One taken,one left. The rapture.
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DavidTree said:
2 Thess ch2
Day of the Lord and His Second Coming are synonymous.
At the end of the Tribulation. It's clear in Rev 20, since the single resurrection of all believers will include the Trip martyrs who will be resurrected and reign with Christ.
2 Thess ch2
Day of the Lord and His Second Coming are synonymous.
At the end of the Tribulation. It's clear in Rev 20, since the single resurrection of all believers will include the Trip martyrs who will be resurrected and reign with Christ.
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Correct. It is more than 1 day. It includes the entire Millennial Reign by the King of kings, and on into the eternal state.
Correct. There are 7 wrath trumpets as the last group of God's wrath to be completed. When all of that is over, Jesus comes back and will heralded by the last trumpet. Which everyone on earth will hear, for sure.
Correct. There are 7 wrath trumpets as the last group of God's wrath to be completed. When all of that is over, Jesus comes back and will heralded by the last trumpet. Which everyone on earth will hear, for sure.
In fact, there are no verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. And that is what most pretribbers think of when they say "rapture".
We know from 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15:52,53 that the living believers when Jesus returns will be gathered up to meet the Lord in the air, along with all the saints already dead, and be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
But there will be no trip to heaven at the resurrection. How that got started I do not know. But the Bible says nothing about that.
We know from 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15:52,53 that the living believers when Jesus returns will be gathered up to meet the Lord in the air, along with all the saints already dead, and be changed in the twinkling of an eye.
But there will be no trip to heaven at the resurrection. How that got started I do not know. But the Bible says nothing about that.
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As you know, "the Day and Hour" is not revealed to us in the Scriptures.
But we do know, and have been commanded by the LORD this: Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Rev 20:18-19
And you do understand that = "that Day will not come until the man of sin is revealed" = 2 Thess ch2
And you do understand that = "the Trumpet will sound and the dead in Christ will rise FIRST" = 1 Thess & 1 Cor ch15
And you do understand that our Deliverance and Transformation into His Likeness occurs at His Second Coming = Heb 9:28 & 1 John ch2 -ch3.
But we do know, and have been commanded by the LORD this: Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Rev 20:18-19
And you do understand that = "that Day will not come until the man of sin is revealed" = 2 Thess ch2
And you do understand that = "the Trumpet will sound and the dead in Christ will rise FIRST" = 1 Thess & 1 Cor ch15
And you do understand that our Deliverance and Transformation into His Likeness occurs at His Second Coming = Heb 9:28 & 1 John ch2 -ch3.
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Both of you have the word of God against you.
I have posted MULTIPLE times the 144k in heaven.
Then you have to just assume that the wedding and feast in heaven declared in rev 19 has no glorified saints present.
You just HAVE TO ASSUME THAT.
Part of what we can clearly see in the resurrected life of Jesus is him EATING FISH AND BREAD
WITH HIS HUMAN BODY POST RESURRECTION.
The marriage supper in heaven AS DECLARED BY JESUS at the last supper has HIS GLORIFIED SAINTS in heaven ,and drinking wine. IN HEAVEN.
Psssssst you need glorified bodies for that
But hey, I know those dynamics destroy your deal.
I find it interesting the penalty for reframing the book of revelation is ignored by postribs, because look at all of you coming undone, by the CLEAR FACT ,that the 144k are in heaven DURING THE TRIB..
Thus making 1thes 4 into a posrtib rapture , a lie.
You have the saints resurrected after TWO Gatherings TO HEAVEN in rev 14. !!!!!
WILL NOT WORK, NO MATTER HOW CUNNING YOU GET
But nothing stops any of you.
What reckless disregard for the word of God.
Even when shown, you guys get on that nothing burger train of,
" show me where it says white bird written on the white bird.
See it can not be a white bird"
But the comedy is that all that is coming from the same people that HAVE NO VERSE SAYING THE RAPTURE IS POSTRIB.
Instead the LITERALLY MAKE BELIEVE the saints are scurrying from cave to cave with a devil man chasing them FOR SEVEN YEARS . They go on to make believe there is a rapture ( post flood, where there is zero evidence in the bible) and these raptured 10 or 15 Saints do a u turn in mid air and pointlessly return to a war, killing people.
What reckless disregard in changing Gods word, making a mockery of the business in heaven declared by Jesus at the last supper, and vividly depicted in rev 19.
They know none of the pretrib rapture verses and when brought forward, they mock it, all the while not having A SINGLE VERSE depicting any such postrib rapture
I have posted MULTIPLE times the 144k in heaven.
Then you have to just assume that the wedding and feast in heaven declared in rev 19 has no glorified saints present.
You just HAVE TO ASSUME THAT.
Part of what we can clearly see in the resurrected life of Jesus is him EATING FISH AND BREAD
WITH HIS HUMAN BODY POST RESURRECTION.
The marriage supper in heaven AS DECLARED BY JESUS at the last supper has HIS GLORIFIED SAINTS in heaven ,and drinking wine. IN HEAVEN.
Psssssst you need glorified bodies for that
But hey, I know those dynamics destroy your deal.
I find it interesting the penalty for reframing the book of revelation is ignored by postribs, because look at all of you coming undone, by the CLEAR FACT ,that the 144k are in heaven DURING THE TRIB..
Thus making 1thes 4 into a posrtib rapture , a lie.
You have the saints resurrected after TWO Gatherings TO HEAVEN in rev 14. !!!!!
WILL NOT WORK, NO MATTER HOW CUNNING YOU GET
But nothing stops any of you.
What reckless disregard for the word of God.
Even when shown, you guys get on that nothing burger train of,
" show me where it says white bird written on the white bird.
See it can not be a white bird"
But the comedy is that all that is coming from the same people that HAVE NO VERSE SAYING THE RAPTURE IS POSTRIB.
Instead the LITERALLY MAKE BELIEVE the saints are scurrying from cave to cave with a devil man chasing them FOR SEVEN YEARS . They go on to make believe there is a rapture ( post flood, where there is zero evidence in the bible) and these raptured 10 or 15 Saints do a u turn in mid air and pointlessly return to a war, killing people.
What reckless disregard in changing Gods word, making a mockery of the business in heaven declared by Jesus at the last supper, and vividly depicted in rev 19.
They know none of the pretrib rapture verses and when brought forward, they mock it, all the while not having A SINGLE VERSE depicting any such postrib rapture
144k = keep reading, praying and studying the Word as the 144k is symbolic of..................................discover Truth
This is what you need to fear and honor = "I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book."
This is what you need to fear and honor = "I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book."
You couldn't be more wrong. You are the one without any verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. So it is YOUR claim that is against the Word of God.
Nothing you post shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. And you simply keep misunderstanding that ch 14 isn't chronological. Nor can you prove that it is.
Here's a thought for you to chew on. Common view of a pretrib rapture with trip to heaven means that the wedding supper occurs at that time, the beginning of the trib. So why would John place this wedding JUST BEFORE Jesus and company leaves heaven for the Second Advent? Every thought about that?
It is the pretrib view that REQUIRES much assumption.
What destroys your presumed pretrib trip to heaven is:
1. NO verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven
2. there is only ONE resurrection of the saved, so it can't be pretrib since Rev 20:5 plainly says the trib martyrs are in the FIRST resurrection. There ain't no "pre-first" resurrections of the saved.
The total lack of Scriptural evidence for that glorified trip to heaven hasn't stopped any of you.
That pretty well sums up the pretrib rapture theory.
Nothing you post shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. And you simply keep misunderstanding that ch 14 isn't chronological. Nor can you prove that it is.
Here's a thought for you to chew on. Common view of a pretrib rapture with trip to heaven means that the wedding supper occurs at that time, the beginning of the trib. So why would John place this wedding JUST BEFORE Jesus and company leaves heaven for the Second Advent? Every thought about that?
It is the pretrib view that REQUIRES much assumption.
What destroys your presumed pretrib trip to heaven is:
1. NO verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven
2. there is only ONE resurrection of the saved, so it can't be pretrib since Rev 20:5 plainly says the trib martyrs are in the FIRST resurrection. There ain't no "pre-first" resurrections of the saved.
The total lack of Scriptural evidence for that glorified trip to heaven hasn't stopped any of you.
That pretty well sums up the pretrib rapture theory.
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It isn't MY method.
He sent HIS ANGEL = didn't leave right hand of God = obeying command given
YOUR METHOD
He came HIMSELF = DID leave right hand of God = disobeying command
MY rendering = is for TRUTH of what is written
YOUR rendering = is for A DOCTRINE OF MAN (a doctrine that is proven to be FALSE at every turn because it goes against what is written by changing 'what is written' to HATH GOD SAID? and/or when God didn't say (BECAUSE IT ISN'T WRITTEN) adding your own words and conclusions and putting those forth.
WHAT IS WRITTEN
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
WHAT DAY SHALL NOT COME? THE DAY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST GATHERS US TO HIM
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
WHEN IS THAT WICKED REVEALED? WHEN CHRIST RETURNS, AT THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
WHEN DOES CHRIST RETURN AND WHEN ARE WE GATHERED TO HIM? AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
EVERYTHING THAT DOES NOT FOLLOW THIS, IS A LIE. No matter HOW many verses ANYONE tries to find to bolster it with this that and the other thing to try and make it legit, EVEN those BACKUPS ARE LIES.
KEPT from the hour DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH 'PRE TRIB RAPTURE'.
DELIVERED from DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH 'PRE TRIB RAPTURE'
WHAT IS WRITTEN IS WHERE TRUTH IS FOUND. TRUTH WOULD NEVER REQUIRE JESUS TO DISOBEY GODS COMMAND.
PRE TRI DEMANDS THAT CHRIST DISOBEY GODS COMMAND HENCE THE SEARCHING HIGH AND LOW TO GET CHRIST TO THE EARTH BEFORE SATAN. BUT IT CAN ONLY BE DONE WITH LIES, AS THIS TRUTH CAN NOT BE CHANGED.
SOME WOULD EVEN GO SO FAR AS TO CHANGE (HATH GOD SAID? AND GOD DIDN'T SAY) THE MEANING OF 'THE FALLING AWAY' TO NOT ONLY A 'GATHERING' BUT ALSO a trip to heaven pre trib. WE CALL THAT APOSTASY, AND NOW, LIKEWISE, SO DO THEY LIKEWISE.
HE is the Lion and He is the Lamb and THE ONE DOES NOT NEGATE THE OTHER, WHERE AS PRE TRIB DOES.
THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE
He sent HIS ANGEL = didn't leave right hand of God = obeying command given
YOUR METHOD
He came HIMSELF = DID leave right hand of God = disobeying command
MY rendering = is for TRUTH of what is written
YOUR rendering = is for A DOCTRINE OF MAN (a doctrine that is proven to be FALSE at every turn because it goes against what is written by changing 'what is written' to HATH GOD SAID? and/or when God didn't say (BECAUSE IT ISN'T WRITTEN) adding your own words and conclusions and putting those forth.
WHAT IS WRITTEN
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
WHAT DAY SHALL NOT COME? THE DAY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST GATHERS US TO HIM
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
WHEN IS THAT WICKED REVEALED? WHEN CHRIST RETURNS, AT THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
WHEN DOES CHRIST RETURN AND WHEN ARE WE GATHERED TO HIM? AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
EVERYTHING THAT DOES NOT FOLLOW THIS, IS A LIE. No matter HOW many verses ANYONE tries to find to bolster it with this that and the other thing to try and make it legit, EVEN those BACKUPS ARE LIES.
KEPT from the hour DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH 'PRE TRIB RAPTURE'.
DELIVERED from DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH 'PRE TRIB RAPTURE'
WHAT IS WRITTEN IS WHERE TRUTH IS FOUND. TRUTH WOULD NEVER REQUIRE JESUS TO DISOBEY GODS COMMAND.
PRE TRI DEMANDS THAT CHRIST DISOBEY GODS COMMAND HENCE THE SEARCHING HIGH AND LOW TO GET CHRIST TO THE EARTH BEFORE SATAN. BUT IT CAN ONLY BE DONE WITH LIES, AS THIS TRUTH CAN NOT BE CHANGED.
SOME WOULD EVEN GO SO FAR AS TO CHANGE (HATH GOD SAID? AND GOD DIDN'T SAY) THE MEANING OF 'THE FALLING AWAY' TO NOT ONLY A 'GATHERING' BUT ALSO a trip to heaven pre trib. WE CALL THAT APOSTASY, AND NOW, LIKEWISE, SO DO THEY LIKEWISE.
HE is the Lion and He is the Lamb and THE ONE DOES NOT NEGATE THE OTHER, WHERE AS PRE TRIB DOES.
THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE
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