the same Bible used to "prove" the gifts are for today (my conviction) is used by those who think that the church is now perfect and so does not need the power of the Holy Spirit. OK, that's a bit sarcastic. I do not believe that what you are asking is possible.

Absolutely provable by Scripture: Paul made it very clear that the 'Perfect' is Christ and when we are Face to Face with the Glorified Resurrected Christ then the Gifts (childish things) will no longer be needed.
IMMEDIATELY after the Apostle Paul tells us the time of Cessation = Face to Face, Paul intsrtucts us to seek after Holy Spirit Gift:
1 Cor 14
Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit. 3But he who prophesies speaks to men for their edification, encouragement, and comfort. 4The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.
5I wish that all of you could speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church may be edified.

IMPORTANT: only the LORD or one of the Apostles has the authority to declare a 'Cessation of Gifts' - PERIOD
Anyone who says -'the Gifts have Ceased are in error, ignorance and serious sin and judgement upon those who are learned.'

***** There are other Witnesses to the Gifts of the Spirit which i encourage you to seek and find that your confidence and joy in the Holy Spirit will be even stronger then it is now. *****

 

[Absolutely]

Dear Lucy - this is not your IMHO - You are the WINNER for you found the TRUTH = clear as Day

When we are Face to Face with our LORD - the Gifts come off = WHY?

When is a man and woman Face to Face?

When they are enter into their Marriage Chamber.

For while we are on earth we are longing for Him and the Resurrection - to fully put on Christ

Right on hermano

 

[DavidTree]

Well, I guess what I mean is, speaking in tongues is "as the spirit gives the utterance" right? So, you couldn't just set up an experiment and be like "ok, god, give me an utterance, so I can prove my gift" because I think that would fall under 'tempting the lord' because it's not something he has asked us to test him in. Spiritual gifts are supposed to be for the edification of the body- which is people that already believe- so, they aren't really given to provide scientific evidence of anything: rather, it is just a sign for people who just happen to experience it.

I say that the narrative support is sandy because while there are instances of something happening (like people immediately speaking in tongues after receiving the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts), I don't think those instances of it occurring are sufficient to make it into doctrine that it will always happen that way. It's putting God in a box that he did not put himself into.
As far as I can tell, in the book of Acts, instances where people spoke in tongues when receiving the holy ghost make a lot of sense. There is mixed company-Hebrews, proselytes, and gentiles- who probably didn't all speak each other's languages fluently. Whereas in instances where it wouldn't make sense, like Paul's encounter with Annanias, speaking in tongues isn't mentioned- yet people will insist that it did happen, when there's no reason to assume it did.

Agreed. But that is not how the OP is presented. Here's the opening paragraph:

"Preacher John McArthur, Baptists, Dispensation and others had declared that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, most especially speaking in Tongues, had CEASED with the departure of the Apostles."

There are about twenty spiritual gifts recorded in Scripture, but it seems tongues and healings get all the attention. Why? Does the flesh delight in a "show" of spirituality?

This is to address two Posts SomeDisciple #85 and Nehimiah6 #99 -

The Gift of Speaking in Tongues gets Special attention from God because #1 It PLEASES HIM and #2 HE Joyfully said so:

Then John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove and resting on Him. 33I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”

And while they were gathered together, He commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw tongues like flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

GOD the FATHER made a very clear, pronounced, authentic Signature on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

HE could of chosen any of the Gifts on the Ourpouring of the Holy Spirit but HE only chose a Specific one = Speaking in Tongues.

Now - i will stop here so that you can meditate on this and let it dwell in your hearts for Peace and Understanding.

There are reasons that the FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT have concerning this = seek it out

 

[CS1]

Agreed. But that is not how the OP is presented. Here's the opening paragraph:

"Preacher John McArthur, Baptists, Dispensation and others had declared that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, most especially speaking in Tongues, had CEASED with the departure of the Apostles."

There are about twenty spiritual gifts recorded in Scripture, but it seems tongues and healings get all the attention. Why? Does the flesh delight in a "show" of spirituality?

that is opinionated. the issue is not the attention of only these two gifts, it is the abuse of them, which Paul was addressing in 1cor chapter 12 through 14.

It is the false narrative of those who took improperly the text of 1cor 13:8-10 to mean the gifts are no longer for today and have ceased.

It is the secular Humanism by those professing Christians used to teach the gifts of the Holy Spirit which is supernatural from linguistic analysis.


here is the error:

The Bible does not speak about glossolalia. Just glossa, glossais, and dialektos, In modern parlance "languages" or "dialects". And why wouldn't God allow scientific analysis of anything? After all He is the one who created the laws of science. If some native speaker of English started speaking Farsi* supernaturally, that would be subject to linguistic analysis. But even those who practice tongues go through language schools in order to speak foreign languages.


First off Glossolalia is used in context to speaking in an unknown language from the word of God. Paul taught on this very clearly in chapter 14 of 1Corthinans. God did not create the law of Science.


Science: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

God created because he spoke things into being. Science is a method of study man uses to study the law of God.

FYI without the Holy Spirit the linguist, the scientist, and those who learned a foreign language cannot understand the things of God, the Holy Spirit, or His word.

it is not that the gifts are not for today it is that those who God entrusted with them have abused them. Paul provided the correction and how to properly use them found in 1cor chapter 12 through 14.

Here is another thing those who say the gifts are no longer needed when the bible came to be, have clearly failed to see that after the canonization of the Bible 1cor chapters 12 through 14 is still there. why? because the Church was still experiencing these gifts.

 

[CS1]

that is opinionated. the issue is not the attention of only these two gifts, it is the abuse of them, which Paul was addressing in 1cor chapter 12 through 14.

It is the false narrative of those who took improperly the text of 1cor 13:8-10 to mean the gifts are no longer for today and have ceased.

It is the secular Humanism by those professing Christians used to teach the gifts of the Holy Spirit which is supernatural from linguistic analysis.


here is the error:

The Bible does not speak about glossolalia. Just glossa, glossais, and dialektos, In modern parlance "languages" or "dialects". And why wouldn't God allow scientific analysis of anything? After all He is the one who created the laws of science. If some native speaker of English started speaking Farsi* supernaturally, that would be subject to linguistic analysis. But even those who practice tongues go through language schools in order to speak foreign languages.


First off Glossolalia is used in context to speaking in an unknown language from the word of God. Paul taught on this very clearly in chapter 14 of 1Corthinans. God did not create the law of Science.


Science: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

God created because he spoke things into being. Science is a method of study man uses to study the law of God.

FYI without the Holy Spirit the linguist, the scientist, and those who learned a foreign language cannot understand the things of God, the Holy Spirit, or His word.

it is not that the gifts are not for today it is that those who God entrusted with them have abused them. Paul provided the correction and how to properly use them found in 1cor chapter 12 through 14.

Here is another thing those who say the gifts are no longer needed when the bible came to be, have clearly failed to see that after the canonization of the Bible 1cor chapters 12 through 14 is still there. why? because the Church was still experiencing these gifts.

Charismatics and Pentecostals which I am one and I say unapologetically. Know of the abuses of some in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Yet that has been addressed except for those who are rebels and independent and have left out on their own mostly. They sought money and exploited the Gifts to make it. Just like the office of Pastor which has been abused from the very time, it was used to call men by God to that office, so are the gifts of the Holy Spirit abused too. No office is more abused than that of the Pastor and not more needed today.

Has God removed that gift from the church because of the abuses? No.

the ignorance and immaturity in using the gifts are well seen. However, just like the good Pastors, they are not amplified as the bad, because Bad news and controversy sell.

The same with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Proper use of them and correction when they are not is what is supposed to happen in our churches.


I think some here would Just rudely not correct them and ask them to leave because they are so perfect. FYI the church is for edification, comfort, correction, and equipping. teaching, discipleship, and sending out.

All the gifts of the Holy Spirit are needed today more than ever. All of them.

 

[DavidTree]

Not an experiment. But linguists did attend charismatic meetings, made recordings, analyzed tongues, and concluded that they were not real human languages.

And that scientific evidence bows it's knee unto Scripture:

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,

Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God,
for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.
He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.
I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

Do not let the abuses of modern 'christian' churches and religions deter you from the love of the Holy Spirit.

 

[EmilyNats]

As a general rule of thumb, if the Bible does not specifically say that something has ceased, then there is no good reason to just assume that it has. Doing stuff like that only gives the unbelievers more reason to mock us.

 

[SaltwaterGirl]

Preacher John McArthur, Baptists, Dispensation and others had declared that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, most especially speaking in Tongues, had CEASED with the departure of the Apostles.

Could this be true? If , Yes, then speaking in tongues would be counterfeit and even demonic.

God is not the Author of confusion and somebody is in great error.

. . .
I Corinthians 14:1 "Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy."

Joel 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see vision:"


Joel 2:29 "And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My spirit."

 

[SaltwaterGirl]

"But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

- Mark 13:11 (NKJV)

 

[SaltwaterGirl]

Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and
began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? "And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, "Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, "Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "Whatever could this mean?" Others mocking said, "They are full of new wine." But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. "For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.

- Acts 2:3-18 (NKJV)

 

[DavidTree]

Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and
began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? "And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, "Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, "Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "Whatever could this mean?" Others mocking said, "They are full of new wine." But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. "For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.

- Acts 2:3-18 (NKJV)

For the GRAND PRIZE of TRUTH = can you find the Original (First) Prophetic Authority for the Gifts of the Holy Spirit for His Bride

 

[DavidTree]

Member SaltwaterGirl has brought forth more Witnesses to the Holy Spirit Outpouring - Thank You

For the GRAND PRIZE of TRUTH = Find the Original (First) Prophetic Authority for the Gifts of the Holy Spirit for His Bride

 

[SaltwaterGirl]

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever — "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

- John 14:16-18,23,26 (NKJV)

 

[DavidTree]

"And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever — "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

- John 14:16-18,23,26 (NKJV)

Another Faithful Witness - ty

Grand Prize - Find the First Authoritative Prophecy of the Holy Spirit Gifts for His Bride.

 

[Mofastus]

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Philippians 1:15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: 16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

 

[Mofastus]

2 Corinthians 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

2 Corinthians 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

2Corinthians 10:9 That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters.

2Corinthians 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

2 Corinthians 10:11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present.

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

2 Corinthians 10:13 But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.

2Corinthians 10:14 For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:

2Corinthians 10:15 Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,

2Corinthians 10:16 To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.

2 Corinthians 10:17 But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

 

[Mofastus]

Isaiah 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

Isaiah 58:9 Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;

Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[Mofastus]

and let's not forget the context of 1 Corinthians 13 that begins with first 3 verses, since it's scripture only!

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.