Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
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yeah that’s my favorite book in scripture we actually are getting the father son and holy ghosts teaching in one because he is one !!
to me johns gospel is in the frame of the book of revelation the same spirit of revalation revealing who Christ really is is what I mean johns gospel is very different from the other three
have you ever tried studying johns books with his other books ? Man that’s the most edification I’ve ever found in scripture by far and it’s pretty cool because that makes Paul’s letters perfectly clear and breaks them down owing what a cohesive unit the apostles really were in preaching the gospel at the first
John , 1 John , 2 John , and revelation together have the most revelation of any books in scripture including Paul’s epistles
to me johns gospel is in the frame of the book of revelation the same spirit of revalation revealing who Christ really is is what I mean johns gospel is very different from the other three
have you ever tried studying johns books with his other books ? Man that’s the most edification I’ve ever found in scripture by far and it’s pretty cool because that makes Paul’s letters perfectly clear and breaks them down owing what a cohesive unit the apostles really were in preaching the gospel at the first
John , 1 John , 2 John , and revelation together have the most revelation of any books in scripture including Paul’s epistles
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Abide in the flesh, or depart from the flesh and be with Christ which is far better…
Philippians 1:
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
Philippians 1:
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
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Amen
“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 KJV
there’s no mystery where a believer goes when they part the flesh out flesh is holding us back in due time we will shed our earthly prison and be set free into life !!
“Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
2 Corinthians 5:6-8 KJV
there’s no mystery where a believer goes when they part the flesh out flesh is holding us back in due time we will shed our earthly prison and be set free into life !!
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“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.”
1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV
“It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”
1 Corinthians 15:44, 47, 49 KJV
Flesh + spirit = living soul ( Adam mankind )
living soul + sin = sentance of death
Living soul - flesh = living spirit returning to God In heaven
we are made for earth now , but we’re going to be translated !
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
John 4:24
“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
… And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made,
that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:”
Hebrews 12:22-24, 27-28 KJV
The dust we’re made from our body is part of creation and will be removed it’s temporary but the life inside of man came out of God when he breathed his living spirit into our body. That can’t be removed because life comes out from Gods being and he’s eternal spirit is forever only the creation is going to be removed and remade
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV
“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.”
1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV
“It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”
1 Corinthians 15:44, 47, 49 KJV
Flesh + spirit = living soul ( Adam mankind )
living soul + sin = sentance of death
Living soul - flesh = living spirit returning to God In heaven
we are made for earth now , but we’re going to be translated !
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
John 4:24
“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
… And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made,
that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:”
Hebrews 12:22-24, 27-28 KJV
The dust we’re made from our body is part of creation and will be removed it’s temporary but the life inside of man came out of God when he breathed his living spirit into our body. That can’t be removed because life comes out from Gods being and he’s eternal spirit is forever only the creation is going to be removed and remade
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ecc. 12:7 is the exact reverse of Gen 2:7, the breath of life returns to God who gave it. The soul can't return to heaven it it has never been there.. Without the Spirit of God in us we are no longer a living soul.
Ecc. 12:7 is the exact reverse of Gen 2:7, the breath of life returns to God who gave it. The soul can't return to heaven it it has never been there.. Without the Spirit of God in us we are no longer a living soul.
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Amen ! we’re being planted grown and farmed in this world to fill the new world to come with Gods children. Our time here we get to test our character and work out our flaws based on believing his promises in the gospel .
What I mean is this
“Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest:
and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
…He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Matthew 13:24-30, 37-43 KJV
this world is only the first step in his plan we’re being renewed for this eternal place apart from evil and death with Jesus
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
Revelation 21:1-5 KJV
first is the temporal where we are grown and eventually harvested when we pass away the second world is the eternal !!!! Now well Be who we became and have the people we have forever with him !!!!
It’s why we believe
What I mean is this
“Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest:
and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
…He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Matthew 13:24-30, 37-43 KJV
this world is only the first step in his plan we’re being renewed for this eternal place apart from evil and death with Jesus
“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”
Revelation 21:1-5 KJV
first is the temporal where we are grown and eventually harvested when we pass away the second world is the eternal !!!! Now well Be who we became and have the people we have forever with him !!!!
It’s why we believe
living spirit returning to God In heaven, = you are presuming that this spirit is a person.
Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
living soul + sin = sentance of death = death is death, for the whole being, not just the flesh. a dead soul is not able to worship God.
We have life in Jesus, My life is found in Christ alone.
I do not have life in myself and live after death, i am mortal.
Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
living soul + sin = sentance of death = death is death, for the whole being, not just the flesh. a dead soul is not able to worship God.
We have life in Jesus, My life is found in Christ alone.
I do not have life in myself and live after death, i am mortal.
Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
Romans 3:23 KJV
Now add this redemption
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24
It seems you may not be temporal just the part of you that’s made of dirt. And the living part of you inside that feels , thinks , chooses to act , loves ect is going to return to God and live forever if so one chooses to believe the promises of the New Testament and look away from the sin and death of the Old Testament before Christ came to restore us to Life
christianity is eternal brother and so are Christians if they choose to hear and believe the lords word
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51 KJV
Christians are about here
“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
“And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
Hebrews 12:22-24
Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
Romans 3:23 KJV
Now add this redemption
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24
It seems you may not be temporal just the part of you that’s made of dirt. And the living part of you inside that feels , thinks , chooses to act , loves ect is going to return to God and live forever if so one chooses to believe the promises of the New Testament and look away from the sin and death of the Old Testament before Christ came to restore us to Life
christianity is eternal brother and so are Christians if they choose to hear and believe the lords word
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51 KJV
Christians are about here
“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
“And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
Hebrews 12:22-24
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i agree with what you are quoting, we will never die when we are raised from death, we have eternal life in Jesus.
i have everlasting life because i have Jesus as my propitiation, When He returns eternal life will be given to the saved. Better life then this world because i will be perfect and sin free. Passing from death unto life happens now but we are waiting for the resurrection to experience heaven. no time in sleep.
i have everlasting life because i have Jesus as my propitiation, When He returns eternal life will be given to the saved. Better life then this world because i will be perfect and sin free. Passing from death unto life happens now but we are waiting for the resurrection to experience heaven. no time in sleep.
Phoneman-777 said:
The fact that Abraham speaks is proof it's a parable, because David said dead guys go down into "silence".
Good question. But, the fact that Jesus actually named a real person who has died is the proof that He wasn't telling a parable. All of His parables were generic in the fact that no names were given to identify people.
And if the idea of soul sleep were true, Jesus' account would be really bizarre.
Why would Jesus throw everyone off by a story about the after life where the dead are talking to each other, if that doesn't occur.
Jesus' parables were stories about normal life that everyone can relate to and illustrate a truth.
For example, the prodigal (idiot) son was a story about loss of fellowship between a father and son. According to scholars regarding 1st century Palestine, for a son to ask his living father for his share in an inheritance wa the HEIGHT of insult. It was comparable to telling ol' Dad "I wish you were dead, but since you aren't yet, just give me my cut so I can split and get away from you".
When 21st Century minds realize that rather unknown fact, it puts a whole new light on the parable. Too many people error and see it as a story about losing and gaining back salvation. In fact, it is about a son breaking fellowship with Dad, finally coming to his senses (repenting), confessing his sin and returning to Dad (restoration of fellowship). It's nothing more than that.
The fact that Abraham speaks is proof it's a parable, because David said dead guys go down into "silence".
Good question. But, the fact that Jesus actually named a real person who has died is the proof that He wasn't telling a parable. All of His parables were generic in the fact that no names were given to identify people.
And if the idea of soul sleep were true, Jesus' account would be really bizarre.
Why would Jesus throw everyone off by a story about the after life where the dead are talking to each other, if that doesn't occur.
Jesus' parables were stories about normal life that everyone can relate to and illustrate a truth.
For example, the prodigal (idiot) son was a story about loss of fellowship between a father and son. According to scholars regarding 1st century Palestine, for a son to ask his living father for his share in an inheritance wa the HEIGHT of insult. It was comparable to telling ol' Dad "I wish you were dead, but since you aren't yet, just give me my cut so I can split and get away from you".
When 21st Century minds realize that rather unknown fact, it puts a whole new light on the parable. Too many people error and see it as a story about losing and gaining back salvation. In fact, it is about a son breaking fellowship with Dad, finally coming to his senses (repenting), confessing his sin and returning to Dad (restoration of fellowship). It's nothing more than that.
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FreeGrace2 said:
Read Genesis 2:7 as many times as it takes to comprehend. When God breathed the soul into the flesh, Adam became a living being.
Your previous post had a comment about the soul being part of the flesh. No, it is separate from the flesh. And when our ol' bodies finally die, the soul leaves the body. James 2:26 says so.
In fact, James 2:26 is a definition of physical death; the soul leaving the body.
So the soul is NOT "part of the body".
Read Genesis 2:7 as many times as it takes to comprehend. When God breathed the soul into the flesh, Adam became a living being.
Your previous post had a comment about the soul being part of the flesh. No, it is separate from the flesh. And when our ol' bodies finally die, the soul leaves the body. James 2:26 says so.
In fact, James 2:26 is a definition of physical death; the soul leaving the body.
So the soul is NOT "part of the body".
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um..
you know that guy you were praising saying you agree 100% with?
he is the one saying every living soul is annihilated and ceases to exist:
he is saying that the existence of every living creature is only in the body.
he is saying every living creature is utterly destroyed by dust returning to dust.
he is saying all life ceases to exist.
you are saying you are his disciple and you are cursing everyone else who is opposing him.
so it's like i told you earlier: you do not seem to understand what you are reading.
being super-aggressive in a conversation that you don't comprehend is a recipe for embarassing ones self.
you know that guy you were praising saying you agree 100% with?
he is the one saying every living soul is annihilated and ceases to exist:
he is saying that the existence of every living creature is only in the body.
he is saying every living creature is utterly destroyed by dust returning to dust.
he is saying all life ceases to exist.
you are saying you are his disciple and you are cursing everyone else who is opposing him.
so it's like i told you earlier: you do not seem to understand what you are reading.
being super-aggressive in a conversation that you don't comprehend is a recipe for embarassing ones self.