Galatians Discussion

[Grandpa]

Firstly, Phil 3:6

Did Saul really believe he perfectly obeyed the whole of the moral law without one slip/was blameless concerning it? Think about it. I like the way the NIV 1984 edition puts it:

As for legalistic righteousness, faultless

OK, so you have made clear your view Paul is speaking of his life as a Christian in verses7-11. You have nothing in those verses to back that up, only your opinions.

So, in your opinion, Saul the Pharisee did not know the ten commandments, for he is speaking of when the law came to him. Neither can Saul have known lust if you are correct, though Paul told Timothy he was the chief of sinners. It isn’t credible I’m afraid. So your belief is, only when Saul became Paul did he become aware of the commandment: Thou shalt not covet. And Paul the Christian then found himself a far worse sinner than Saul the Pharisee had been, for as a Christian he became full of all manner of concupiscence. Well if that is what you wish to believe you are entitled to that view, I could never agree with you. People under the old covenant knew sin. David said no one was righteous before God. The notion God made a covenant but people did not know the ten commandments, or what that entailed is fanciful in my view. And, other Pharisees were of course full of everything unclean on the inside(note everything) Jesus said so. Do you think they really did not know of lust either? Many today will preach virtual sinless perfection for christians, but does that mean they are not aware, or conscious of sin in their own lives. If that were so, how could they have been born again? I would not condemn them all

That is correct.

Paul the Pharisee did NOT know the ten commandments in the SPIRITUAL WAY. Paul the Pharisee knew the ten commandments in the carnal way, the way in which he could keep them.

He didn't find out that the law condemned him until he was MADE Spiritual by Christ and was able to discern that the 10 commandments have a spiritual function.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

This is a revelation of the Christian. One that many, sadly, still have not had.

 

[Onesimus63]

Yes.

AFTER he found out he couldn't follow it perfectly and that trying to follow it actually CAUSED more sin.

You need to start discerning what is written, not just quote the letter of what is written:

If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

Paul the christian was writing the above. In your view, Paul the christian was stating Saul the Pharisee was blameless concerning the entire law? You really believe Paul was stating that? Can you not see how ridiculous that would be? Blameless only concefrning the legalistic law, as should be very obvious indeed

 

[Onesimus63]

That is correct.

Paul the Pharisee did NOT know the ten commandments in the SPIRITUAL WAY. Paul the Pharisee knew the ten commandments in the carnal way, the way in which he could keep them.

He didn't find out that the law condemned him until he was MADE Spiritual by Christ and was able to discern that the 10 commandments have a spiritual function.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

This is a revelation of the Christian. One that many, sadly, still have not had.

Nonsense, nearly as bad as saying Paul the christian claimed Saul the Pharisee was blameless concerning the entire law. Saul would have fully understood what the commandment thou shalt not covet meant, and he would have known he did not fully obey it, quite the opposite

 

[Grandpa]

You believe if we are afraid of something we simply won’t do it.

I know this is probably pointless, however:

The penalty of sin brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin

If I asked a professional poker player to have a game of poker with me for a ten pence stake, he might oblige, but there wouldn’t be any excitement in the game for him, would there? The stake is too small. If the following week he was playing a game in Las Vegas and there was a million dollars on the table, however, he’d be greatly excited then, wouldn’t he? The stakes would have his heart pounding I am sure. It is not possible to do anything that involves high stakes without great excitement surging through the individual’s body, is it?

Many take up sports that have an element of risk or danger in them so they may experience the thrill in doing so. Some jump off bridges from great heights, with ropes securely fastened to their bodies at one end, and to the bridge at the other, with enough slack to send them hurtling hundreds of feet toward the ground below. When the slack is exhausted, they come to a juddering halt, and dangle in the air for a short time, exhilarated by the thrill of the event. So it is fair to say the higher the risk involved in an activity, the greater the excitement it causes in the individual. The higher the stake a person plays for, the more the adrenalin flows.

There is one thing that dwarfs all others when it comes to battling for high stakes and taking the greatest risks, however, and that is when you believe eternal life is at stake. After all, what higher stake could a person play for than eternal life, and what activity could carry more risk than one that could send you to hell? People of faith know more than anyone of excitement being stirred in them, for they are playing for the highest stakes of all − and it isn’t a game! So what does the excitement focus on during this highest of all stakes battle? It must focus on what decides the outcome of it, for therein lies the risk and danger.

If you live under the law as Saul did, the penalty for sin is in place. Your sin, therefore can condemn you to hell. You are in the highest stakes battle of your life, and, the greatest risk you can take is to break the Ten Commandments. You would be extremely agitated at the thought of sin, if(if) you took your religion extremely seriously, maybe even fanatically. . You would be animated, overwrought, disturbed, nervous, and panic stricken at the thought of sin. Now the more these emotions concerning sin overcome you, the more sin will overwhelm you, and the more your ability to resist sin will weaken. Why is this? Because those emotions bring you to an excited state. They are all bar panic-stricken definitions of the word excite. And the definition of panic-stricken is “frenzy,” and the definition of frenzy is “wild excitement.” The emotions that result from your fear of the penalty for sin bring you to a very excited (or aroused) state where sin is concerned. If you live under the law, therefore, your fear of breaking it (sin) results in sinful passions being aroused in you. That is why Paul tells us the law arouses sinful passions in us if we live under it(Rom7:5).



Now which of the ten commandments are most likely to bring that result? Thou shalt not murder? Not really, not many of us have homicidal tendancies that would have to be played out. Thou shalt not steal? No, not that either. Thou shalt not take the Lord the God’s name in vain(literally) I don’t think so. Not even the physical act of adultery would do it. Discernment is called for(but not much in my view)

There are no "stakes" involved with the 10 commandments. There is no gambling there.

Excitement comes from the possibility of winning. Excitement from possibly winning doesn't cause a person to lose, every single time.

The 10 commandments cause sin to be aroused EVERY TIME, with no possibility of winning anything.

Simply because it takes the focus of your thoughts and places them on sin. Every time.



There may be an added "thrill" from breaking the rules, but not from breaking the 10 commandments when you are TRYING not to.

 

[Onesimus63]

There are no "stakes" involved with the 10 commandments. There is no gambling there.

Excitement comes from the possibility of winning. Excitement from possibly winning doesn't cause a person to lose, every single time.

The 10 commandments cause sin to be aroused EVERY TIME, with no possibility of winning anything.

Simply because it takes the focus of your thoughts and places them on sin. Every time.



There may be an added "thrill" from breaking the rules, but not from breaking the 10 commandments when you are TRYING not to.

It wasn't a complete waste of time, I knew you would reject it, but some others may not

 

[Grandpa]

You need to start discerning what is written, not just quote the letter of what is written:

If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

Paul the christian was writing the above. In your view, Paul the christian was stating Saul the Pharisee was blameless concerning the entire law? You really believe Paul was stating that? Can you not see how ridiculous that would be? Blameless only concefrning the legalistic law, as should be very obvious indeed

Paul the Christian was stating the THOUGHTS of Saul the Pharisee. Saul the Pharisee THOUGHT he was righteous based on the law.

Just like all Pharisees. They think they are righteous based on the law.

 

[Onesimus63]

Paul the Christian was stating the THOUGHTS of Saul the Pharisee. Saul the Pharisee THOUGHT he was righteous based on the law.

Just like all Pharisees. They think they are righteous based on the law.

No he was not, another misunderstanding of scripture. He is plainly looking back at his life as a Pharisee. A Pharisee blamelessly kept the legalistic law, they cleaned the outside of the cup. You really need to understand scripture, not just quote it

 

[Grandpa]

Nonsense, nearly as bad as saying Paul the christian claimed Saul the Pharisee was blameless concerning the entire law. Saul would have fully understood what the commandment thou shalt not covet meant, and he would have known he did not fully obey it, quite the opposite

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


When would it have been POSSIBLE for Paul to know Romans 7:14? Only when he became Christian. He COULDN'T know this when he was a pharisee.

He couldn't know any of Romans 7 as a Pharisee.

What he knew as a Pharisee was Philippians 3:5-6

 

[Grandpa]

No he was not, another misunderstanding of scripture. He is plainly looking back at his life as a Pharisee. A Pharisee blamelessly kept the legalistic law, they cleaned the outside of the cup. You really need to understand scripture, not just quote it

That's what I just said.

 

[Onesimus63]

That's what I just said.

He was looking back at his life as a Pharisee and making statements concerning that life. He persecuted the church and was blameless concerning the law, the legalistic law, NOT the whole law

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes.

AFTER he found out he couldn't follow it perfectly and that trying to follow it actually CAUSED more sin.

Yes; attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts, if you are seeking to be justified by the keeping of them, will only produce in you "all manner of concupiscence" (Romans 7:8)

However, if you attempt obedience from the venue of walking not after the flesh but after the Spirit, you can succeed.

 

[Onesimus63]

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


When would it have been POSSIBLE for Paul to know Romans 7:14? Only when he became Christian. He COULDN'T know this when he was a pharisee.

He couldn't know any of Romans 7 as a Pharisee.

What he knew as a Pharisee was Philippians 3:5-6

There you go again, claiming Paul the christian stated Saul the Pharisee was blameless concerning the entire law.

You really do need to grasp the obvious. Saul the Pharisee was not writing about Saul the pharisee in rom ch 7. Paul the christian was writing about Saul the Pharisee in rom ch7. Paul was not writing of his life as a christian, but a pharisee. He was looking back at his life before he became a christian. And looking back he could see exactly what had happened previously. And that in no way negates Saul the pharisee understanding what the law required concerning coveting. He would not have understood as a Pharisee the reasons for it all as Paul understood it

 

[justbyfaith]

Paul clearly coveted as a Pharisee (Romans 7:7-8).

Concerning the outward requirements, however, I believe that he was blameless as a Pharisee and says so in Philippians 3:1-6.

 

[justbyfaith]

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

This is a revelation of the Christian. One that many, sadly, still have not had.

Oh the joy that there would be in heaven if everyone resigned themselves to the fact that they are sinners and gave up in the battle of fighting against it!

 

[Onesimus63]

Paul clearly coveted as a Pharisee (Romans 7:7-8).

Concerning the outward requirements, however, I believe that he was blameless as a Pharisee and says so in Philippians 3:1-6.

wow, we agree again, twice in one day is toooo much

 

[Pilgrimshope]

yeah he’s explaining the law of sin inside of mankind and explaining the impact of baptism and remission of sins and following the spirit in Christ .

let’s pretend you have a question In Your mind “ what’s baptism really mean how does it actually work ?

let’s pretend we could learn The answer to that question thoroughly in the scriptures of the New Testament. see if we could learn about bekng baptized for remission of sins and how that works effectually in our lives ? How does it apply to the law ? To sin ? What part does it have in our salvation ? Let’s pretend this is the start of our answer

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.

How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:1-4, 6-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

seems like we’re hearing about baptism into christs death for some reason how it’s recognized as our death by baptism .He’s still talking about the effects of baptism here , we died ?

“Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? ….Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;

(Note he’s gone back to where he started last chapter expanding the confront applicably)

that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. ( the word of the kingdom )

For when we were in the flesh, ( before baptism and conversion to belief of the gospel ) the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:1, 4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he’s still talking about the concept of dying with Christ in baptism and How it applies to the believer regarding the law which defines sin , removing the laws and therefore sins dominion over the person it seems like setting them free to believe the gospel and repent and be saved

Paul now goes deep inside of mankind to show us why this all matters to what he’s been saying and what he’s not saying using his self as an example of being under law and then of being baptized in Christ and alive unto the spirit

“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. ( see Romans chapter 3v 19-20)

But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:7-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s why we have to come out from it , be delivered from it , because it is the very thing that identifies and imputed every single transgression we’ve ever done or do keeping us bound by sin to death. Always trying to serve God outwardly by the flesh and never looking inside where the law of sin is the issue Jesus came to heal by imparting the truth in us

“Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

If then I do that which I would not, ( Thou shalt not ) I consent unto the law that it is good.

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:13-14, 16-17, 19-25‬ ‭

That’s Paul explaining why we have to die to the flesh and live by the spirit and how it begins with baptism and believing the gospel.

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free

from the law of sin and death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But we have to come out from Moses doctrine and step into christs word of light to ever see it

“Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:12-15‬ ‭

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:27-28, 31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The law of faith we have to hear from Jesus the creator and lawgiver to hear it

“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭51:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

All I know is that Jesus is the one to go to to know about salvation he’s our judge not Moses so we have to hear and believe what Jesus said to be saved

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

to be “righteous “ one would have to walk In What Christ taught

 

[justbyfaith]

words of Jesus:

Jhn 8:31, Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Jhn 8:32, And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jhn 8:33, They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jhn 8:34, Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jhn 8:35, And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Jhn 8:36, If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

words of the Spirit of Jesus:

1Jo 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[Blik]

"sinless perfection" is a misnomer that has been applied to the doctrine of entire sanctification as a straw man that is easily toppled by 1 John 1:8.

However, the doctrine of entire sanctification does not purport that a man can be made "sinless" so that "he can say that he has no sin" and the truth be in him;

Rather, entire sanctification teaches that the element of sin is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14).

For, we are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT))....

And, therefore, it is possible to walk consistently, not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4), for an extended period of time; even for the rest of your life (Luke 1:74-75).

We have been made sinless, that is what Christianity is all about. Not of our own doing, but through what Christ did. Then we are to live in that sinless state through being repentant of sin, if we are truly repentant of all sin and forgiven by Christ, we are counted as sinless.

 

[Onesimus63]

We have been made sinless, that is what Christianity is all about. Not of our own doing, but through what Christ did. Then we are to live in that sinless state through being repentant of sin, if we are truly repentant of all sin and forgiven by Christ, we are counted as sinless.

But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Heb9:26

 

[Onesimus63]

And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Heb10:10-14