Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[Laura798]

Please show me any other parable where Jesus named names. And of real people, no less. Go ahead.


Oh, yes. I refuse to accept your totally nonbiblical notions.


Seems you sure like to make up a lot of stuff. I've never even addressed these things that you now bring up. As to your BOGUS charge that I somehow think believers will never face judgment, what nonsense. EVERY believer will be judged at the Bema, or the Judgment Seat of Christ, 2 Cor 5:10.

You need to be much more careful before posting such tripe. iow, get your facts straight before embarrassing yourself.


Just please answer my questions.

1. How is no longer existing, meaning no more negative emotions, no more pain, etc a punishment?
2. What is Jesus saving us FROM, since there will be NO CONSEQUENCES for any kind of behavior?
3. Why won't you address all the verses that have been giving proving that there is life after death, not some kind of slumber party until the resurrection?

But I thought you believed believers go straight to heaven when they die?

If so that would mean 1. They are immortal 2. They got in without their wedding clothes/immortal bodies 3. They didn't have to be escorted by Jesus 4. They got in the door without facing the Judgment. Hmmm.. why would Jesus bother going to the trouble to 'gather the elect' or judge the world if both believers and unbelievers go directly to there respective destinations?


Love your Christ like descriptions of me and pm, btw: 'made up stuff' , 'garbage', 'tripe', 'your embarrassing yourself'....

I find it curious that those who are intelligent can recognize intelligence in others, whereas those who are less intelligent actually think they are smarter than everyone else in the room. Also, the less intelligent always without exception use ad hominem attacks.

To believe in ECT is to ignore a mountain of literal verses that say death/destruction are the punishment for sin.

There's no reasoning with you--you truly believe your false doctrine is the truth--there's no point in discussing it further. I feel like a university student trying to explain calculus to a first grader....

PS Scripture is not 'made up stuff.'

 

[ewq1938]

how is it punishment if they don't even exist?

That's the punishment! Do you think the same about the death penalty? That's not a punishment? The second death is permanent with no chance of resurrection.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Those things are promised not to exist in the eternity, proving eternal torture to be false.

Unbelievable! Those things are promised to not exist in eternity ONLY for the saved. Never the unsaved. I thought believers read their Bible and knew these things.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Please read the whole context to understand who this refers to. It sure ain't the unsaved.

A lot of negative things will not exist in the future.

Wiping tears away means no more tears. Tears will not exist.
There shall be no more death. Death will not exist.
There shall be no more sorrow. Sorrow will not exist.
There shall be no more crying. Crying will not exist.
There shall be no more pain. Pain will not exist.

In the weird theory of ceasing to exist, the reality is that NONE of these things will exist.

Atheists will just LOVE your ideas. They already believe that there is nothing after physical death.

"for the former things are passed away." That means they are gone, gone everywhere, gone forever. If those things existed anywhere then the scripture would be lying.

2 Cor 5:17 is clearly about saved people, not everyone.

Tears, death, sorrow, crying and pain will be Annihilated and shall never again exist.

Only for believers, that means saved people.

But, go ahead and explain how being annihilated is something to fear or avoid. iow, where is the pain, or suffering, or whatever you think needs to be avoided.

Is it such a stretch that the unsaved wicked people will also be Annihilated?

Well, it's totally unbiblical. But answer this, please. If unbelievers will cease to exist, just what is Jesus saving us FROM? That the unsaved won't be saved from.

Scripture over and over promises that they shall be Annihilated. Believe what scripture says and reject false doctrines that teach otherwise.

Then what did Jesus mean when He told the thief that he would be with Jesus that day in Paradise?

Why would Jesus make up a parable that cannot exist in reality if your theories were true? I'm referring to Luke 16.

You are merely trivializing something which is far more fearful than you realize. Being killed in a fire and then never existing anymore is not a minor thing.

OK, facing a fire is scary. But so what? That will end quickly. No one lasts in a cauldron very long. Certainly not minutes. More like seconds. After that, remember, NO MORE SUFFERING at all. For ever.

So, tell me again what is so fearful of ceasing to exist.

It will be terrifying for the unsaved to know God is destroying them forever.

How will that matter, since once annihilated, they will NO LONG SUFFER. That means NO emotional, physical, financial, pain or suffering of any kind. Exactly what the Atheists want. Way to go.

That is an everlasting punishment.

Nonsense. Once they no longer exist, there is nothing. No feeling, no pain, no suffering.

Why can't you guys get a grip on this?





Annihilation. The saved get eternal life, the unsaved get eternal annihilation.[/QUOTE]

 

[posthuman]

That's the punishment! Do you think the same about the death penalty? That's not a punishment? The second death is permanent with no chance of resurrection.

if i have no cognizance of it, joke's on you, wasting your time thinking you're punishing me - doesn't bother me at all.

does beating a dead horse bother the horse?

 

[Laura798]

how is it punishment if they don't even exist?
sounds like rest. it's what those who hate God and deny God believe in: it's what they seek. to become nothing. to simply disappear. to escape judgement; to not be judged at all and have no consequence to suffer. the pagans call it nirvana. nothingness. eternal non-being. annihilation. atheistic monist physicalism.

but what does scripture say? there is no rest for the wicked.

the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; ​

they have no rest day and night, ​

those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.​

(Revelation 14:11)​

it is evident that 'they' exist or 'they' could not be said to have no rest. unless you call God a liar? the deceiver?
the physical body returns to dust, and the nonphysical returns to God who gave it.
dust isn't nothing. sleep isn't ceasing to exist. death isn't annihilation and life is spiritual, not carnal.

I think there should be a rule: no 'shrooms' or whiskey shots when posting on CC. Are you kidding? Have you not read any of our other posts--what is the worst sentence that can be pronounced in our courts? DEATH. What does Romans 6:23 (and a host of other verses) say the punishment for sin is, "The wages of sin is DEATH..." That's so simple even a first grader could understand it. Why complicate things?

Oh and you don't think missing out on ETERNAL life with God in paradise is a punishment? Get real.

PS please find a five LITERAL verses that say eternal conscious torment is the punishment for sin--LITERAL, mind you. All die hard ECT'ers use the same 2 -3 verses in Revelation--over and over...and over again. They are figurative NOT literal.

 

[kleronomos]

1. How is no longer existing, meaning no more negative emotions, no more pain, etc a punishment?

By the time they have been judged to the lake of fire, they will have witnessed whatever they had done in the flesh and the pain it cause more than recompensed by GOD to the persons they did these things to and most likely have truly felt them the first times themselves. From the day that they quit breathing in their flesh body, the exact opposite has become true in their lives. They have lost all power and watched it go to those they used to lord it over. As their demise draws near and all the world sees their nakedness and then they are consumed/destroyed/perished. What would it take for you to feel 'satisfied' JUSTICE had been given? ALL ETERNITY in pain and sorrow? If so I count myself very blessed because I already feel very sorry for those who have known the Lord and turned their backs on Him and would have destroyed my life if it weren't for Christ and I already have received the rewards in the way of knowledge to where I see they are just pathetic sad souls no matter what they think.

No longer existing is punishment and you having no remembrance of them either does nothing but bring you peace. Having them blotted out means they WERE NEVER IN YOUR LIFE TO BEGIN WITH. Ceasing to exist means NEVER HAVING BEEN. I hope this helps a little. God isn't looking to force people into eternal life because they are scared of eternal pain for not loving Him. God is looking for our own free will spirit to CHOOSE HIM to love Him because we just can't help it He is just tooo wonderful to behold. WHO wants to be around a bunch of souls who don't feel that same way. ETERNAL life dwelling with GOD is the biggest, bestest, most valuable thing possible to ever lose and there is never another chance.


A little thing. No. People may say things they've convinced themselves are true, but ever so seldom are. Can you imagine a recompense FROM GOD? Nice.

 

[posthuman]

The second death is permanent with no chance of resurrection.

so their every tear is wiped away?
they have no more fear, no more sorrow, no more worry?
no more death? no more pain? no regret? no lamenting?
only tranquil nothingness forever and ever?

and that's punishment?

do you know what reward people attempting suicide are typically hoping for?

 

[Laura798]

Unbelievable! Those things are promised to not exist in eternity ONLY for the saved. Never the unsaved. I thought believers read their Bible and knew these things.


Please read the whole context to understand who this refers to. It sure ain't the unsaved.


In the weird theory of ceasing to exist, the reality is that NONE of these things will exist.

Atheists will just LOVE your ideas. They already believe that there is nothing after physical death.


2 Cor 5:17 is clearly about saved people, not everyone.


Only for believers, that means saved people.

But, go ahead and explain how being annihilated is something to fear or avoid. iow, where is the pain, or suffering, or whatever you think needs to be avoided.


Well, it's totally unbiblical. But answer this, please. If unbelievers will cease to exist, just what is Jesus saving us FROM? That the unsaved won't be saved from.


Then what did Jesus mean when He told the thief that he would be with Jesus that day in Paradise?

Why would Jesus make up a parable that cannot exist in reality if your theories were true? I'm referring to Luke 16.


OK, facing a fire is scary. But so what? That will end quickly. No one lasts in a cauldron very long. Certainly not minutes. More like seconds. After that, remember, NO MORE SUFFERING at all. For ever.

So, tell me again what is so fearful of ceasing to exist.


How will that matter, since once annihilated, they will NO LONG SUFFER. That means NO emotional, physical, financial, pain or suffering of any kind. Exactly what the Atheists want. Way to go.


Nonsense. Once they no longer exist, there is nothing. No feeling, no pain, no suffering.

Why can't you guys get a grip on this?





Annihilation. The saved get eternal life, the unsaved get eternal annihilation.

[/QUOTE]


YOU are adding to the text "only saved people will have " no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

But that is not what it says -- it says there will be NO MORE death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. If it meant only for some, it would have said that. It will be as it was when God first created the WHOLE UNIVERSE--Perfection--NO MORE means what it says--stop adding to it.

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. "--Revelations 22:18

 

[FreeGrace2]

Garbage? Really--I'm quoting scripture and you call it garbage? Very Christ like of you.

Don't be so childish. It's YOUR failed understanding of what Scripture says that is garbage. ie; your doctrine. Not the Bible.

Please explain Jesus saying to Mary "I have NOT yet ascended to the Father." and He did not do so until 40 DAYS LATER.

First explain how this is relevant to the discussion of soul sleep and annihilation?

Don't

you understand that when a person dies there is ZERO passage of time from the dead person's perspective?

I do exactly. Why don't YOU understand that if a person ceases to exist, then there is NO MORE SUFFERING for them?

It was 'Today' for the thief--Christ was making a proclamation--He was not saying they would be together in paradise on that day as evidence by Christ saying HIMSELF that he had not yet ascended.

Yet, Jesus told us about a beggar who died and was described in Abraham's bosom, also called Paradise, the exact same place as Jesus told the thief. Yet you can't explain any of this, other than to cover your errors by calling it a parable.

How many more times do I need to say this? We must always test scripture against scripture--scripture never contradicts itself.

Exactly ! And it's been pointed out how many times your views contradict the Bible.

"The gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing."

Doesn't mean annihilation.

 

[Laura798]

Don't be so childish. It's YOUR failed understanding of what Scripture says that is garbage. ie; your doctrine. Not the Bible.


First explain how this is relevant to the discussion of soul sleep and annihilation?


I do exactly. Why don't YOU understand that if a person ceases to exist, then there is NO MORE SUFFERING for them?


Yet, Jesus told us about a beggar who died and was described in Abraham's bosom, also called Paradise, the exact same place as Jesus told the thief. Yet you can't explain any of this, other than to cover your errors by calling it a parable.


Exactly ! And it's been pointed out how many times your views contradict the Bible.


Doesn't mean annihilation.

I said, "Please explain Jesus saying to Mary "I have NOT yet ascended to the Father." and He did not do so until 40 DAYS LATER."

You said, "First explain how this is relevant to the discussion of soul sleep and annihilation?"

What on earth are you talking about? I was responding to you saying the thief was with Christ in paradise the day they both died and I was showing you with this verse that was IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[posthuman]

"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. "--Revelations 22:18

finish the quotation:

and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city,
and the things which are written in this book.
(Revelation 22:19)
​

do not think you can take Revelation 20:10 out of the Bible.

They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever


​

 

[FreeGrace2]

But I thought you believed believers go straight to heaven when they die?

Of course they do. Where did you get the weird idea that I think otherwise? Maybe you're so hung up on Jesus' account of the beggar. No believer went to heaven after they died. All souls went to Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek) at death. Saved people went to Paradise, also called Abraham's Bosom, and the unsaved went to Torments. There is a 3rd compartment called "Tartarus" which is where the imprisoned fallen angels are held (Gen 6) until the GWT judgment.

If so that would mean 1. They are immortal 2. They got in without their wedding clothes/immortal bodies 3. They didn't have to be escorted by Jesus 4. They got in the door without facing the Judgment. Hmmm.. why would Jesus bother going to the trouble to 'gather the elect' or judge the world if both believers and unbelievers go directly to there respective destinations?

I don't deal with "if so's". I deal with "what IS".

Love your Christ like descriptions of me and pm, btw:

'made up stuff' , 'garbage', 'tripe', 'your embarrassing yourself'....

Sorry you just can't see it. But it's the truth. btw, none of the above is a "description of you". It IS a description of your views. Know the difference.

I find it curious that those who are intelligent can recognize intelligence in others, whereas those who are less intelligent actually think they are smarter than everyone else in the room. Also, the less intelligent always without exception use ad hominem attacks.

Right. I sure am surprised that those who hold your views can't see the obvious contradiction. The answer to what Jesus saves us FROM is "there is NO MORE SUFFERING". lol. That's exactly YOUR view of how unbelievers end up when they cease to exist. They will have NO MORE SUFFERING. In fact, no more anything. How is that a punishment?

To believe in ECT is to ignore a mountain of literal verses that say death/destruction are the punishment for sin.

Nonsense. Your view has been refuted over and over.

There's no reasoning with you--you truly believe your false doctrine is the truth--there's no point in discussing it further. I feel like a university student trying to explain calculus to a first grader....

I am absolutely convinced that your doctrine is exactly what the devil wants everyone to believe. That there will be NO CONSEQUENCES when they die. Just sleeping and then a brief bit in fire, and then.....nothing at all.

PS

Scripture is not 'made up stuff.'

It sure isn't. But what you post sure is. Not the verses, but what you seem to think they teach.

 

[FreeGrace2]

posthuman said:
how is it punishment if they don't even exist?

That's the punishment! Do you think the same about the death penalty?

This just proves that you guys just don't get it.

You equate physical death with eternal death. If not existing is a punishment, what is being experienced all the while one doesn't exist? Can you explain that?

If one doesn't exist, they don't feel, they don't think, they don't act. iow, there is NO MORE SUFFERING.

And you guys call that a punishment? Are you serious?

That's not a punishment? The second death is permanent with no chance of resurrection.

If one ceases to exist, this means nothing. Because they will be nothing.

Nothing to feel, to think, to act. NO MORE SUFFERING.

Sure. Some punishment.

 

[DavidTree]

I said, "Please explain Jesus saying to Mary "I have NOT yet ascended to the Father." and He did not do so until 40 DAYS LATER."

You said, "First explain how this is relevant to the discussion of soul sleep and annihilation?"

What on earth are you talking about? I was responding to you saying the thief was with Christ in paradise the day they both died and I was showing you with this verse that was IMPOSSIBLE.

How do you know what Jesus said was True is, according to you, "impossible"?

The LORD says: "Nothing shall be impossible with God."

How do you know that the LORD did not take the dying man, saved by faith, next to Him, into Paradise that day?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Are you kidding? Have you not read any of our other posts--what is the worst sentence that can be pronounced in our courts? DEATH.

Are YOU kidding??!! Don't you know WHY a death sentence in a court is so bad? Most people (the unsaved) fear death because they don't know what's beyond death. That's what they fear. Satan would LOVE to remove that fear, and you guys are doing one bang up job of helping out Satan here. If your theories were true, then there would be NO FEAR of death at all, since there will be only sleeping, in which there will be NO SUFFERING. And then a brief court appearance at the GWT, then thrown into the lake of fire, and then....nothingness. Nothing to fear, nothing to worry about, nothing to hurt. iow, NO MORE SUFFERING.

And you guys think that is some kind of punishment? Well the joke is on you.

Oh and you don't think missing out on ETERNAL life with God in paradise is a punishment? Get real.

Yes, why don't YOU get real.

Tell me how an unbeliever who will cease to exist care about what they have missed out on. They won't even be thinking. To cease to exist means to cease having a brain, with which to think.

Maybe you didn't even think of that.

PS please find a five LITERAL verses that say eternal conscious torment is the punishment for sin--LITERAL, mind you. All die hard ECT'ers use the same 2 -3 verses in Revelation--over and over...and over again. They are figurative NOT literal.

You've already seen enough verses that refute your weird ideas.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
1. How is no longer existing, meaning no more negative emotions, no more pain, etc a punishment?

By the time they have been judged to the lake of fire, they will have witnessed whatever they had done in the flesh and the pain it cause more than recompensed by GOD to the persons they did these things to and most likely have truly felt them the first times themselves.

Frankly, this seems a bit theatrical. "by the time", as if they will be suffering for some time. No, remember that they will be sleeping after physical death until resurrected for the GWT. I don't imagine that will take long. And how long do you suppose these unbelievers will exist in the lake of fire? 5 seconds? 5 minutes? 5 hours? 5 days? 5 weeks? 5 months? 5 years? etc, etc, etc.

But, so what. However long it takes to cease to exist cannot be an extended experience. Or the Bible would have made that clear.

And the Bible DOES make clear how long the 2 beasts of Rev 13 and Satan will suffer in the lake of fire, where all the unbelievers will also be cast.

Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

iow, no end to the torment. Nothing about ceasing to exist.

Rev 20:15 - Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

So, there you have it, straight from the Bible. The lake of fire will be an experience of torment "day and night, forever and ever".

I suppose your comeback will be "ah, that's just a figure of speech", or "well, that's just a parable, and it's not literal".

From the day that they quit breathing in their flesh body, the exact opposite has become true in their lives. They have lost all power and watched it go to those they used to lord it over.

OK, explain how they can "watch it go" when they are supposedly sleeping peacefully.

As their demise draws near and all the world sees their nakedness and then they are consumed/destroyed/perished.

Huh? "all the world sees their nakedness"? Where in the world do you get all thise made up stuff?

No longer existing is punishment and you having no remembrance of them either does nothing but bring you peace.

You seem to conveniently forget that to no longer exist means to NO LONGER SUFFERING.

How does one suffer if they don't exist? That's the problem with your weird doctrine. It doesn't add up.

Having them blotted out means they WERE NEVER IN YOUR LIFE TO BEGIN WITH. Ceasing to exist means NEVER HAVING BEEN. I hope this helps a little. God isn't looking to force people into eternal life because they are scared of eternal pain for not loving Him. God is looking for our own free will spirit to CHOOSE HIM to love Him because we just can't help it He is just tooo wonderful to behold. WHO wants to be around a bunch of souls who don't feel that same way. ETERNAL life dwelling with GOD is the biggest, bestest, most valuable thing possible to ever lose and there is never another chance.

Those who supposedly cease to exist won't give a damn about any of this. They won't be there to know or experience or anything.

 

[FreeGrace2]

YOU are adding to the text "only saved people will have " no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[/QUOTE]
Why don't you read the Bible for a change and finally understand to whom 2 Cor 5:17 is describing?

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! Got it yet?

OK, now for the death and tears:

Rev 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And, here is the context for v.4-
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God

So, by the time we get to Rev 21, we have already read about the lake of fire, where all unbelievers will be cast. So Rev 21 applies ONLY to the SAVED, naturally.

But that is not what it says -- it says there will be NO MORE death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. If it meant only for some, it would have said that./QUOTE]

I am truly sorry for your seemingly inability to comprehend easy verses. Rev 21 applies only to those who have been SAVED from the lake of fire.

 

[ewq1938]

so their every tear is wiped away?
they have no more fear, no more sorrow, no more worry?
no more death? no more pain? no regret? no lamenting?
only tranquil nothingness forever and ever?

and that's punishment?

The punishment is death and complete destruction. Yes, that's punishment.

The fact that pain etc will not exist in the eternity proves your doctrine to be wrong.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said, "Please explain Jesus saying to Mary "I have NOT yet ascended to the Father." and He did not do so until 40 DAYS LATER."

You said, "First explain how this is relevant to the discussion of soul sleep and annihilation?"
you
What on earth are you talking about? I was responding to you saying the thief was with Christ in paradise the day they both died and I was showing you with this verse that was IMPOSSIBLE.

You never showed any such thing. What verse supports your supposed "impossible" claim?

You guys really mess up God's Word when you read it, if you read it. It seems you are rather unfamiliar with a lot of it.

I still don't see any relevance to your question about Mary and 40 days later. And I don't really care, since you seem unwilling to explain how it is relevant.

 

[ewq1938]

You equate physical death with eternal death. If not existing is a punishment, what is being experienced all the while one doesn't exist? Can you explain that?

They will have great fear facing a firery death then to never exist again.

If one doesn't exist, they don't feel, they don't think, they don't act. iow, there is NO MORE SUFFERING.

Bingo, now you understand this verse:

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.