Who Justifieth the Ungodly

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brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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OIC1965 said:
Can you give me ONE citation of a Bible teacher from anytime in history that interpreted Paul to mean justification before birth in Romans 4:5 or anywhere else.

No John Gill did not teach justification before birth.

(Note. Keep in mind that Election is not the same as justification. Not synonymous).

Basically you’re saying that people are saved before they’re born.
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I gave you scripture. Read the thread. The problem is you deny Justification solely by the blood of Christ. If a person is Justified by the blood of Christ, that means Christ died for that individuals sins before they were born. You dont believe Christ died for a persons individual sins prior to them being born ?
 
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OIC1965

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brightfame52 said:
01c1965



Yes he did, in fact he taught a person was justified from eternity.
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John Gill was wrong. Justification is defined as to render, regard, declare as righteous, which is the same thing as having your faith COUNTED as RIGhTEOUSNESS!

Righteousness is dikaiosune, which is the substantive (noun) form of dikaioo, which is Greek for render or declare righteous, ( translated in KJV as (counted for) righteousness.

Literally. But to Him who believes on the God that declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is counted (logizomai) for Righteousness.
 
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OIC1965

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brightfame52 said:
01c1965



Yes he did, in fact he taught a person was justified from eternity.
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But to him who does not work but believes on Him who (dikaioo) declares as righteous the ungodly, his faith (the one believing) is counted (logizomai) (imputed) as righteousness. (Dikaiosune).

Dikaiosune (righteousness) is a substantive form of the verb dikaioo (declare righteous). God counts his faith as righteousness means JUSTIFIES. Therefore a man is justified by faith.
 
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OIC1965

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brightfame52 said:
01c1965



Yes he did, in fact he taught a person was justified from eternity.
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Galatians 2:16. …Even we have believed in Jesus Christ, THAT We might be justified by the faith of Christ….partial quote

The word “”that” is ina in Greek, and it is a ina (pronounced Gina) of PURPOSE. We have believed so that (for the purpose or result of) being justified by faith of Christ.

Even if you say faith of Christ means Christ’s faith, the ina of purpose is attached to believing. Ie we believe THAT we might be justified!!

Go with the Bible, not commentaries
 
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OIC1965

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Pronounced hina of purpose, not Gina. I hate when my phone wrongly corrects me. ;)
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

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We are justified on the grounds of Christ by faith. It didn't happen before or from eternity. It is always centered in Christ on those who would believe in him. If we are justified prior to Christ and his gospel then that is not the true justification.
 
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OIC1965

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#448
brightfame52 said:
01c1965



Yes he did, in fact he taught a person was justified from eternity.
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Galatians 2:16.

a. What does the verse say that Paul and his hearers did?

b. What was the stated purpose or result for doing this?

If you honestly and without bias answer these two questions, it will clear things up.
 
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brightfame52

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Many of the opponents of the Truth of Justification before God before Faith or believing, they appeal to such scriptures that indicate that one is Justified by Faith or through Faith similar to Rom 3:30

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

or Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

However as those scriptures are True, those who believe are Justified by Faith, yet no matter how true that may be, it does not contradict nor deny Justification before God, based on the merits of Christ alone, before Faith or before believing. They are mere different aspects of the same Justification to be considered and believed; The Fact of the matter is this, before one can be Justified by Faith which is Justification being declared as True to us by the Gospel, Justification before God had to have existed before that declaration can be given to God given Faith.

Yes, believers are Justified by Faith Rom 5:1 since their Justification has been revealed to them and they now embrace it consciously, but their receiving it consciously is not the Act of God Justifying them before His Mind.

If a King legally acquits a prisoner on Tuesday, and the prisoner receives the good news of the acquittal that following Friday, his receiving it had no bearing on what occurred on Tuesday, he just received the good news of it in his own mind and heart later on that Friday ! Upon his receiving that good news, he becomes acquitted by Faith, he believes in or rests in the message of the good news brought to him by the Kings messenger !
 
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brightfame52

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OIC1965 said:
John Gill was wrong. Justification is defined as to render, regard, declare as righteous, which is the same thing as having your faith COUNTED as RIGhTEOUSNESS!

Righteousness is dikaiosune, which is the substantive (noun) form of dikaioo, which is Greek for render or declare righteous, ( translated in KJV as (counted for) righteousness.

Literally. But to Him who believes on the God that declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is counted (logizomai) for Righteousness.
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Actually John Gill is right, you wrong and deny Justification soley by the blood of Christ.
 
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brightfame52

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OIC1965 said:
Galatians 2:16. …Even we have believed in Jesus Christ, THAT We might be justified by the faith of Christ….partial quote

The word “”that” is ina in Greek, and it is a ina (pronounced Gina) of PURPOSE. We have believed so that (for the purpose or result of) being justified by faith of Christ.

Even if you say faith of Christ means Christ’s faith, the ina of purpose is attached to believing. Ie we believe THAT we might be justified!!

Go with the Bible, not commentaries
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You deny the bible, for the elect being Justified by the Blood of Christ is bible Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Thats what Faith views, having been justified by Blood !
 
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OIC1965

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brightfame52 said:
You deny the bible, for the elect being Justified by the Blood of Christ is bible Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Thats what Faith views, having been justified by Blood !
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Galatians 2:16. (Partial Quote) Even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that ('ina of purpose) we might be justified by the faith of Chris

We have believed that we might be justified. Clear as a cloudless day.

a. What does the verse say that Paul and his hearers did?

b. What was the stated purpose or result for doing this?

If you honestly and without bias answer these two questions, it will clear things up
 
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OIC1965

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#453
brightfame52 said:
You deny the bible, for the elect being Justified by the Blood of Christ is bible Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Thats what Faith views, having been justified by Blood !
Click to expand...
1. Even we have believed that we might be justified by faith of Christ.

a. WE- subject- who performs the action.
b. believed- Verb-
c. Christ Jesus object of faith (direct object)
d. Justification based on Christ and His finished work.

2. that (hina of purpose),

2443 hína (a subordinating conjunction) – for the purpose that (in order that), looking to the aim (intended result) of the verbal idea. 2443 /hína ("for the purpose that") is "the semantically marked (dramatic) way of expressing purpose in Greek (as compared for example to the plain infinitive)" (G. Archer). Strong's Greek: 2443. ἵνα (hina) -- in order that, that, so that (biblehub.com)

3. we might be (subjunctive voice indicates PURPOSE, REASON, or RESULT of the verb believed, I think here it is referring to the RESULT of belief, ie Justification through the faith of Christ.)

Subjunctive Mood in Purpose Clauses (ntgreek.org)

justified by the faith of Chris. (the result of faith. )
 
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brightfame52

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OIC1965 said:
Galatians 2:16. (Partial Quote) Even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that ('ina of purpose) we might be justified by the faith of Chris

We have believed that we might be justified. Clear as a cloudless day.

a. What does the verse say that Paul and his hearers did?

b. What was the stated purpose or result for doing this?

If you honestly and without bias answer these two questions, it will clear things up
Click to expand...
I have no problem with Gal 2:16, however you deny Justification before God based solely on the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Thats what God given Faith believes.
 
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brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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OIC1965 said:
1. Even we have believed that we might be justified by faith of Christ.

a. WE- subject- who performs the action.
b. believed- Verb-
c. Christ Jesus object of faith (direct object)
d. Justification based on Christ and His finished work.

2. that (hina of purpose),

2443 hína (a subordinating conjunction) – for the purpose that (in order that), looking to the aim (intended result) of the verbal idea. 2443 /hína ("for the purpose that") is "the semantically marked (dramatic) way of expressing purpose in Greek (as compared for example to the plain infinitive)" (G. Archer). Strong's Greek: 2443. ἵνα (hina) -- in order that, that, so that (biblehub.com)

3. we might be (subjunctive voice indicates PURPOSE, REASON, or RESULT of the verb believed, I think here it is referring to the RESULT of belief, ie Justification through the faith of Christ.)

Subjunctive Mood in Purpose Clauses (ntgreek.org)

justified by the faith of Chris. (the result of faith. )
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You still deny Justification before God based on the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Thats what God given Faith believes.
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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brightfame52 said:
You still deny Justification before God based on the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Thats what God given Faith believes.
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In this case, we are justified by Christ's blood meaning from the cross and not from eternity.
 
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OIC1965

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Sep 19, 2020
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#457
brightfame52 said:
You still deny Justification before God based on the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Thats what God given Faith believes.
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Number one. Galatians 2:16 says Paul believed so that HE MIGHT BE justified

Number two. Romans 5;9 says nothing about justification before birth.

Number three. For about the tenth time, I believe that justification is based on the blood of Christ.

Think of it this way. Today I was praying for a brothers ministry. I prayed that God would bring great increase THROUGH the ministry. Now I did not pray that the ministry would bring increase to the kingdom, but that GOD would give great increase THROUGH the ministry.

God is the efficient cause. The ministry is the instrumental means.

The blood of Christ is the efficient cause of justification. Faith is the instrument GOD uses (not that faith merits or earns, but is a means about bringing about a state of justification). in justification. Faith is not a work, but a gift of God.
 
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OIC1965

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brightfame52 said:
I have no problem with Gal 2:16, however you deny Justification before God based solely on the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Thats what God given Faith believes.
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False dichotomy. We are not discussing the basis or grounds of justification, we are discussing the when of justification.

You are not even trying to speak to what I say, but are using a “red herring”.
 
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OIC1965

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fredoheaven said:
In this case, we are justified by Christ's blood meaning from the cross and not from eternity.
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If we are justified before we are born, might as well say that we were justified from eternity, seeing Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation…
 
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OIC1965

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brightfame52 said:
You still deny Justification before God based on the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Thats what God given Faith believes.
Click to expand...
brightfame52 said:
You still deny Justification before God based on the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Thats what God given Faith believes.
Click to expand...
What does “we believe that we might be justified by the faith of Christ” mean?

What did Paul say that he and his readers did in Gal 2:16?

What was the result of their belief in Gal 2:16?

I think this is the third time I asked you
 
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