Alcohol - a world wide phenomena

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Christians should drink alcohol ...

  • Only once in a great long while, and only for special occasions chosen by God.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • In any amount, at any time, for God placed no restrictions on the drinking of alcohol.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ???, I don't know if or when God allows the drinking of alcohol, as I am still studying this out.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Can only drink alcohol when in God's service or ministry.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    29

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,770
13,408
113
R u sure?

Rev 14:12: "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."
Given the last five of your posts, it's clear to me that you do not have even the slightest understanding of the scientific method.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,575
13,011
113
What I want is to see this grapejuice press of the Lord in Revelation 14.
Well that is a metaphorical wine press and represents the wrath of God. Do you really want to see a river of blood which is 200 miles long and about 5 feet deep?
 
Feb 7, 2022
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I see no reason to waste my time with nonsense.
1Pet 2:9: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

Rev 1:6: "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

Rev 5:10: "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Prov 31:4: "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:"

Prov 31:5: "Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted."

Lev 10:9: "Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:"

Isa 66:21: "And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD."
 
Feb 7, 2022
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Given the last five of your posts, it's clear to me that you do not have even the slightest understanding of the scientific method.

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The Statement/Query is:

God is love (Jesus) or God is love? (Satan)

-------

Hypothesis is:

Since God is love, God is Just/Merciful never violating either one of those attributes (Jesus) or
If God is not really love, God cannot be both Just & Merciful at the same time without violating either one, for instance, if God administers Justice (as in Lucifer/satan's case), God was not merciful, and if God shews mercy to human sinners, allowing them back into heaven (though Lucifer/satan was cast out of heaven for sin), then God is not Just (satan)

-------

Testable? is:

The earth and mankind was made to be the "cruc-ible" which tested, before all the universe, the character of God (Rom. 3:4; Psa. 51:4), for two positions now existed among all the beings in Heaven, and there was not a third unbiased position. God created mankind, the third unbiased position, to demonstrate the character and glory of God. Yet, satan could not let well enough alone, knowing that his case was losing, tampered with the test, tampered with the evidence. Yet, this too, was to work against the wiles of the devil:

Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Jesus declares (through his servant John, by the Holy Ghost) that "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16), and so came to demonstrate that perfect holy character of His Father:

Jhn. 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jhn. 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn. 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn. 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jhn. 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The government and character of God were "tested" in Christ Jesus.

For He was tested in the wilderness (Mat. 4:1-11; Mar. 1:12-13; Luk. 4:1-13), and found blameless as the spotless "Lamb of God" (Jhn. 1:29,36), while the character of satan was being revealed, as a liar, deciver, who would misquote the words of God for his own end, for his own glory.

The entire life of Jesus, was one of 'testing', and proving, being the precious silver and gold, in the fullness of the fiery furnace:

Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Psa. 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Isa. 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

The most enduring tests, were Gethsemane and Calvary. The weight of sin crushing (as pestle) the earth (the Man, Christ Jesus) in the crucible (mortar), heated in the pure fiery wrath of God, poured out upon Him, and "tested" in all points:

Heb. 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

No sin could be found in Him, though tried unto the utmost. He was perfect. He indeed was love, as His Father.

Luk. 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Jhn. 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Psa. 85:10 Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

God is Just and Merciful, tested, at the Cross. The heart of God was there tested before all, that none may ever doubt again, and thus sin cannot arise a second time. God was selfless, in giving up of His Son for those who were His enemies, and the Son in giving up His life, and the Holy Ghost in seeking not His own.

The other position, was that of satan, and through the same events, he too was to be "crushed" (Gen. 3:15; Rom. 16:20), by God's Pestle, the "Rod out of the stem of Jesse" (Isa. 11:1), for he was proved at the Cross (at the Crucible of the universe) to be a murderer, a liar, a sinner (Jhn. 8:44), and his time and power were immediately limited (Rom. 5:6; Rev. 12:10).

In the beginning, was the 'serpent', but having only one head (Gen. 3:1), and in the time of Jesus, he had manifested 4 characters, 4 kingdoms (Daniel 2, 7, 11), but there was more to come, in the final heads, and so fully manifest his wicked government and chracter, as a counterfeit light of 7 branches, 7 heads (Rev. 17).

Yet, satan has another argument, against the case of God, and it is found in attacking the character of the body of Christ, for he says, how can the head be perfect, yet the body still sins? How can "the seed" be perfect, if it bear imperfect fruit in His own people? How can Christ Jesus be sinless, and yet his own people be found sinners? The answer is in the Gospel itself.

The gospel, was to be tested, yet further, even in us. For God will demonstrate before all the universe, that victory over sin, and overcoming in all things, is reality in Christ Jesus, who provided all strength, almighty power unto His people, and all the universe may know the power of God's love to save from guttermost to the uttermost, for He will produce such a people as keep His commandments as Jesus had (and so God, will show what Divinity, taking the hand of humanity, will do):

Heb. 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

For God will finish the work:

Rom. 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Rom. 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Rev. 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

For the final fiery testing of the saints is about to come (Revelation 14:6-12), and will come upon all the world who profess the name of Jesus (Rev. 3:10, 17:12).

As Christ Jesus was tested, so must we be tested. What Christ was given, so we are given.

As God was tested, so sin is tested.

-------
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,770
13,408
113
-------

The Statement/Query is:

God is love (Jesus) or God is love? (Satan)

-------

Hypothesis is:

Since God is love, God is Just/Merciful never violating either one of those attributes (Jesus) or
If God is not really love, God cannot be both Just & Merciful at the same time without violating either one, for instance, if God administers Justice (as in Lucifer/satan's case), God was not merciful, and if God shews mercy to human sinners, allowing them back into heaven (though Lucifer/satan was cast out of heaven for sin), then God is not Just (satan)

-------

Testable? is:

The earth and mankind was made to be the "cruc-ible" which tested, before all the universe, the character of God (Rom. 3:4; Psa. 51:4), for two positions now existed among all the beings in Heaven, and there was not a third unbiased position. God created mankind, the third unbiased position, to demonstrate the character and glory of God. Yet, satan could not let well enough alone, knowing that his case was losing, tampered with the test, tampered with the evidence. Yet, this too, was to work against the wiles of the devil:

Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Jesus declares (through his servant John, by the Holy Ghost) that "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16), and so came to demonstrate that perfect holy character of His Father:

Jhn. 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jhn. 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn. 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn. 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jhn. 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

The government and character of God were "tested" in Christ Jesus.

For He was tested in the wilderness (Mat. 4:1-11; Mar. 1:12-13; Luk. 4:1-13), and found blameless as the spotless "Lamb of God" (Jhn. 1:29,36), while the character of satan was being revealed, as a liar, deciver, who would misquote the words of God for his own end, for his own glory.

The entire life of Jesus, was one of 'testing', and proving, being the precious silver and gold, in the fullness of the fiery furnace:

Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Psa. 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Isa. 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

The most enduring tests, were Gethsemane and Calvary. The weight of sin crushing (as pestle) the earth (the Man, Christ Jesus) in the crucible (mortar), heated in the pure fiery wrath of God, poured out upon Him, and "tested" in all points:

Heb. 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

No sin could be found in Him, though tried unto the utmost. He was perfect. He indeed was love, as His Father.

Luk. 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Jhn. 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Psa. 85:10 Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

God is Just and Merciful, tested, at the Cross. The heart of God was there tested before all, that none may ever doubt again, and thus sin cannot arise a second time. God was selfless, in giving up of His Son for those who were His enemies, and the Son in giving up His life, and the Holy Ghost in seeking not His own.

The other position, was that of satan, and through the same events, he too was to be "crushed" (Gen. 3:15; Rom. 16:20), by God's Pestle, the "Rod out of the stem of Jesse" (Isa. 11:1), for he was proved at the Cross (at the Crucible of the universe) to be a murderer, a liar, a sinner (Jhn. 8:44), and his time and power were immediately limited (Rom. 5:6; Rev. 12:10).

In the beginning, was the 'serpent', but having only one head (Gen. 3:1), and in the time of Jesus, he had manifested 4 characters, 4 kingdoms (Daniel 2, 7, 11), but there was more to come, in the final heads, and so fully manifest his wicked government and chracter, as a counterfeit light of 7 branches, 7 heads (Rev. 17).

Yet, satan has another argument, against the case of God, and it is found in attacking the character of the body of Christ, for he says, how can the head be perfect, yet the body still sins? How can "the seed" be perfect, if it bear imperfect fruit in His own people? How can Christ Jesus be sinless, and yet his own people be found sinners? The answer is in the Gospel itself.

The gospel, was to be tested, yet further, even in us. For God will demonstrate before all the universe, that victory over sin, and overcoming in all things, is reality in Christ Jesus, who provided all strength, almighty power unto His people, and all the universe may know the power of God's love to save from guttermost to the uttermost, for He will produce such a people as keep His commandments as Jesus had (and so God, will show what Divinity, taking the hand of humanity, will do):

Heb. 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

For God will finish the work:

Rom. 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Rom. 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Rev. 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

For the final fiery testing of the saints is about to come (Revelation 14:6-12), and will come upon all the world who profess the name of Jesus (Rev. 3:10, 17:12).

As Christ Jesus was tested, so must we be tested. What Christ was given, so we are given.

As God was tested, so sin is tested.

-------
tl;dr
 
Feb 7, 2022
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Your declaration contradicts Scripture.

He makes grass grow for the cattle, and plants for people to cultivate— bringing forth food from the earth:
wine that gladdens human hearts, oil to make their faces shine, and bread that sustains their hearts.


Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do.

Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
Are you willing to study the context of each of those texts individually? There is something you need to see. They are each in favor of my position, not the one you currently stand upon. I am able to demonstrate this publicly with the context of each. How about you?
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,366
653
113
Are you willing to study the context of each of those texts individually? There is something you need to see. They are each in favor of my position, not the one you currently stand upon. I am able to demonstrate this publicly with the context of each. How about you?
I really do believe that part of your inability to see the plain meaning of some passages is demonstrated here in your reply to the verse Magenta posted.

The context is shared by each assertion in this verse. You must find the theme spoken of here with unity of verse, because they are placed side by side in Scripture. If you cut and paste and seperate them, you wil be able to slant their meaning and purpose. Thats call Eisegesis.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,209
26,265
113
Are you willing to study the context of each of those texts individually? There is something you need to see. They are each in favor of my position, not the one you currently stand upon. I am able to demonstrate this publicly with the context of each. How about you?
Any who claim that drinking alcohol in any form or amount is forbidden, is wrong.

If alcohol consumption were sinful in every instance, Jesus would not have miraculously
made over a hundred gallons of wine (oinos) for the wedding guests to drink.

Please do a word study of oinos. It means fermented wine, which is what Jesus made.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,701
113
Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

We are in good company. They beat Jesus over the head with the same stick.
 
Feb 7, 2022
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Please do a word study of oinos. It means fermented wine, which is what Jesus made.
I have. The word does not inherently mean alcoholic. Why do you refuse a brother who comes to you with such information from scripture? I provided a detailed and thorough study at the beginning of this thread, and yet you have not once shown me Christian love (charity) by prayerfully and thoughtfully considering what I have to share from God in His word on the matter. I even cover in detail the wedding feast of Cana.

I will link here for you the study (PowerPoint) again - https://archive.org/details/drink-up-these-are-not-drunken-as-ye-suppose

If you do not trust the file (though the word of a Christian was given you that it is clean, and the reputation of Internet Archive itself on the line), use the following free resource to scan the link and file - https://www.virustotal.com/gui/home/upload

Or you can use your own personal antivirus, malware checker. You can ask your IT staff to do it for you or a close friend if you want.
 
Feb 7, 2022
646
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Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

We are in good company. They beat Jesus over the head with the same stick.
Circular logic, based upon the unproven a priori that your position on the topic is correct. Your position is not correct as I have shown and am showing. Even your own definition of "winebibber" is personally subjective, and not even based in scripture. Your definition is self justifying, a rubber ruler, latex theologically. It will stretch or shrink to whatever definition you need it to be.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,209
26,265
113
I have. The word does not inherently mean alcoholic. Why do you refuse a brother who comes to you with such information from scripture? I provided a detailed and thorough study at the beginning of this thread, and yet you have not once shown me Christian love (charity) by prayerfully and thoughtfully considering what I have to share from God in His word on the matter. I even cover in detail the wedding feast of Cana.

I will link here for you the study (PowerPoint) again - https://archive.org/details/drink-up-these-are-not-drunken-as-ye-suppose

If you do not trust the file (though the word of a Christian was given you that it is clean, and the reputation of Internet Archive itself on the line), use the following free resource to scan the link and file - https://www.virustotal.com/gui/home/upload

Or you can use your own personal antivirus, malware checker. You can ask your IT staff to do it for you or a close friend if you want.
I provided a thorough representation from Scripture on the matter of alcohol and drinking in this thread also. In fact, I was the first to do so. I am looking at the PPP right now, but it is a massive file and not in a very accessible or cohesive format. Does it want to give the impression that wine does not mean alcoholic beverage? Clearly in many instances it does. Even Solomon's wise counsel was not to not drink at all, but not to join those who drink too much. That point has been made multiple times throughout this thread, and other threads like it. Any who want to say that alcohol is strictly forbidden and a sin at any time in any amount are quite simply wrong. I am sorry if you find my saying so lacking in Christian charity. I am prone to be succinct in my responses, and that is unlikely to change.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,337
16,313
113
69
Tennessee
I provided a thorough representation from Scripture on the matter of alcohol and drinking in this thread also. In fact, I was the first to do so. I am looking at the PPP right now, but it is a massive file and not in a very accessible or cohesive format. Does it want to give the impression that wine does not mean alcoholic beverage? Clearly in many instances it does. Even Solomon's wise counsel was not to not drink at all, but not to join those who drink too much. That point has been made multiple times throughout this thread, and other threads like it. Any who want to say that alcohol is strictly forbidden and a sin at any time in any amount are quite simply wrong. I am sorry if you find my saying so lacking in Christian charity. I am prone to be succinct in my responses, and that is unlikely to change.
All of your posts are superbly written, concise and on point.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
41,337
16,313
113
69
Tennessee
I have. The word does not inherently mean alcoholic. Why do you refuse a brother who comes to you with such information from scripture? I provided a detailed and thorough study at the beginning of this thread, and yet you have not once shown me Christian love (charity) by prayerfully and thoughtfully considering what I have to share from God in His word on the matter. I even cover in detail the wedding feast of Cana.

I will link here for you the study (PowerPoint) again - https://archive.org/details/drink-up-these-are-not-drunken-as-ye-suppose

If you do not trust the file (though the word of a Christian was given you that it is clean, and the reputation of Internet Archive itself on the line), use the following free resource to scan the link and file - https://www.virustotal.com/gui/home/upload

Or you can use your own personal antivirus, malware checker. You can ask your IT staff to do it for you or a close friend if you want.
Refusing a brother for what. Seems to me, the responses to your posts have been respectful. Hopefully, you will be prayerful and thoughtful in considering what others have to share as well.