Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

Gideon300 · Apr 15, 2022

LW97 said:

Cherry picking verses to come to a conclusion is not the right way to go about it. There are many verses that indicate that we are we are eternally secure in Christ. I don't know how it is possible to be unborn again. And that is what must happen for God to reject a believer. Yes, some will have no rewards in God's kingdom. Peter denied Jesus 3 times. Did he lose his salvation? I don't think so.

Gideon300 · Apr 15, 2022

LW97 said:

"Believing" is not necessarily believing to salvation. I was forced to go to church in my preteen years. I had no problem believing about Jesus. But it was little different from believing about Aristotle or Plato. The difference between intellectual acceptance of facts and believing in the heart is literally a matter of life and death.

The parable of the sower shows what happens in a lot of lives. People may superficially seem to accept, but there is no substance. Such people may seem to fall away, but there was never any reality in the first place.

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE · Apr 16, 2022

Gideon300 said:

Cherry picking verses to come to a conclusion is not the right way to go about it. There are many verses that indicate that we are we are eternally secure in Christ. I don't know how it is possible to be unborn again. And that is what must happen for God to reject a believer. Yes, some will have no rewards in God's kingdom. Peter denied Jesus 3 times. Did he lose his salvation? I don't think so.

Click to expand...

The people of Israel were chosen, yet many fell because of unbelief and sheer rebellion. In the end, after having broken the covenant to a million pieces, they killed t the Lord by using the Romans to do their dirty work. God chose them, but according to your logic, could they be unchosen?

Gideon300 · Apr 16, 2022

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE said:

God's covenant with Israel was based on Law. They were not born again, apart from the few who had the anointing such as Abraham, Moses, David and the Prophets.

There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile now. Israel exists to testify to the world that God keeps His word. And that is in spite of the best efforts of nations bent on their destruction. Lord Jesus preached to Jews, "You must be born again!"

In some ways, ancient Israel resembles the church today. According to statistics, about 4% of church attenders are born again. My experience agrees with that observation by others. Many are forsaking church membership and attendance. Good. The church is the Body of Christ, not a group of people with nothing better to do on Sundays or who think it's a religious duty.

1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

Chester · Apr 16, 2022

Gideon300 said:

Exactly right! Cherry picking verses is never the way to develop doctrine.

So, then let's start from Scripture. Can you give me just one verse that very clearly teaches that once a person is saved, that they will always be saved? I don't want verses that "support" the belief or lean in that direction, I want just one verse that states as fact that once a person is saved they will always be saved.

Gideon300 · Apr 16, 2022

Chester said:

You won't get it. God has not given us a systematic theology. His word is not an instruction manual. Lord Jesus said that no one shall pluck His people out of His hand. The opposing argument is that people can deliberately walk away. Which is right? I settled this argument in myself decades ago. I believe in the grace of God. I believe in his keeping power. I believe that eternal life is eternal life. I believe that God put me into Christ.

I believe that much of the confusion arises because there are two distinct salvations. The first is to be born again. That is instant and irreversible. The second salvation is the salvation of the soul. This is progressive and the process is lifelong. It is what Lord Jesus was referring to when he spoke of denying self and taking up the cross - every day. It is not automatic. People who avoid the cross, who refuse to let go of self will, suffer loss in the Kingdom of God. It costs nothing to be born again. It costs everything to be a true disciple and a kingdom Christian.

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE · Apr 16, 2022

Gideon300 said:

OK, I give you that, Israel was under the law, therefore there is no. more law, there is no more Israel. Old Israel lived around a temple and its old covenant laws (and principles), but once the temple was destroyed, Israel ceased to be the people of God because only through Christ they could have life. Similarly, today all we have is NOT the church, but the people of God who are truly born again because the church has been institutionalized to be another block of people who are nothing but "churchgoers."

But going back to your original words, "can born-again believers be unborn"? The answer is yes.

2 Peter 2:20–22 (NASB 2020)
20 "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

If we don't live by faith (in the Lord), we don't live at all.

GRACE_ambassador · Apr 16, 2022

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE said:

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to Chat. IF The Following 12 Dozen
Passages Are All True, then the answer would be "No," yes?:

God's OPERATION On all His New-born babes In Christ!
+
God's Eternal Assurance!

GRACE And Peace...

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE · Apr 16, 2022

GRACE_ambassador said:

My friend, I believe in eternal security with the condition to be faithful, but I don't believe that everyone who was truly born again in the past but went back to the world's lifestyle can after a while, can claim that his salvation is secure because he bought his fire insurance in the church and has an ID card to prove it (sarcasm). God will not be mocked, so as for me; I will dwell in His presence all the days of my life. I was saved by grace through faith, I live by grace through faith, and I will die in the everlasting arms of my gracious and loving Savior.

Now, will you please look at Heb. 6:4-8 and 2Pe. 2:20-22 and explain to me what these scriptures are there for since OSAS is factual?

PS I will not read your 12-point proof until you respond to my questions. Thanks!

Blade · Apr 16, 2022

So 193 pages later what did we come up with?

Since Jesus rose went up PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS YES! Not one believer has Christ told "you can lose your salvation/ you can never lose your salvation". To get around what is not written we say "ah they must have never been saved". Then we never found Him He found us. Then salvation comes from Him/heaven no here on earth. Then its supernatural not of this world. Also we can't even begin to truly understand this salvation. One would think after all those years before the bible NT or even OT was written someone would have asked "a am I always saved? Can I lose my salvation?" yet oddly its not written hmm. Seems GOD never gives us those thoughts. For me never get those thoughts. Well when I was first found the enemy would give me these kind of thoughts and doubts. But then found out God never ever gives us any thoughts of doubt. That should be a red flag.

I pray we remember all those that read and never post that might be weak in the faith. To cause anyone to stumble.. we will answer for.

Chester · Apr 16, 2022

Gideon300 said:

Well, you at least quoted a part of one verse: I assume you meant John 10:27, 28 which says in the KJV:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand

That is one of my favorite verses/promises in the Bible. The sheep (or as you say "his people") that are hearing his voice and that he is knowing and that are following Him, He is giving to them eternal life and they will not perish and no one will take them out of his hand. Praise the Lord for that beautiful promise to His sheep!

Oh, and you say that you believe eternal life is eternal life! Amen! I am sure glad that it is!

GRACE_ambassador · Apr 17, 2022

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE said:

GRACE_ambassador said:

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE said:

Thanks for clearly stating your view...

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE said:

Ok, point made... But, God's Word Of Truth: UNconditional ETERNAL Life!

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE said:

Agree (Galatians 6:7)

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE said:

Yes, there are those who are "truly born again" that will faithfully mature/grow
In His Amazing Grace. However, there are Also those "members" of The Body Of
Christ, who did not live/grow/mature (UNfaithful), and "will be ashamed" at The
Bema Judgment Of The Gracious And Loving Saviour, The Righteous Judge,
The LORD (and Head) JESUS CHRIST! According To The Scriptures, Correct? ie:

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the

flesh, that the spirit may be saved in The (Judgment) Day of

The LORD JESUS." (1 Corinthians 5:5)

Confirmed by:

"...If any (faithful) man's work abide which he hath built Thereupon,

he shall receive a reward. If any (UNfaithful) man's work shall be

burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so

as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:14-15)

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE said:

These Passages are, in Scriptural Fact, written to the HEBREWS, In God's Context
of "prophecy and law" (no osas in view), and not to the Body Of Christ, Today,
Under His Context of "The Revelation Of The Mystery And GRACE," found in
Romans through Philemon. These are being Mixed Up, and thus all the
Confusion and Contradictions. Thus:

God Has These Scriptures Written for Israel, who, under no osas, and in the
future Time Of Jacob's Trouble, will have to "endure to the end to be saved."
Correct? Thus we have to study Scriptures, Rightly Divided, to be
"Approved Unto God" (2Ti 2:15), Correct? ie:

Rightly Divided – "VERY Brief" Intro!

God's Context of:
"Prophecy/Law" {earthly} Christ And The TWELVE gospel of the kingdom,
ISRAEL {past/future} NO osas in view...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

God's Other Context Of:
"Mystery/GRACE!" {Heavenly!} Gospel Of GRACE, Jew And Gentile "Equal!"

{Current, Today!} for The Body Of CHRIST!

CHRIST, And ONE apostle TO THE GENTILES, our “Pattern to follow!”
(Romans 11:13; 1 Timothy 1:16; 1 Corinthians 4:16, 11:1; Ephesians 5:1;
fuller study in this "link"...)

So:

MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE said:

In God's Context Of: Mystery And GRACE, For The Body Of Christ, Today, we
find 144 (12-Dozen points of) Plain And Clear Passages Of His Word Of Truth.
Amen?:

God's OPERATION On all His New-born babes In Christ!
+
God's Eternal Assurance!
=
Conclusion: Eternal Assurance Is Based On "God's Faithfulness,"
not ours. Amen?

GRACE And Peace...

PS. IF more Scripture is needed for understanding Right Division?:

Distinctions of prophecy vs Mystery!

Precious friend, Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified!

EyeWitness · Apr 17, 2022

LW97, I am glad that you are receiving revelations from the Lord! It is refreshing.

God wills that all people be saved and remain saved. That is very reassuring. However, as you pointed out, apostacy has happened historically in the Church.

kenallen · Apr 18, 2022

LW97 said:

eternally-gratefull said:

I hope you are being sarcastic; but if you are not I hate to burst your bubble there is no eternal security . When we sin and we all do and don't ask for forgiveness yes we can fall out of grace. God will never leave us or forsake us but we can leave and forsake him,

Chester · Apr 18, 2022

kenallen said:

I prefer not to make the issue a doctrinal declaration of "once saved always saved" or its opposite "you can lose salvation".

For me it is enough to know that I am believing in Jesus Christ and have assurance and eternal life.
If I was not believing I would not have eternal life.
That is pretty simple.

kenallen · Apr 18, 2022

I agree if I make a mistake I just have to ask for forgiveness and try harder the next. I am not perfect but I do try my best to please God in all that I do.

ResidentAlien · Apr 18, 2022

John 15:

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me which does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch which bears fruit He prunes, so that it may bear more fruit."—vv. 1-2

Sure sounds like someone who was "in Him" but didn't follow through.

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."—v. 6

"By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples."—v. 8

GRACE_ambassador · Apr 18, 2022

kenallen said:

Precious friend, how would that be possible IF "HE Is The New Owner"? ie:

1Co 6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple

of The Holy Ghost Which is in you, Which ye have Of God, and

ye are not your own?" (cp Romans 14:8)

Will not the entire "Purchased Possession Be Redeemed"?:

"[The Holy Spirit Of Promise (vs 13)]:

Which is The Earnest of our inheritance until

The Redemption Of The Purchased Possession,

unto The Praise Of His Glory." (Ephesians_1:14)

Conclusion:
If "we save ourselves," then "Christ Died In Vain," Correct?

Much More "Eternal Security" is found in about 12 Dozen Scriptures:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In Christ!
+
God's FREE Gift ETERNAL Life!
-------------------------------------------
GRACE And Peace...

Grandpa · Apr 18, 2022

Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

John 10:26-29
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Our Faith is in the Lord Jesus. Because of the Lord Jesus we have eternal life.

If you think He can fail or you think He has lied, then you don't have faith in the Lord Jesus.

If you don't understand this then you don't understand Salvation. If you think you can lose Salvation then your faith is in YOURSELF and not in the Lord Jesus.

Nehemiah6 · Apr 18, 2022

Grandpa said:

Exactly. I believe all this boils down to a serious lack of understanding of the meaning of salvation and the declarations in Scripture that "Salvation is of the LORD" and that Jesus is in fact "GOD our Salvation".
That is exactly what Yeshua (or Yahshua) means.

Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

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