Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Avery]

[1Co 2:14 KJV] 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

What are you actually trying to say here? Every human is that so called natural person until they turn to Christ in faith of what He has done on our behalf.

You are espousing a doctrine of forced salvation, yet, this is not to be found in scripture

Becoming saved/born again removes sin, the sinner doesn't/can't do so, nor do they cause it to happen - that was the whole purpose of Christ's offering -to remove sin from His chosen. Were it up to the sinner, it would then be their work which work can never save, and thereby would be supplanting the Saviour's role. Saul was chief of sinners right up to the point where he was saved. Likewise with us, we are remain sinners right up to the point of salvation.

Regarding backing off - I will if you will. Remember this?

"this is really going deep to try to refuse to see a truth. "

What I can agree with is the fact we are no longer considered sinners by God if we are saved through His Son. Since I do not see anyone saying we can remove our sin, it seems you are spinning your wheels and grasping at straws here. Is it so hard to simply stick to what is actually said instead of trying to assert others say things they have not actually said?

 

[Avery]

YOU CAN"T CONTRIBUTE TO SALVATION!!!!!

Once again, I understand why these discussions get so heated. When you make statements like this. It ANGERS PEOPLE who are not doing what you are claiming they are doing.

It is a strawman argument man, Its not facts.

What point is there in trying to discuss the Bible with someone who tries to assert his belief over everyone else by conducting himself in a way that suggests that the truth is not the most important thing?

I can see why this thread is 147 pages long. It is my opinion that people who cannot stick to the actual dialogue are either attempting to gaslight everyone or, they have some deep internal fear that they could be wrong. It seems he has a whole strawman army and not just one of those things.

 

[rogerg]

What I find interesting, is not your denials as much as the fact I have never seen a Calvinist use the scriptures you are using. The wicked mean simply that. The wicked. These verses have less than nothing to do with the doctrine you are trying to express. In fact, your particular doctrine is off track for Calvinism.

None of us have a choice in our birth so what is your point? We are all sinful humans until we accept Christ as our Savior.

Our accepting of Christ has nothing to do with becoming saved should we believe that is what caused it. Of course, everyone
who becomes saved accepts Christ but as a result of salvation, not its cause - salvation is solely a gift
The point is that all of us are of the wicked until we become saved- justified by Christ. It is from the judgment Adam and Eve brought to fruition unto mankind through the introduction the law of sin and death which we are all under from the womb.

Saul/Paul states he obtained mercy because he was in ignorance of Christ. With this verse, it seems you are trying to say that he had no choice in his salvation. There are many examples of those particularly chosen by God for service in scripture. This does not underscore your particular leanings. I have looked at both sides of the equation. I do not see anywhere that you are doing that.

The point was that Saul did not ask for mercy it was given to him because, and only because, God wanted it so, as it is with
everyone who becomes saved. I was trying to demonstrate that receiving His mercy is not a question of our choice, but God's.
When anyone obtains God's mercy, it means they have been saved.

[Tit 3:5 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[Rom 9:23-24 KJV]
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[rogerg]

What are you actually trying to say here? Every human is that so called natural person until they turn to Christ in faith of what He has done on our behalf.

You are espousing a doctrine of forced salvation, yet, this is not to be found in scripture

It is very much found in scripture - it is one of the bases of salvation
I understand your point (and I'm not trying to be rude here) but consider that if someone is born a natural man (or person) and
by being one, they are unable to comprehend things spiritual, how then can they to turn to Christ? The whole point of that
verse is that they can't, so, something must intervene to lift them from that spiritual dilemma, which intervention is salvation and
in becoming born-again- from which, by the Holy Spirit, the mind is renewed and they become able to understand the spiritual

[Eph 1:17 KJV]
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Salvation is for whosoever will. If it was only for the elect the verse would say so. God does not choose who will be saved. We choose "choose you this day". You're making God to be a liar when He said He didn't want anyone to go to hell. You're saying He chose half or more of the population to go to hell. What cruelty is that?! That no matter what you do, you are doomed to hell because you cannot be saved?! Is that what you are saying?!

yes those who end up damned are doing so not by Gods Will he is willing that all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth , so much so that he suffered greatly and shed his blood .

the damned will end up there because they refused to accept the word of God who is speaking salvstion to them. They loved the other words that make his word irrelevant to them.

mans place is to be subject unto Gods Will , not to reject his Will

 

[Avery]

Our accepting of Christ has nothing to do with becoming saved should we believe that is what caused it. Of course, everyone
who becomes saved accepts Christ but as a result of salvation, not its cause - salvation is solely a gift
The point is that all of us are of the wicked until we become saved- justified by Christ. It is from the judgment Adam and Eve brought to fruition unto mankind through the introduction the law of sin and death which we are all under from the womb.

The actual point is that I agreed with the fact we are all unacceptable to God until we accept Christ. You seem to employ a plan of forced salvation as if we all had an experience similar to Paul's when his was a marked exception. When, for example, Philip explained what Isaiah the prophet was writing about to the Eunuch, that same man accepted Christ and was also baptized. If what you profess is true, then shouldn't the Eunuch recognized who Isaiah was writing about?

The point was that Saul did not bask for mercy it was given to him because, and only because, God wanted it so, as it is with everyone who becomes saved. I was trying to demonstrate that receiving His mercy is not a question of our choice, but God's.
When anyone obtains God's mercy, it means they have been saved.

Please see the salvation of the Eunuch above as an example that really illustrates something different than what you are saying. Mercy does not mean force. We only obtain the mercy of God that He freely gives us because of His Son. What you do not seem to acknowledge, is that while a person may not accept your particular beliefs, they do not say they have somehow earned salvation apart from God.

[Tit 3:5 KJV]
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

[Rom 9:23-24 KJV]
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

'
Accepting Christ is not righteousness that we enact. We become the righteousness of God only in Christ, this is scripture, and the call is to all the world. Whosoever will means exactly that.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What point is there in trying to discuss the Bible with someone who tries to assert his belief over everyone else by conducting himself in a way that suggests that the truth is not the most important thing?

I can see why this thread is 147 pages long. It is my opinion that people who cannot stick to the actual dialogue are either attempting to gaslight everyone or, they have some deep internal fear that they could be wrong. It seems he has a whole strawman army and not just one of those things.

What point is there in trying to discuss the Bible with someone who tries to assert his belief over everyone else by conducting himself in a way that suggests that the truth is not the most important thing?

I can see why this thread is 147 pages long. It is my opinion that people who cannot stick to the actual dialogue are either attempting to gaslight everyone or, they have some deep internal fear that they could be wrong. It seems he has a whole strawman army and not just one of those things.

yes if you notice what they are actually saying is intended to get people away from believing the truth and thinking that it matters. Your saved either way , nothing you can do to change it your either chosen by God no matter what you do or you are damned by God no matter what you do.

yet Gods word tells us this to make it known

“Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;

but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-9‬ ‭

 

[Avery]

It is very much found in scripture - it is one of the bases of salvation
I understand your point (and I'm not trying to be rude here) but consider that if someone is born a natural man (or person) and
by being one, they are unable to comprehend things spiritual, how then can they to turn to Christ? The whole point of that
verse is that they can't, so, something must intervene to lift them from that spiritual dilemma, which intervention is salvation and
in becoming born-again- from which, by the Holy Spirit, the mind is renewed and they become able to understand the spiritual

[Eph 1:17 KJV]
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Well, you say your belief is found in scripture and I disagree. You are not going to convince me otherwise and I suspect the opposite is also true.

I do not see where you have made a case for believing that salvation is basically not our choice.

Obviously the Holy Spirit effects the circumstances of our choice for Christ, as He did for the eunuch. Not all who hear the truth acknowledge it as truth, but this we do by faith and not force.

I see no reason to continue in this thread that has gone on for almost 50 pages with no conclusion.

Over and out.

 

[Shakey]

In Calvinist theology, unconditional election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God chooses certain individuals to be saved. Those elected receive mercy, while those not elected, the reprobates, receive justice without condition. This unconditional election is essentially related to the rest of the TULIP doctrinal outline and hinges upon the supreme belief in the absolute sovereignty of God over the affairs of man. God unconditionally elects certain people even though they are sinful as an act of his saving grace apart from the shortcomings or will of man. Those chosen have done nothing to deserve this grace.

Eph 1:4-
4: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. 5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ himself, according to the good pleasures of his will. 6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7. In whom we have redemption in his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.

Definitions:
Us is the first person plural pronoun. Us is used as the object of a verb or a preposition. A speaker or writer uses us to refer both to himself or herself and to one or more other people.

We used by a speaker to refer to himself or herself and one or more other people considered together.

John 3:16 seems to suggest that Jesus died for ALL (ALL means ALL): “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Nothing within this proposition seems to suggest that God's Son perished for only the 'elect.

ALL: used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing.

Whoever: the person or people who; any person who.

I think we have to look at the Old and New Testament covenants, the old testament covenant was based on Levitical rules and laws to be followed in the sense of animal sacrifice to cover the sins of the people. I think the key here is rules and laws, the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees were driven by the law, and were corrupted by the law. Our creator, Father/Son/Holy Ghost, saw that we, yes we, ALL of us, could not follow His old testament steps for salvation. As we are ALL fallen since the book of Genesis. Introducing the New Covenant: Made by the last sacrifice ever needed by Jesus the Christ for ALL who will believe and receive Him. Matthew 27:51 "Behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent." This gives ALL of us full access to our God. WE have to choose to make that decision. Noah, built the ark for how long? All the while people mocked him, they ALL had a choice to make, believe or not believe, their choice to not accept the salvation of God and end up the the drink.

I simply believer WE ALL have a choice to make, follow God our creator, Jesus the Christ His son our savior or not and end up in a much warmer place. Nineveh had a choice to make when Jonah visited them, they chose God and not their sinful ways, Sodom and Gomorrah chose the opposite...they got warm really fast.

Not trying to ruffle feathers, but I don't believe God created ALL of US to intentionally send some of US to Hell. After all Lucifer, the most beautiful angel, he made a choice along with 1/3 of the angels. He chose to rebel, and paid the price.
We are given the great commission to take Jesus to the ends of the world, proclaiming His name that ALL will be saved. If a person chooses not accept, I think it's on them and reprobate mind that they refuse God, God does not refuse any who humbly come to Him for salvation.

Abba, Father, I pray that WE ALL will receive your words in our hearts, your convictions in our lives to continue the great commission you put before us. You accept ALL who believe and receive you, I thank you and praise you for your grace that you offer to ALL who accept you. We don't deserve your grace, but you freely give it, may WE ALL believe and receive your grace through your Sons sacrifice on the cross for ALL of us. Jesus' name I pray, Amen.

 

[Avery]

yes if you notice what they are actually saying is intended to get people away from believing the truth and thinking that it matters. Your saved either way , nothing you can do to change it your either chosen by God no matter what you do or you are damned by God no matter what you do.

We are saved only one way and that is through the sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf, God's provision for us, which He spoke of when He put out Adam and Eve from the garden.

People really ought to spend more time discussing Jesus and how He is revealed all through scripture rather than harping on particular verses that create a doctrine that appeals to them personally. There is only one thing that dams us and that would be turning our back to our Savior or refusing Him in the first place. Well there is also blasphemy against the Holy Spirit but that is probably a discussion for another thread.

Have a nice week-end!

 

[rogerg]

The actual point is that I agreed with the fact we are all unacceptable to God until we accept Christ. You seem to employ a plan of forced salvation as if we all had an experience similar to Paul's when his was a marked exception. When, for example, Philip explained what Isaiah the prophet was writing about to the Eunuch, that same man accepted Christ and was also baptized. If what you profess is true, then shouldn't the Eunuch recognized who Isaiah was writing about?

Respectfully, if you believe you are saved from/by accepting Christ I believe you are wrong. Were that possible, you would have become your own Saviour, but, Christ alone is the Saviour. It is He alone who must do the saving

Regarding Saul's salvation, everyone becomes saved the same way as there is only one salvation. God chose to make the saving of Paul visible so that Paul could serve as a model to us to observe the transition that it brought about in him.

[Act 9:15 KJV] 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

 

[Avery]

Respectfully, if you believe you are saved from/by accepting Christ I believe you are wrong. Were that possible, you would have become your own Saviour, but, Christ alone is the Saviour. It is He alone who must do the saving

Regarding Saul's salvation, everyone becomes saved the same way as there is only one salvation. God chose to make the saving of Paul visible so that Paul could serve as a model to us to observe the transition that it brought about in him.

[Act 9:15 KJV] 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Kindly read my post 2928 addressed to you. That is the last exchange I intend to make with regards to your doctrine of forced salvation. Sorry, not sorry.

 

[rogerg]

Please see the salvation of the Eunuch above as an example that really illustrates something different than what you are saying. Mercy does not mean force. We only obtain the mercy of God that He freely gives us because of His Son. What you do not seem to acknowledge, is that while a person may not accept your particular beliefs, they do not say they have somehow earned salvation apart from God.

Where do you see it mentioned that the Eunuch was saved because of that? The Eunuch was saved prior, but by his interaction with Phillip, learned about Christ, the gospel, and salvation - the Holy Spirit renewed his mind at that time - a different event than of becoming saved.

Accepting Christ is not righteousness that we enact. We become the righteousness of God only in Christ, this is scripture, and the call is to all the world. Whosoever will means exactly that.

The question is: how do you believe "accepting Christ" happens? Do you believe that it is an acceptance as a result of salvation, or, is it salvation as a result of acceptance?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

We are saved only one way and that is through the sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf, God's provision for us, which He spoke of when He put out Adam and Eve from the garden.

People really ought to spend more time discussing Jesus and how He is revealed all through scripture rather than harping on particular verses that create a doctrine that appeals to them personally. There is only one thing that dams us and that would be turning our back to our Savior or refusing Him in the first place. Well there is also blasphemy against the Holy Spirit but that is probably a discussion for another thread.

Have a nice week-end!

Oh it sounds like you are also creating your own idea of salvation and damnation .

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s the only thing that can save or damn anyone and while it includes christs death and resurrection it also includes the word he preached

 

[rogerg]

Kindly read my post 2928 addressed to you. That is the last exchange I intend to make with regards to your doctrine of forced salvation. Sorry, not sorry.

Oh, okay, no problem, I realize that not everyone can accept that Christ is the Saviour, most can't. Sorry I missed your termination notice.

 

[Shakey]

Where do you see it mentioned that the Eunuch was saved because of that? The Eunuch was saved prior, but by his interaction with Phillip, learned about Christ, the gospel, and salvation - the Holy Spirit renewed his mind at that time - a different event than of becoming saved.



The question is: how do you believe "accepting Christ" happens? Do you believe that it is an acceptance as a result of salvation, or, is it salvation as a result of acceptance?

Believe in the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ, confess/repent from your sins and you receive salvation. This does not mean you can turn back to your old sin ways, you now have a new heart in Christ.

 

[rogerg]

Believe in the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ, confess/repent from your sins and you receive salvation. This does not mean you can turn back to your old sin ways, you now have a new heart in Christ.

But true belief is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, upon becoming saved, upon becoming born-again. Please observe:

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

[Shakey]

But true belief is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, upon becoming saved, upon becoming born-again. Please observe:

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Not arguing that, first you have to believe, and receive Chris as your savior. Once you receive Christ he starts a new work in you, yes agree on the fruits of the spirit. Yes good works and faith through sacrifice of Christ on the cross who offers salvation free to ALL who come to Him.

John 14:6 “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Have a blessed weekend.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

LOL Do you actually think you intimidate me with your demands?

Do you think you actually intidate me with your mocking and bearing false witness?

I could care less what you think, But if your in sin I am going to call you out on it. Whether you like it or not

Tell me exactly which verses you're talking about and I'll reply, I've told you that two times already.,

Thats right, your going to try to teach me how I do not understand the word. When you do not even recognize the passage of the tax collector vs the pharisee (which by the way I posted)

Dude, Your hurting your own position by acting like you have no idea what I am talking about.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

One lump represents the elect, the other the non-elect. As I told you before, the Bible uses events in the OT to demonstrate
spiritual doctrine set-forth in the NT. Both lumps are symbolic of people God has chosen as different to group for different ends. Got it?

Nope

the lump represents ISREAL..

Again, You need to go to the OT passages where paul quoted and get the context. Because otherwise, Your making paul say somethign he never said.