Matthew 24

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2ndTimothyGroup

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#21
I personally test with scripture. Scripture should agree, it should never disagree and never contradict.

If you see a passage that appears to contradict. Its your interpretation causing the contradiction not the word.

And of course, this demands humility and an open mind, or even this will not help.
I think that I understand what you're saying. When I dropped the teachings of "men" and read the ENTIRE Bible in a timeline, chronological fashion (multiple times, now), I have walked away with an entirely new Understanding of God's Holy Word. I believe that I have been taught, by the Lord, how to make sense of his entire Book. This is not to say that I am a "master" of eschatology, for example. I am not. However, I am able to reconcile the core doctrine of His Word . . . Circumcision of the Heart. Without a firm grasp of what this Abrahamic Word is all about, the Bible will forever remain elusive.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
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#22
So how are we to determine if we have been deceived? What are the tests?

One thing I know is this: Anyone with a closed mind; a person who does not show interest in the possibility that they may be wrong . . . that person has been deceived. Avoid them like Covid-19.

True Christians will listen to all arguments; all ideas. And, they will do so without throwing around scorn and ridicule like cheap candy.
True Christians may also be certain that we have the correct information (ie.: know the truth). By your assertion, Christians are deceived.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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#23
True Christians may also be certain that we have the correct information (ie.: know the truth). By your assertion, Christians are deceived.
No. Christians are not deceived. "christians" are deceived. Do you see the difference?
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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#24
True Christians may also be certain that we have the correct information (ie.: know the truth). By your assertion, Christians are deceived.
Is there anything else you'd like to ram down my throat?
 

Dino246

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#25
No. Christians are not deceived. "christians" are deceived. Do you see the difference?
The difference is capitalization and punctuation.

I'm certain you intend to imply more, but you haven't stated it, so I'll state it for you: someone who has not put their faith in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ is not a Christian. Openness to explore controversial ideas is not among the criteria.

Christians may be open- or closed-minded about many things, without being deceived. Christians may also be deceived about many things. Emotionally mature Christians are more likely to tolerate discussion of controversial ideas without getting emotionally involved. Unfortunately, many people mistake openness to discussion for assent or agreement.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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#26
The difference is capitalization and punctuation.

I'm certain you intend to imply more, but you haven't stated it, so I'll state it for you: someone who has not put their faith in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ is not a Christian. Openness to explore controversial ideas is not among the criteria.

Christians may be open- or closed-minded about many things, without being deceived. Christians may also be deceived about many things. Emotionally mature Christians are more likely to tolerate discussion of controversial ideas without getting emotionally involved. Unfortunately, many people mistake openness to discussion for assent or agreement.
Your mind is essentially slammed shut to virtually all things that I offer. Therefore, I do not intend to dive into "deeper" conversations as it has become clear, based upon repetitive and failing conversation, that it will be a waste of time.
 

Dino246

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#27
Your mind is essentially slammed shut to virtually all things that I offer. Therefore, I do not intend to dive into "deeper" conversations as it has become clear, based upon repetitive and failing conversation, that it will be a waste of time.
You are free to do as you please. Whether your choice is warranted is another matter. ;)
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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#28
You are free to do as you please. Whether your choice is warranted is another matter. ;)
Or, you could employ kindness. Or, perhaps set aside being manipulative and controlling?
 

Pilgrimshope

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#29
here’s another

“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Pilgrimshope

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#30
Hmmm... God tells us in the end the world will be deceived and fall into godless ways leading up to the antichrist. We see that being fulfilled in the liberal deep state.

But concerning us, He says we will be deceived by false prophets coming in His Name to draw us away from His truth as well.

Seeing the deception of the deep state is easy.

Seeing the deception we will fall under might be a bit, well, more deceptive.
yes it’s a false Christianity offered to Christians in his name. Claiming “this is the real truth of Jesus Christ and salvation “

the truth is Jesus already explained and offered salvstion and any other way offered is a lie meant to get us away from the truth. Just like Eden

the deception is going to be within the church like your saying deceptions using a scripture here or there to nullify the rest .

unbelievers are already lost Thy e enemy is after those who would be saved if they believe the truth .

it’s a distortion of Christ and the gospel claiming to be the truth that is so poisonous for Christians if we would stick to believing the gospel Jesus gave us everything else becomes exposed for what it is
 

Diakonos

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#32
Outstanding. So, in your opinion and as you understand the Bible, what would it mean if:

After claiming that we are Saved by Christ, our lives dive deeper into depravity (we become worse than before we were "saved") such as frequenting strip clubs, getting drunk wasted while there, being emotionally abusive to our wives and children . . . porn addiction etc . . .

Would you say that this is a failed test? Would this mean that a person remains deceived, that they are actually [not] saved?
To preface, evidence and proof are not the same.

Deception is eradicated through the process of sanctification. I.e., as the believer continues in the cleansing work of the Spirit, they escape deception ("The truth shall make you free").

But aren't there Christians who chose to not continue in sanctification? Yes.
Is that evidence that they might have not been genuinely converted? Yes.
Is that proof that they weren't converted? No.

Only God knows their spiritual state.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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#33
You have been anything other than kind since I have joined this forum. You have shown virtually no level of care, concern, or love for anyone (as far as I have seen) and according to what I have written above, I have no desire to interact with you. Your consistent need to create chaos and disharmony is unending and I simply don't want to see it nor be a part of it.

Blocklisted
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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Feb 20, 2021
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#34
To preface, evidence and proof are not the same.

Deception is eradicated through the process of sanctification. I.e., as the believer continues in the cleansing work of the Spirit, they escape deception ("The truth shall make you free").

But aren't there Christians who chose to not continue in sanctification? Yes.
Is that evidence that they might have not been genuinely converted? Yes.
Is that proof that they weren't converted? No.

Only God knows their spiritual state.
I see. So how then, does a person pass or fail the test of 1 John 4:1? Scripture seems clear that the behaviors that emanate from us determines our spiritual father, or whether we are a good tree or bad tree.

Matthew 7:16-19 NIV - "By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

For example: If we harass people on Christian forums . . . this is a determining factor of what kind of a Christian we are. - No one filled with the Love of God intentionally causes discord, but works to create peace. No one who has been Known by the Spirit intentionally works to harm the psychology of another.
 

Diakonos

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#35
I see. So how then, does a person pass or fail the test of 1 John 4:1?
John 4:1-6 is not a fruit inspection test.
No one filled with the Love of God intentionally causes discord, but works to create peace. No one who has been Known by the Spirit intentionally works to harm the psychology of another.
Sure they can.
the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.” (Romans 7:18)

I can explain it to you, but I cannot understand it for you.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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#36
John 4:1-6 is not a fruit inspection test.
Ok. I'm listening. How do you determine that the 1 Johh 4:1 passage/s do not include the behaviors and Mind of Christ that the Spirit creates? That's perplexing.

Sure they can.
the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.” (Romans 7:18)

I can explain it to you, but I cannot understand it for you.
Ok . . . so Paul is [not] talking about his current life at the time that he penned those words. If he was describing his current life and mindset, how could he write about being Transformed? Does Romans 7:17-20 sound like a Transformed life? Of course not. Paul is referencing his life [before] his Sinful Nature was cut away by Christ. Not knowing that the Sinful Nature is to be cut away in order to be a True Christian is not your fault, for virtually no "pastor" preaches nor teaches it (none that I have found, yet).

Paul actually references his Sinful Nature as "Old" . . . but few desire to recognize this. Therefore, when we get to verse 18 we automatically think and believe that the Sinful Nature isn't old at all . . . but is in fact, still with us.

Romans 7:5 NLT - "When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death."

"When" and "were" are referencing times past. "Old" . . . well, I shouldn't even have to address the word. It's all crystal clear.

So Paul was still infected with his "Old" Sinful Nature? The "Old Man" never left? Impossible, for Paul later wrote in Colossians 2:11,13:

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - 11 "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature." ... 13 "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

So I agree with you; it will be impossible for you to get me to understand what you believe because it is clearly untrue.

What do you think of the passages that have been offered above?
 

Diakonos

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#37
Ok. I'm listening. How do you determine that the 1 Johh 4:1 passage/s do not include the behaviors and Mind of Christ that the Spirit creates?
Well, you're the one who used it as a supporting verse for your response to my comment on fruit-bearing, so you should be the one explaining why the passage is about fruit-bearing, rather than me explaining why it is not.
First, I was clearly talking about how we inspect ourselves, not others. 1 John 4:1-6 deals with an outward identification.
Second, John is telling us how to distinguish the spirit of error from the spirit of truth (vs 6). Truth and error in this context refer to spoken content (vs 3-5), not fruitfulness.

Although a correlation often exists between deception and bad fruit, a passage (such as 1 john 4:1-6) may talk about one aspect and not the other.


Ok . . . so Paul is [not] talking about his current life at the time that he penned those words. If he was describing his current life and mindset, how could he write about being Transformed? Does Romans 7:17-20 sound like a Transformed life? Of course not. Paul is referencing his life [before] his Sinful Nature was cut away by Christ. Not knowing that the Sinful Nature is to be cut away in order to be a True Christian is not your fault, for virtually no "pastor" preaches nor teaches it (none that I have found, yet).

Paul actually references his Sinful Nature as "Old" . . . but few desire to recognize this. Therefore, when we get to verse 18 we automatically think and believe that the Sinful Nature isn't old at all . . . but is in fact, still with us.

Romans 7:5 NLT - "When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death."

"When" and "were" are referencing times past. "Old" . . . well, I shouldn't even have to address the word. It's all crystal clear.

So Paul was still infected with his "Old" Sinful Nature? The "Old Man" never left? Impossible, for Paul later wrote in Colossians 2:11,13:

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - 11 "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature." ... 13 "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

So I agree with you; it will be impossible for you to get me to understand what you believe because it is clearly untrue.

What do you think of the passages that have been offered above?
In case you don't already know, Chapters 6-8 concerns sanctification. In Chapter 7 there is a context break between vs 13 and 14.
1. The believer and the Law (7:1–6) Paul uses past tense verbs
2. The Law and sin (7:7–13)
3. The believer and sin (7:14–25) Paul uses present tense verbs

Vs 14-25 Describes Paul's current experience.
"I am flesh"
"I am doing the very thing I hate"
"I agree with the Law"

Some may argue this was before rather than after justification. But the Holy Spirit anticipates these conjectures, so He inspires contextual details like...
“Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand, I myself with my mind
am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.” (Romans 7:25)​

It's a simultaneous phenomenon.

Chapter 8 will go on to practically deal with this tension believers face in the quest for holy living through the power of the Spirit.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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#38
Well, you're the one who used it as a supporting verse for your response to my comment on fruit-bearing, so you should be the one explaining why the passage is about fruit-bearing, rather than me explaining why it is not.
First, I was clearly talking about how we inspect ourselves, not others. 1 John 4:1-6 deals with an outward identification.
Second, John is telling us how to distinguish the spirit of error from the spirit of truth (vs 6). Truth and error in this context refer to spoken content (vs 3-5), not fruitfulness.

Although a correlation often exists between deception and bad fruit, a passage (such as 1 john 4:1-6) may talk about one aspect and not the other.




In case you don't already know, Chapters 6-8 concerns sanctification. In Chapter 7 there is a context break between vs 13 and 14.
1. The believer and the Law (7:1–6) Paul uses past tense verbs
2. The Law and sin (7:7–13)
3. The believer and sin (7:14–25) Paul uses present tense verbs

Vs 14-25 Describes Paul's current experience.
"I am flesh"
"I am doing the very thing I hate"
"I agree with the Law"

Some may argue this was before rather than after justification. But the Holy Spirit anticipates these conjectures, so He inspires contextual details like...
“Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand, I myself with my mind
am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.” (Romans 7:25)​

It's a simultaneous phenomenon.

Chapter 8 will go on to practically deal with this tension believers face in the quest for holy living through the power of the Spirit.
Well enough. Because of so much confusion between the two of us, I think I'll bow out of this conversation.