Doctrine of Unconditional Election

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#2,481
Jul 13, 2021
3,692
573
113
#2,481
fredoheaven said:
The truth is in Jesus, that is exactly we pinpointing, Christ the truth and what he says, we must believe in or on but you don't believe that.
Click to expand...
Do you believe that Christ is the Saviour or that we are?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#2,482
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
#2,482
rogerg said:
Actually, it is not "hearing the word of God", it is "hearing BY the word of God". Nevertheless, what is significant is not that it is our faith saves, instead, it is Christ's faith alone that saves.

[Mat 13:15-16 KJV]
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Click to expand...
I would agree that it's the faith of Christ that justifies the believer. Christ's work on the cross justifies. He is the Just and the justifier of those that believe in him.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#2,483
Jul 13, 2021
3,692
573
113
#2,483
John146 said:
I would agree that it's the faith of Christ that justifies the believer. Christ's work on the cross justifies. He is the Just and the justifier of those that believe in him.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Click to expand...
Did you happen to notice the "by the faith of Jesus Christ" part? That is, the rest of the verse is dependent upon His faith not ours?
It says nothing about having to believe first, does it?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#2,485
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
#2,485
rogerg said:
Did you happen to notice the "by the faith of Jesus Christ" part? That is, the rest of the verse is dependent upon His faith not ours?
It says nothing about having to believe first, does it?
Click to expand...
Absolutely! We are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. Our part is believing. I believe, then Christ’s faith justifies me. No work on my part.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#2,486
Jul 13, 2021
3,692
573
113
#2,486
fredoheaven said:
The truth is in Jesus, that is exactly we pinpointing, Christ the truth and what he says, we must believe in or on but you don't believe that.
Click to expand...
You are saying that we are saved by our own faith? How can that be? Where is righteousness in our faith - nothing that we may do is righteous? Righteousness accompanies faith- do you consider that any faith we produce to be righteous? The below is speaking about the righteousness of Christ's faith, not ours.

[Rom 4:13 KJV] 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#2,487
Jul 13, 2021
3,692
573
113
#2,487
John146 said:
Absolutely! We are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. Our part is believing. I believe, then Christ’s faith justifies me. No work on my part.
Click to expand...
No, it is saying that it is by the faith of Jesus Christ that we believe. "A" brings about "B". Christ's faith brings about our faith. Please, read it again
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

Senior Member
#2,488
Nov 17, 2015
4,110
960
113
#2,488
rogerg said:
You are saying that we are saved by our own faith? How can that be? Where is righteousness in our faith - nothing that we may do is righteous? Righteousness accompanies faith- do you consider that any faith we produce to be righteous? The below is speaking about the righteousness of Christ's faith, not ours.

[Rom 4:13 KJV] 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Click to expand...
Christ,s faith resulted to his death, burial and resurrection. That brings to us the gospel. His works is indeed justifies those who will believe in him. Yor passage pertaining to Abraham simply believed God and it was accounted unto him God's righteouness. Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

Senior Member
#2,489
Nov 17, 2015
4,110
960
113
#2,489
rogerg said:
Do you believe that Christ is the Saviour or that we are?
Click to expand...
It takes trusting, relying on the Saviour to be saved. Jesus is of course the Saviour of this world but only those that will response to him in faith will be saved. Those that will reject him would not be saved.
 
fredoheaven

fredoheaven

Senior Member
#2,490
Nov 17, 2015
4,110
960
113
#2,490
rogerg said:
Do you believe that Christ is the Saviour or that we are?
Click to expand...
And what do you think, when I believe on Christ is my Saviour, I save myself? When I trusted, rely on Him for salvation, did i save myself?
 
F

FreeGrace2

Banned
#2,492
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
#2,492
rogerg said:
Do you believe that Christ is the Saviour or that we are?
fredoheaven said:
And what do you think, when I believe on Christ is my Saviour, I save myself? When I trusted, rely on Him for salvation, did i save myself?
Click to expand...
The tragic thing is that calvinists really DO believe that those who believe that believing comes from the heart is in fact, "saving themselves".

Until they get that nonsense out of their skulls, they are impossible to reason with.

They are convinced, and all without any evidence from the Bible, that God elects who will believe, though they never phrase it that way, but that is exactly the bottom line in their election doctrine.

God's choice for who to save is eloquently stated by Paul in 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

For God to be "pleased to save those who believe", shows that this is God's CHOICE.

But sadly, calvinists will read this verse and swear they see God electing who will believe. I guess they just can't help it.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#2,493
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
#2,493
rogerg said:
You are saying that we are saved by our own faith? How can that be? Where is righteousness in our faith - nothing that we may do is righteous? Righteousness accompanies faith- do you consider that any faith we produce to be righteous? The below is speaking about the righteousness of Christ's faith, not ours.

[Rom 4:13 KJV] 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Click to expand...
“We have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.”

Believing obviously comes first. After believing, we are justified by the faith of Christ.
 
P

peldom10

Banned
#2,494
May 22, 2020
2,382
358
83
#2,494
rogerg said:
Not sure if I already replied to this post, so I'll do so now.

The "through" I think you're referring to is "through faith". However, as I said in a prior post, it is Christ's faith, not our faith. Christ's faithfulness is what brings salvation to the elect. The singular was to show that God (alone) is the gift, but from the gift of God, comes faith and salvation.
Click to expand...

Aren't you saying........from God comes grace (forgiveness) and salvation? Faith is our choice through ...free will.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#2,496
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#2,496
John146 said:
This is not a very good argument. Stir up belief? Make God save them?

Faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. In order for one to have biblical faith, one must first hear the word of God. That's bible.
Click to expand...
Who is the Word of God?

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#2,497
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#2,497
FreeGrace2 said:
Please define what YOU mean by "fruit". Then I can answer.


Ditto.


Of course not. Do you understand what Jesus was saying in v.5?


No, it's not. You have confused the cart with the horse.


Where do you get that one has to 'learn to have faith'?

Do you know how to abide in Christ?


Please answer my questions so I can properly answer them.
Click to expand...
You already answered your own questions. Now you just need to follow the conversation a little better.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#2,498
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#2,498
FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said:
The 2 verses simply describe what happens in regeneration. Believers ARE given a 'new heart'.

There is nothing in these 2 verses that say or show that this new heart is given SO THAT THE RECIPIENT CAN/WILL BELIEVE.

So you are presuming what the Bible doesn't teach. That's calvinism.

Then prove your claim with clear Scripture.


OK, we're still talking about regeneration.

So, show in these verses that regeneration precedes salvation.


Right. Regeneration and salvation occur at the same time. They are synonymous. Can't have one without the other.

And Eph 2:5 and 8 prove that both regeneration and faith are THROUGH FAITH. That means faith precedes them both.
Click to expand...
Faith is a fruit of the spirit.

Which, we already established only saved people bear fruit. Unsaved people do not bear fruit. They are not able.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#2,499
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#2,499
fredoheaven said:
Umm, you try to dodged the word "through" being the instrumentality What is the gift of God? I discuss this and provided other scripture to prove my point, what you have, none. Grace is unmerited favour of God. "By" indicates the means or instrumentality in which God used, hence the source is God.
Click to expand...
You could place the word 'through' anywhere you want. In order to contradict "not of yourselves" it would have to be explicitly stated. In that verse. Or the next.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#2,500
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#2,500
fredoheaven said:
Umm, I see some dishonesty, you don't need to put words in others mouth. What is said is about possessing salvation. John 15 is the fruit of salvation, not the root of salvation. If you are trying the verse as a means of having salvation, then you are saying you are doing your own salvation. You're working on it. Please clarify your positiion. Thanks
Click to expand...
I see the problem. You guys don't know what Salvation even is.

This is Salvation;
Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.


Salvation is not a formula that you concoct and perform. Salvation is the Gift of God from beginning to end. You have to come to Christ to receive it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.